Time to increase gap in raid loot?

[Frolk]

Of course the ideal situation is to remove Titanforging, but if Titanforging is here to stay, then I think it might be time to revisit the 15 ilvl gap between each tier. 15 item levels is far too small of a gap in a world where non-Mythic gear can proc upwards of 50 item levels. Most of the loot is disenchanted when a mythic boss is killed for the first time which is not fun for anyone. Here are the gaps I propose:

LFR --> N = +15 ilvls
N --> H = +20 ilvls
H --> M = +25 ilvls

For example, ToS would drop 900N/920H/945M gear with the 955 TF cap.

Any thoughts about this?

Yes, but stuff shouldt tf-above next tier, like normal gear should only TF to max of 920 and hc to 945.

For the moment, mythic loot is for most of it NOT worth the effort. And yes, a lot of people raid for loot, some say they raid for "boss kills", but they get happy when they get that 950TF+ item.
Id like for em to either do TFing as i stated earlier, or have mythic loot be able to TF higher than non-mythic, say lfr/norm/hc cap is still 955, but mytic loot could TF to 965-970.

[mhdoe]

Have to disagree gear levels are fine if you are at the mythic level of raiding your looking for stats and numbers to min/max as much as possible not item level. Most people who are worried about item level are just wanting other people to be impressed by it. Personally I am not impressed by item level (wish there was a way to just drop it altogether) what is impressive are people who have achievement for things like mythic ahead of the curve, world first's and so on.

[Khallid]

The reason is because Titanforging is actually good for the game the way it is. You should be able to do any piece of content and have the chance of being rewarded with something higher. It gives you incentives to do other parts of the content rather than one area. If you know it's going to cap out at X lvl then you'll get to a point where you aren't wanting to do it because it gives you nothing. Titanforging helps give parts of the game an incentive to still be active. If World Quests has a cap then after you are X ilvl you wouldn't even consider doing them. That in turns starts to make WQ useless and then that part of the content is gone. This continue to applies to other areas of the game.

It's all nice and dandy that solo content can titanforge. However, the argument that "world quests stay relevant" is completely false. Nobody repeats World Quests looking for gear. They're set up so low that the chance of getting an upgrade is essentially zero. The only reason we keep doing world quests is because they give a lot of AP, and I think that part works really well.

The issue is that endgame raids are currently set to tiered difficulties with lockouts. The lockouts and the multiple difficulties are what clashes with the titanforge system, because it "incentivizes" a group to repeat cleared content at lower difficulties instead of focusing on progress. The problem lies in the fact that there are only 15 item levels between each difficulty, so the chances to get an upgrade there are not close to zero. The problem increases when "regular" mythic gear becomes obsolete because you need titanforged mythic now. It's not game-breaking in my opinion, but it doesn't make logical sense that luck can give you better rewards than clearing harder content.

[Chickat]

Titanforging should be capped at the next tier up tbh.

Lfr 900
Normal 915
Heroic-930
Mythic 945

TF lfr 915
TF Normal 930
TF Heroic 945
TF Mythic 955 or 960.

[HuxNeva]

The current system gives you the same loot in LFR as you get in mythic, of course it's stupid.

You are failing Statistics 101. Even the most cursory glance at wowprogress could have shown you that it does not. For guilds during active raiding, average ilvl equipped correlated nicely with progress.

[Raiju]

You are failing Statistics 101. Even the most cursory glance at wowprogress could have shown you that it does not. For guilds during active raiding, average ilvl equipped correlated nicely with progress.

average ilvl correlated nicely with splits and seasonal mythic+ clears*

[kamuimac]

Of course mythic should reward better loot than normal or LFR. What are you on about?
The current system is 100% stupid.

you mean the system where mythic offers 45 itlv higher loot then lfr is 100 % stupid and not rewarding eh ?

i wonder which game are you playing

- - - Updated - - -

Titanforging should be capped at the next tier up tbh.

Lfr 900
Normal 915
Heroic-930
Mythic 945

TF lfr 915
TF Normal 930
TF Heroic 945
TF Mythic 955 or 960.

capping titanforging would defeat its purpose

its goal is that even if 940 itlv player goes to normal ToS he has low chance to get upgrade

its working perfeckly well

so no matter how much wannabe hardcores will whine its here to stay

and the more it pisses them the better

- - - Updated - - -

It's all nice and dandy that solo content can titanforge. However, the argument that "world quests stay relevant" is completely false. Nobody repeats World Quests looking for gear.

and you know it how ?

just because none of you friends do that it doesnt mean average joe doesnt treat it as content to clear.

the best example are world bosses droping 860 itlv - its complete shit gear by stnadards of what argus drops and yet ton of groups form weekly to kill them. so people do world quests for gear even if you think they do not.

[Echocho]

Are you insane? Caps needs to be shrunk, not increased. We've gone up 200 iLvls in Legion, it should be more like 60. They need to go back and change this retroactively too to get rid of the insane power creep.

[Cheze]

our raid does heroic every week on an off night and with 15-20 people we generally see only a handful of 930 or higher items

everybody's been in a raid where somebody got a crazy high TF item from normal or raid finder or something (my warlock has a 915 normal t19 cloak) but it's so vanishingly rare as to not be worth getting upset about. People who're just farming heroic every week have nowhere near the gear that people raiding mythic do

[Aggrophobic]

There is no issue other than the imaginary ones you and others are making up. You feel as if Mythic raiding is some grand holy level that if people can't do it they shouldn't be rewarded with gear equal to it.

Of course they shouldn't be rewarded with as good gear.
You pay or reward people after thier achivements and work put in. Rewards for doing basically nothing makes players lazy and it's hardly good for the game.

It's the same concept as in real life. You don't pay out management salary to people that lay around on the couch all day. It just doesn't make sense.

[klaps_05]

They need to reduce the crazy high titanforges from content that really should be obsolete for a player.

All they need to do is make the Mythic raid baseline loot the cap for titanforged gear from lower tier content, or +15 cap if the item the item exceeds the mythic raid gear cap(examples below).

So for ToS as current tier, any other gear other than ToS Mythic raid loot can only titanforge up-to 930. And Mythic raid loot can go +15 as it is now. Gear from Heroic KJ which is 925 can still go up to 940 and will cap there.

So in a "short" list:
Heroic dungeon gear: 845 <---> 930
Mythic dungeon gear: 865 <---> 930
Mythic+ dungeon gear: 885-915 <---> 930
Mythic+ Weekly reward: 900-915 <---> 930 // after 915 weekly reward, always +15 is max, so current max with 935 guaranteed is 950 iLvl.

Normal ToS gear: 900 <---> 930
Normal KJ gear: 910 <---> 930

Heroic ToS gear: 915 <---> 930
Heroic KJ gear: 925 <---> 940

Mythic ToS gear: 930 <---> 955
Mythic KJ gear: 940 <---> 955

This change will make Mythic raids again the best way to obtain the best gear in the game. People who don't have time to commit to Mythic or are less skilled can still get Mythic baseline iLvl gear if they get lucky. However if they want to get the best gear, they need to put in the effort to get it.

the whole PURPOSE of the system is so that lower difficulty can give you items which can be obtained from higher difficulty. This makes the barrier to entry into higher difficulty lower for the player, regardless if he wants to transition or not. This is the reason why Blizzard considers the system a success.

[Deleted]

the whole PURPOSE of the system is so that lower difficulty can give you items which can be obtained from higher difficulty. This makes the barrier to entry into higher difficulty lower for the player, regardless if he wants to transition or not. This is the reason why Blizzard considers the system a success.

I would argue it makes the entry bar much higher than before and the loot farming demands of guilds wanting to clear mythic a lot higher.

Groups that form will often ask for extreme requirements, far above what is needed to clear the raid, do the dungeon, etc. In a TF world, there's no reason why people wouldn't ask for such requirements, and even if they don't...they will have applicants with much higher ilvl than the average guy getting TF lucky.

Raid wise, since Titanforging normal and heroic items is such a common instance, Blizzard has to tune around this ( in the later bosses). This means that rank 50-300 guilds that used to outgear endbosses(compared to rank1-10 kills, usually by 10+ilvls) no longer do so. Many of those guilds are then forced to wait for Blizzard nerfs and catchups(like the crucible system). While this happens, they sometimes random a max TF ivl item, but they lose far more players waiting for nerfs in the process.The best example of this is ToS.

I personally think killing a boss for the purpose of getting an item that isn't even in his loot table is nonsense. The benefit to Blizzard is extending the average consumer's sub in the hope that next week they get lucky.

[Adlian]

LFR/Normal/HC gear should be able to TF up to the base Mythic gear ilvl. Whats the point of doing a difficult content when you can get the same ilvl by doing normal/heroic? I even saw a paladin who is doing 200k dps getting a 955 trinket from LFR...

[shaunika123]

The current system isn't stupid and anyone who thinks it is, is more upset that other people can get to their ilvl too without having to do what they do



"

no, that's not the problem, the problem is that when we killed mythic kiljaeden we DEd 1 item and 2 got given for offspec and only one for a mainspec( which was an 5 ilvl upgrade on one of his relics)

a final boss on the hardest difficulty (and one of the hardest bosses ever in this game) should have a bigger reward than one 5 ilvl upgrade on a relic when you kill him for the very first time

the whole PURPOSE of the system is so that lower difficulty can give you items which can be obtained from higher difficulty. This makes the barrier to entry into higher difficulty lower for the player, regardless if he wants to transition or not. This is the reason why Blizzard considers the system a success.

you'd think that, but in reality mythic bosses are basically balanced around having TF gear all over you

[Deleted]

If Mythic guilds feel they need to run previous raids to stay competitive then that is an issue they've created. Nowhere does it say that they need to run Nighthold Mythic in order to stay competitive or anything like that. They have the current tier and can put it on farm. Run it so you get your titanforges a lot easier.

Sure old content has some decent trinkets you could still, but this has always been the case and there's nothing wrong with it. In fact that encourages those individuals to try and create their own raids which gets more of the community involved.

With that logic problems would never be solved. I still stand with everyone in the mythic raiding community that TF is a bad system, going from the fact that you can get mythic item level loot from being lucky by doing trivial content and potentially even being much stronger than any loot that's available in mythic raids, to the fact that you have to invest time into running after those items. Not to mention the frustration the system brings when your item doesn't TF.

The solution is easy, the TF needs to cap at +15 item level above the base item level.

[Lucetia]

average ilvl correlated nicely with splits and seasonal mythic+ clears*

Oh, so you mean exactly what people were doing in all the past expansions. Except instead of additional alt runs they can siphon into mythic+. So what people are doing now has always been there.

The only the high end raiders don't like is that they feel forced to do the split/alt runs to stay competitive. This is a choice they make however and no one is forcing them. There really is no ideal solution to cut off alt runs. The issue with alt runs and getting gear and titanforging are two different things.

People are so bent up with lumping Titanforging into everything and trying to make an issue out of nothing because it ruins their perception of anything or even their "prestige" level.

Of course they shouldn't be rewarded with as good gear.
You pay or reward people after thier achivements and work put in. Rewards for doing basically nothing makes players lazy and it's hardly good for the game.

It's the same concept as in real life. You don't pay out management salary to people that lay around on the couch all day. It just doesn't make sense.

So basically Mythic mode returning to what's its original idea was is a bad thing. Mythic mode is a challenge that you are suppose to overcome. By doing so you can brag about how good you are that you cleared it. Mythic mode isn't about the gear exactly, but the "prestige" you get from clearing something. Mythic mode also gets it's own colors / visual upgrades on gear. Along with mounts (at some times) and other things. Gear was added so people have an "incentive" other than prestige to do it because why people say they want "challenging" content so they can brag and be cool at the end of the day they still want some gear. So they added gear and requires way less chance to titanforge to cap which in turn lets any additional rolls go towards socketing / tetriary.

This can be see with Challenge Modes in MoP / Draenor. People wanted a challenge but way less did it because there was no gear involved. Blizzard's solution was Mythic+ and then all of a sudden it's booming like no other. People get a timed challenge ("that scales") and they get a piece of loot to show for it.

a final boss on the hardest difficulty (and one of the hardest bosses ever in this game) should have a bigger reward than one 5 ilvl upgrade on a relic when you kill him for the very first time

Except Kil'jaeden did have more rewards. The difference is people didn't like the rewards. You have chances for 4-5 pieces of loot (can't remember number offhand), you got a Mythic: Kil'jaeden achievement and the title "X the Darkener", some got Realm First! Kiljaeden achievement.

People would rather see shiny gear because then they can flex their epeen or whatever when people hover over them and go "OMG They like totally killed Mythic Kil'jaeden they are like so amazing" instead of being happy with themselves that they killed the hardest boss in the game at the time. People act like they need the approval of everyone around them so they can stand out. This is why Mythic has it's own colors and sometimes flashy effects.

You can't also blame bad RNG on drops for why "loot feels terrible on first drop". This has always existed. If you could cherry pick what drops then you'd feel more amazed because you guys got what you want. Every boss has essentially "crap loot". You could have a 935 item on and have a titanforged 955 piece drop and it still be so crap you don't want to use it because of secondaries, procs, etc.

you'd think that, but in reality mythic bosses are basically balanced around having TF gear all over you

Really? I guess every guild that cleared it has had full Titanforged gear, all netherlight crucible traits, maxed out artifact too huh? Oh wait they didn't. That's because it's not balanced around having full Titanforged gear. The difference is most of the playerbase needs that full titanforged gear, netherlight and more artifact levels. Why? Because it's extremely challenging content and they are slowly realizing that they aren't as good as they once assumed. In the past they had higher gear to help compensate (this time presented in Titanforged gear, Netherlight Crucible and more artifact traits this tier).

With that logic problems would never be solved. I still stand with everyone in the mythic raiding community that TF is a bad system, going from the fact that you can get mythic item level loot from being lucky by doing trivial content and potentially even being much stronger than any loot that's available in mythic raids, to the fact that you have to invest time into running after those items. Not to mention the frustration the system brings when your item doesn't TF.

The solution is easy, the TF needs to cap at +15 item level above the base item level.

Except I would almost bet not the entire mythic raiding community feels this way. The % is probably pretty small but the "vocal few" apparently speak for all.

Yes, you have the potential and again the odds are so small it's not even an issue, but everyone see's Joe, Dan, Bob or anyone else with 1 piece and they start flipping their lid complaining about how it's not fair. You don't have to invest time in it, the reason you feel like you need to invest your time into it is because you think you need to. Unless you are in one of the Top 50 raiding guilds, doing old content isn't going to make or break you doing things. Not getting an item to titanforge can be disappointing, but that's because you are expecting it too. It's implemented so you don't expect it. You expect it to be at base iLvL and then when it titanforges you can be happy. Expecting something to always happens leads to disappointment.

No, the solution is not to cap it as we go back to what happened in previous expansion and cause subs to start to decline and people get less interested in content.

[Orwell7]

If Mythic guilds feel they need to run previous raids to stay competitive then that is an issue they've created. Nowhere does it say that they need to run Nighthold Mythic in order to stay competitive or anything like that. They have the current tier and can put it on farm. Run it so you get your titanforges a lot easier.

Sure old content has some decent trinkets you could still, but this has always been the case and there's nothing wrong with it. In fact that encourages those individuals to try and create their own raids which gets more of the community involved.

Hi,

I'm writing to you just because you are a moderator and there is a slight chance this will get to Blizzard developers.

Please try to understand player who are NOT you. Who are thinking differently, want different things from this game. Blizz itself said they have a very diverse playerbase, who like to play this game for different reasons.

I try to speak for the raiders, who have absolved all of the highest raiding content in this game since BC. Vanilla raiding was a lot different than bc-wotlk-cata-mop-wod combined. The problem "we" have, (and please don't make your argument that "I" cannot speak for the majority of players. I'm not, but ALL of my friends in this game are heroic/mythic raiders, who strive for killing EVERYTHING before the next tier comes out. Yes, all)
, is that Legion is almost as different from the golden bc-wotlk-cata-mop-wod era than vanilla was.

With Legion, the difference mainly is Titanforging and Legendaries - both incentivize to run all content this expansion has to offer.
There are incentives to do all M0's, do Invasion Points, previous raids on all difficulties (!!!), and even kill the rare elites for legendaries.
For the best gear, praying for lucky procs with relics on your weekly chest (or high-level M+ keys) is the only way. The more you flip the slot machine, the more you "win" - and only paying with your time.

And here comes the best part: TIME.

I, again, speak for ALL my friends who play this game, and we have the same interests: killing the endboss on the highest difficulty. I speak for about 50-60 people. Some are still playing, some are not - but when they DO have a subscription, the end goal is to get cutting edge. Again, I understand that there are players who don't want this and just want some shiny free loot, I don't care about them. They CAN have it, I'm not jealous or something - I speak for what I (we) want, ok?

In bc-wotlk-cata-mop-wod, we could MAX our characters with X amount of time.
In Legion, we CANNOT max our character at all. I can play 100X amount of time and still don't feel maxed. There was "fun" little parts with Warforged items and the like, and I don't count them as a "need" to get maxed - they were fun little bonuses, +8 item levels was minor.

Previously, we have farmed what we could do on a weekly basis, and felt good about it. We did what was necessary, and have an even ground with all other guilds. It created a nice, paced competition. Now who "wins"? The guild with the most time on their hands. I am not talking about the top 1-2%, because they are obvious outliers (and have all the time they need for this), I am talking about the friendly backyard soccer competition. Guilds placed in world 200-2000 maybe.

Blizzard created this "hostile" environment, where the best players -who have the most time, mind you- are constantly bashing players with maybe equal skill, but less time to farm.
I leveled up my mage in 2016 september, and I still don't have the bis frost bracers. I have farmed EN-TOV-NH lfr/normal/heroic for months. And yes, I got fed up, because I FEEL that I cannot compete with players of my skill level, because they have an obvious advantage.

In bc-wotlk-etc., there were weeks when I didn't have the best trinkets/weapons, and that was fair. Our raid group was on a similar gear level than others. Now, at the start of Legion, our core raid group of 20 players got 3-4 dps legendaries, the rest were utility ones. Note that this was before the balancing, and I admit that the situation is a LOT better now, but I rather have the system deleted.

So ultimately what WE miss, and I'm sure there are a lot of other players who thinking similarly to us, is the even ground which can be achieved in a SHORT TIME!
Now, lets talk about alts. I usually had 2-3 raid-ready characters, who can switch on the main raid's needs.
I can't do that anymore. And yes, I used to it for YEARS and now the game has changed, I barely have time for my main!

I don't care if a pet battler gets a 955 titanforged loot. And, you know, she/he does not care either!
The casual player who does 1 heroic dungeon a week for fun, does not care either.
The grandma who wants to know the story and does 1 LFR wing / month does not care either.

So why do you think it matters to the "masses" who don't want to raid Mythic?

"Nowhere does it say that they need to run Nighthold Mythic in order to stay competitive or anything like that. They have the current tier and can put it on farm"
Uhm.. no. The problem is, again, that we got used to a system that got changed. We USED TO only farm the highest difficulties of raids to be "cutting edge", now we have to do everything to stay competitive.
And don't make the argument again that "you are not skilled enough" - do you know what we play? AN RPG when your character is getting MORE AND MORE POWERFUL!!
If you want a skill-based game, don't play WoW, period. WoW and all gearing systems are MEANT to make the game easier over time! Please, PLEASE understand this!
Yes, we are not Method, we are not even top 200. But we still managed to kill every single endboss before the next tier.
Nowadays it gets harder and harder, and I blame TF and Legendaries. People cannot just switch to OP classes anymore, because they are not in the gear required.


TLDR:
-if you want to feel "the best", you have to play 5-10x as much as in previous expansions. Trinkets/Relics are the most contributing DPS factors, and you need to do every possible chance to proc them OVER the standard Mythic level.
-I used to play 3-4 characters at the maximum level, and now, with the same amount of time, I only have 1 fully geared and this bothers me
-this means that we cannot cheese endbosses with optimal class-setups
-yes, we are not skilled like Method, BUT we managed to kill every single endboss before the next tier. Why Blizz changed the difficulty so much?
-I'm sure that without TF/Legendary system, we would have been able to kill KJ, because we have had all our characters geared and could switch as necessary. Now we barely have time to play 1-2 characters to their potential
-oh and I'm not talking about the FUN of getting your game "maxed"

thanks for reading

[Aggrophobic]

Oh, so you mean exactly what people were doing in all the past expansions. Except instead of additional alt runs they can siphon into mythic+. So what people are doing now has always been there.

The only the high end raiders don't like is that they feel forced to do the split/alt runs to stay competitive. This is a choice they make however and no one is forcing them. There really is no ideal solution to cut off alt runs. The issue with alt runs and getting gear and titanforging are two different things.

People are so bent up with lumping Titanforging into everything and trying to make an issue out of nothing because it ruins their perception of anything or even their "prestige" level.



So basically Mythic mode returning to what's its original idea was is a bad thing. Mythic mode is a challenge that you are suppose to overcome. By doing so you can brag about how good you are that you cleared it. Mythic mode isn't about the gear exactly, but the "prestige" you get from clearing something. Mythic mode also gets it's own colors / visual upgrades on gear. Along with mounts (at some times) and other things. Gear was added so people have an "incentive" other than prestige to do it because why people say they want "challenging" content so they can brag and be cool at the end of the day they still want some gear. So they added gear and requires way less chance to titanforge to cap which in turn lets any additional rolls go towards socketing / tetriary.

This can be see with Challenge Modes in MoP / Draenor. People wanted a challenge but way less did it because there was no gear involved. Blizzard's solution was Mythic+ and then all of a sudden it's booming like no other. People get a timed challenge ("that scales") and they get a piece of loot to show for it.



Except Kil'jaeden did have more rewards. The difference is people didn't like the rewards. You have chances for 4-5 pieces of loot (can't remember number offhand), you got a Mythic: Kil'jaeden achievement and the title "X the Darkener", some got Realm First! Kiljaeden achievement.

People would rather see shiny gear because then they can flex their epeen or whatever when people hover over them and go "OMG They like totally killed Mythic Kil'jaeden they are like so amazing" instead of being happy with themselves that they killed the hardest boss in the game at the time. People act like they need the approval of everyone around them so they can stand out. This is why Mythic has it's own colors and sometimes flashy effects.

You can't also blame bad RNG on drops for why "loot feels terrible on first drop". This has always existed. If you could cherry pick what drops then you'd feel more amazed because you guys got what you want. Every boss has essentially "crap loot". You could have a 935 item on and have a titanforged 955 piece drop and it still be so crap you don't want to use it because of secondaries, procs, etc.



Really? I guess every guild that cleared it has had full Titanforged gear, all netherlight crucible traits, maxed out artifact too huh? Oh wait they didn't. That's because it's not balanced around having full Titanforged gear. The difference is most of the playerbase needs that full titanforged gear, netherlight and more artifact levels. Why? Because it's extremely challenging content and they are slowly realizing that they aren't as good as they once assumed. In the past they had higher gear to help compensate (this time presented in Titanforged gear, Netherlight Crucible and more artifact traits this tier).



Except I would almost bet not the entire mythic raiding community feels this way. The % is probably pretty small but the "vocal few" apparently speak for all.

Yes, you have the potential and again the odds are so small it's not even an issue, but everyone see's Joe, Dan, Bob or anyone else with 1 piece and they start flipping their lid complaining about how it's not fair. You don't have to invest time in it, the reason you feel like you need to invest your time into it is because you think you need to. Unless you are in one of the Top 50 raiding guilds, doing old content isn't going to make or break you doing things. Not getting an item to titanforge can be disappointing, but that's because you are expecting it too. It's implemented so you don't expect it. You expect it to be at base iLvL and then when it titanforges you can be happy. Expecting something to always happens leads to disappointment.

No, the solution is not to cap it as we go back to what happened in previous expansion and cause subs to start to decline and people get less interested in content.

These rants are getting you nowhere.
Give it up. You're not even making any sense anymore.

[Lucetia]

The problem "we" have, (and please don't make your argument that "I" cannot speak for the majority of players.
I, again, speak for ALL my friends who play this game, and we have the same interests

I'm sorry, but yes the argument is perfectly valid. No one person can ever truly speak for everyone they believe they can. Just because people tell you something doesn't always mean that is what they believe. As some people tend to tell others what they want to hear as to not upset them, get into an argument ever. Trying to have a civial conversation and saying "I speak for ALL" doesn't help it much to start with. You need to present only your ideas because that is the only person you are able to truly represent.

Please try to understand player who are NOT you. Who are thinking differently, want different things from this game. Blizz itself said they have a very diverse playerbase, who like to play this game for different reasons.

No one is denying there are multiple types of people playing this game. I see the other side presented by others, but the problem is all of their "problems" are more on their need to feel better than others and make others know it type mentality. Not everyone is like that, but every "argument" presented against it points that way.

With Legion, the difference mainly is Titanforging and Legendaries - both incentivize to run all content this expansion has to offer.
There are incentives to do all M0's, do Invasion Points, previous raids on all difficulties (!!!), and even kill the rare elites for legendaries.
For the best gear, praying for lucky procs with relics on your weekly chest (or high-level M+ keys) is the only way. The more you flip the slot machine, the more you "win" - and only paying with your time.

Legendaries has absolutely zero to do with Titanforging and you can't relate the two as you did. Legendaries are an entirely different issue. Trying to use them in an argument about Titanforging doesn't help any because the two are correlated with how they work.

You also sound like you are upset that there are incentives to always do Mythic+, Invasion Points, previous raids, rare elites, etc. That is the exact point of why they did Titanforging. No piece of content during the time of it's expansion should feel so completely unrewarding that it's a waste of time. Emerald Nightmare doesn't drop the greatest loot, but if you were to run it you have a chance. The odds of getting Emerald Nightmare gear to titanforge to Tomb of Sargeras levels is so rare that if it did happen I'd wonder if I got hit with lightning next or win the lottery.

Titanforging gives you a reason to go do these activities, whether on your alt, helping out friends or just going for transmog gear.

I, again, speak for ALL my friends who play this game, and we have the same interests: killing the endboss on the highest difficulty. I speak for about 50-60 people. Some are still playing, some are not - but when they DO have a subscription, the end goal is to get cutting edge. Again, I understand that there are players who don't want this and just want some shiny free loot, I don't care about them. They CAN have it, I'm not jealous or something - I speak for what I (we) want, ok?

Again, no you don't speak for everyone. Admit it and be plain and simple you speak only for yourself, there is nothing wrong with it. Don't attempt to hide behind "we" statement as it doesn't help with getting your point across.

Did I miss somewhere on how you weren't able to get Cutting Edge? It's still in the game and you are still able to complete all these tasks. Titanforging has nothing to do with that. Your issues here, again, seem to be about something else instead of Titanforging.

Blizzard created this "hostile" environment, where the best players -who have the most time, mind you- are constantly bashing players with maybe equal skill, but less time to farm.

Blizzard didn't create that environment. The playerbase did. You can't blame the actuals of the entire playerbase on a company. Unless someone has some kind of proof of Blizzard talking to these people and asking them to do these things and at that point I'd admit I was wrong.

The "hostile" environment you speak of has always existed and has nothing to do with Legion only. People always ridiculed others because they were only at X level and they were Y level. This is nothing new.

I leveled up my mage in 2016 september, and I still don't have the bis frost bracers. I have farmed EN-TOV-NH lfr/normal/heroic for months. And yes, I got fed up, because I FEEL that I cannot compete with players of my skill level, because they have an obvious advantage.

If you have farmed truly as much as you said you did then you would have it by now. Mages only have 23 legendaries there are people with even more on other classes. But I digress this issue is something completely different and doesn't involve Titanforging, which the conversation is about.

In bc-wotlk-etc., there were weeks when I didn't have the best trinkets/weapons, and that was fair. Our raid group was on a similar gear level than others.

Nothing has changed you are still on a similar gear level as others doing the content you are doing. Stop pretending everyone has +20-40 iLvLs over your entire group while this isn't the case.

Now, at the start of Legion, our core raid group of 20 players got 3-4 dps legendaries, the rest were utility ones. Note that this was before the balancing, and I admit that the situation is a LOT better now, but I rather have the system deleted.

Again STOP bringing up Legendaries as to why you think Titanforging is bad. The two systems are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. It's not helping you present your side.

So ultimately what WE miss, and I'm sure there are a lot of other players who thinking similarly to us, is the even ground which can be achieved in a SHORT TIME!

While I know this is about legendaries again, it kind of goes with titanforging somewhat. People have always been upset you can invest more time and not get rewarded for it. Now you claim "everyone" is upset that you want to spend less time and get the same rewards? Yeah, no.

Now, lets talk about alts. I usually had 2-3 raid-ready characters, who can switch on the main raid's needs.

Yes, you can. Stop blaming Legendaries for Titanforging. It has NOTHING to do with this conversation.

I can't do that anymore. And yes, I used to it for YEARS and now the game has changed, I barely have time for my main!

Legendaries does not equate to Titanforging.

I don't care if a pet battler gets a 955 titanforged loot. And, you know, she/he does not care either!
The casual player who does 1 heroic dungeon a week for fun, does not care either.
The grandma who wants to know the story and does 1 LFR wing / month does not care either.

So you supposebly speak for "everyone" and say you don't care when randoms get high ilvl loot, but clearly others say they do. Now which is it? That's right, because you nor they can speak for everyone and goes back to the very first quote I did on you about it.

So why do you think it matters to the "masses" who don't want to raid Mythic?

This is because your argument is nothing about Titanforging, but about Legendaries. The two aren't the same.

"Nowhere does it say that they need to run Nighthold Mythic in order to stay competitive or anything like that. They have the current tier and can put it on farm"
Uhm.. no. The problem is, again, that we got used to a system that got changed. We USED TO only farm the highest difficulties of raids to be "cutting edge", now we have to do everything to stay competitive.

No you do not. STOP equating Legendaries to Titanforging.

And don't make the argument again that "you are not skilled enough" - do you know what we play? AN RPG when your character is getting MORE AND MORE POWERFUL!!
If you want a skill-based game, don't play WoW, period. WoW and all gearing systems are MEANT to make the game easier over time! Please, PLEASE understand this!
Yes, we are not Method, we are not even top 200. But we still managed to kill every single endboss before the next tier.
Nowadays it gets harder and harder, and I blame TF and Legendaries. People cannot just switch to OP classes anymore, because they are not in the gear required.

Except Titanforging doesn't affect this. You are once again not separating the two and adding Legendaries to your argument because you help feel it pushes it to the forefront, it doesn't. It just makes it so you can't preset your idea in the way it needs to be so most people will only look at that aspect.

If you aren't able to clear Mythic raids with 940 loot and need Titanforge / Netherlight / etc then yes that means you aren't "skilled". Skilled in this case means being able to move out of things, not get killed, etc. Getting more power is nice, but you shouldn't rely on getting more power to "brute force" your way through something.

If you feel like having all 940 gear with ~50-60 concordance traits aren't possible on Kil'jaeden then you need to look at the actual fight and contents. Is it overtuned? Perhaps some things need tweaking, etc. If you rely on strict power upgrades to overcome the challenge then you aren't doing the actual challenge itself, you are rely on artificial upgrades to carry you. This is the equivalent of say 101 twinks. They aren't able to clear dungeons on their own and rely on others, but with twink gear they are able to clear the entire dungeon. Was it tuned properly for them to start with? Yes. Having that extra power though gave them the ability to blitz through it to negate the challenges.

There are mythic guilds who proved you don't need 940 gear, netherlight, etc to clear the encounters. So if you are having a hard time doing so as well then that leaves one thing apparent. Your guild isn't as skilled as it thought it was and relied strictly on power upgrades. Which is fine and there's nothing wrong with it. Using it to blame why something is bad though doesn't help.

-if you want to feel "the best", you have to play 5-10x as much as in previous expansions. Trinkets/Relics are the most contributing DPS factors, and you need to do every possible chance to proc them OVER the standard Mythic level.
-I used to play 3-4 characters at the maximum level, and now, with the same amount of time, I only have 1 fully geared and this bothers me
-this means that we cannot cheese endbosses with optimal class-setups
-yes, we are not skilled like Method, BUT we managed to kill every single endboss before the next tier. Why Blizz changed the difficulty so much?
-I'm sure that without TF/Legendary system, we would have been able to kill KJ, because we have had all our characters geared and could switch as necessary. Now we barely have time to play 1-2 characters to their potential
-oh and I'm not talking about the FUN of getting your game "maxed"

These are all personal choices you made. There are plenty of people who have geared out toons that are raid ready at various levels of the game. Some people have multiple alts fully geared with Heroic Tomb of Sargeras loot (from the raid). Others don't. You want to place personal perception on why you can't do things and there is nothing there to stop you.

Having Blizzard hand hold us from making bad decisions isn't what the game needs. Players need to hold themselves accoutable for their action. If you feel like you need to do X, Y, and Z to be competitve then fine, but don't expect Blizzard to hold your hand and say no. That's why the whole mentality of "nerf LFR Mythic raiders don't like running it". No one forced you too, that was your choice and you could've stopped at any point. We saw Blizzard revert it after WoD because they agreed that wasn't the system to go with and it was so minor of an issue that the ones who complained about it made it seem worse than it was.

These rants are getting you nowhere.
Give it up. You're not even making any sense anymore.

Except they aren't rants, but feel free to see it as that. That just shows that for some reason you aren't able to counter it with something, that is if it was easily a rant and didn't make sense.

If you don't want to continue the discussion that's fine, but at least back it up on why and not just "herp derp I'm done with them so I'm gonna say they make no sense so I sound amazing and I win" type mentality (no that's not to say that's exactly what you are saying, just the jist of the idea).

[shaunika123]

Really? I guess every guild that cleared it has had full Titanforged gear, all netherlight crucible traits, maxed out artifact too huh? Oh wait they didn't. That's because it's not balanced around having full Titanforged gear. The difference is most of the playerbase needs that full titanforged gear, netherlight and more artifact levels. Why? Because it's extremely challenging content and they are slowly realizing that they aren't as good as they once assumed. In the past they had higher gear to help compensate (this time presented in Titanforged gear, Netherlight Crucible and more artifact traits this tier).

the very first kill on mythic avatar had a higher average ilvl than the loot he drops, and if we just go down to top 20-30 then it's way higher
and dont forget that his hp literally had to be hotfixed to be less in the first week because he was unkillable in gear he supposedly drops