Time to increase gap in raid loot?

[potatojenkins]

except numbers of active mythic raiding guilds between this expansion and WOD suggest otherwise.

and within this expansion mythic raiding guilds are rapidly disappearing from tier to tier

THESE number changes have NOTHING to do with 20 man mythic raid

Can you show me these numbers?

[Aaronioslo]

Can you show me these numbers?

WOWprogress

[Kaesebrezen]

except titanforging doesnt only come form raiding,

there is m+, which is spamable and produces tones of 940+ items and that killed mythic raiding.

You heard it here first: Method killed KJ in 940 mythic dungeon titanforged gear.

[Sorshen]

Yeah, let's not strengthen titanforge fishing. Just go back to MoP system of WF/TF... maybe like +5/+10 ilvls.

[Aaronioslo]

You heard it here first: Method killed KJ in 940 mythic dungeon titanforged gear.

you heard it here first : it haven't killed method yet

but how many guilds it HAD killed?

as long as method is still standing, its absolutely fine. LOGIC!

[Queen of Hamsters]

my spriest alt who does not do m+ or any raiding has the same ilvl as my mythic raiding main, would that change your mind?

Really?

I'd love to see that character's armory. You must've been extremely lucky to get that ilvl from whichever content it is you do with that character.

[Aaronioslo]

Really?

I'd love to see that character. You must've been extremely lucky to get that.

that's true, only happened to one of the alts and stats are not maximized, but it did happen and it's not that hard actually with the 910 vendor. happened to some other guildies too.

[potatojenkins]

WOWprogress

What should I be looking for? I don't even understand how this website works. Can you just tell me the information? Like, post some screenshots or something

[Queen of Hamsters]

that's true, only happened to one of the alts and stats are not maximized, but it did happen and it's not that hard actually with the 910 vendor. happened to some other guildies too.

Can you provide a link to the character? I think there's a lot of people curious about what your pieces look like and their source.

And I've gotten exactly 1 Titanforged item on par with or better than Mythic ToS gear from the Argunite vendor and with good enough stats that it was worth equipping. Other warforged/titanforged pieces have been sold due to being wrong stats. Most my alts that have gotten any form of War/titanforging on gear from that vendor, got just Warforged ilvls. They're nowhere near my main in terms of ilvl and optimization of gear.

Once Antorus opens, the pieces will be vastly inferior to what drops in that raid anyway.

[Aaronioslo]

What should I be looking for? I don't even understand how this website works. Can you just tell me the information? Like, post some screenshots or something

you just need to check how many guilds have full clear a raid from tier to tier, you'd see the numbers are diving down.

on EU

cleared tier19 : 938

cleared tier20 : 134

well this is not a really accurate way since there might be people going back finishing nighthold with current gear, but I think that would not make a 800+ difference.

and this is also from my personal experience and videos from streamers and youtube talking about this problem

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Can you provide a link to the character? I think there's a lot of people curious about what your pieces look like and their source.

And I've gotten exactly 1 Titanforged item on par with or better than Mythic ToS gear from the Argunite vendor and with good enough stats that it was worth equipping. Other warforged/titanforged pieces have been sold due to being wrong stats. Most my alts that have gotten any form of War/titanforging on gear from that vendor, got just Warforged ilvls. They're nowhere near my main in terms of ilvl and optimization of gear.

Once Antorus opens, the pieces will be vastly inferior to what drops in that raid anyway.

but as of now, many guilds(at least 4 that I know of) on EU silvermoon had stopped raiding as people are saying its not worth the trouble. and titanforging is the problem, is it not?

I can not. you can choose to not believe me. I don't really care. my main is ilvl 934, my alts is ilvl 933.9

[Queen of Hamsters]

you just need to check how many guilds have full clear a raid from tier to tier, you'd see the numbers are diving down.

on EU

cleared tier19 : 938

cleared tier20 : 134

well this is not a really accurate way since there might be people going back finishing nighthold with current gear, but I think that would not make a 800+ difference.

and this is also from my personal experience and videos from streamers and youtube talking about this problem

ToS is still a current raid though, with one of the most challenging final fights this game has ever produced.

How many guilds are still progressing on ToS? That's a better gauge I'd say.

Thinking raiding is going down because of Titanforging is a bit laughable, especially when using numbers of guilds clearing a current raid vs having cleared an old one...

[Aaronioslo]

ToS is still a current raid though, with one of the most challenging final fights this game has ever produced.

How many guilds are still progressing on ToS? That's a better gauge I'd say.

Thinking raiding is going down because of Titanforging is a bit laughable, especially when using numbers of guilds clearing a current raid vs having cleared an old one...

so in the next 3 weeks or so you expect 800 more guilds will clear TOS?

and I'm done trying to convince you, have it your way.

[Sharein]

Of course the ideal situation is to remove Titanforging, but if Titanforging is here to stay, then I think it might be time to revisit the 15 ilvl gap between each tier. 15 item levels is far too small of a gap in a world where non-Mythic gear can proc upwards of 50 item levels. Most of the loot is disenchanted when a mythic boss is killed for the first time which is not fun for anyone. Here are the gaps I propose:

LFR --> N = +15 ilvls
N --> H = +20 ilvls
H --> M = +25 ilvls

For example, ToS would drop 900N/920H/945M gear with the 955 TF cap.

Any thoughts about this?

The gap should be decreased actually, gear/power creep destroys games.

[Queen of Hamsters]

you just need to check how many guilds have full clear a raid from tier to tier, you'd see the numbers are diving down.

on EU

cleared tier19 : 938

cleared tier20 : 134

well this is not a really accurate way since there might be people going back finishing nighthold with current gear, but I think that would not make a 800+ difference.

and this is also from my personal experience and videos from streamers and youtube talking about this problem

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but as of now, many guilds(at least 4 that I know of) on EU silvermoon had stopped raiding as people are saying its not worth the trouble. and titanforging is the problem, is it not?

I can not. you can choose to not believe me. I don't really care. my main is ilvl 934, my alts is ilvl 933.9

Why can you not...? It's your character...

And I can't confirm the legitimacy of your anecdotal evidence. If you know 4 guilds that stopped raiding because Titanforging exists, that's sad I suppose? Did they just raid for epix rather than challenge or something?

Guilds have stopped playing for all manners of reasons every tier for as long as I can remember. The raiding scene size has remained pretty stable all the same.

[Deleted]

Oh, so you mean exactly what people were doing in all the past expansions. Except instead of additional alt runs they can siphon into mythic+. So what people are doing now has always been there.

The only the high end raiders don't like is that they feel forced to do the split/alt runs to stay competitive. This is a choice they make however and no one is forcing them. There really is no ideal solution to cut off alt runs. The issue with alt runs and getting gear and titanforging are two different things.

People are so bent up with lumping Titanforging into everything and trying to make an issue out of nothing because it ruins their perception of anything or even their "prestige" level.



So basically Mythic mode returning to what's its original idea was is a bad thing. Mythic mode is a challenge that you are suppose to overcome. By doing so you can brag about how good you are that you cleared it. Mythic mode isn't about the gear exactly, but the "prestige" you get from clearing something. Mythic mode also gets it's own colors / visual upgrades on gear. Along with mounts (at some times) and other things. Gear was added so people have an "incentive" other than prestige to do it because why people say they want "challenging" content so they can brag and be cool at the end of the day they still want some gear. So they added gear and requires way less chance to titanforge to cap which in turn lets any additional rolls go towards socketing / tetriary.

This can be see with Challenge Modes in MoP / Draenor. People wanted a challenge but way less did it because there was no gear involved. Blizzard's solution was Mythic+ and then all of a sudden it's booming like no other. People get a timed challenge ("that scales") and they get a piece of loot to show for it.



Except Kil'jaeden did have more rewards. The difference is people didn't like the rewards. You have chances for 4-5 pieces of loot (can't remember number offhand), you got a Mythic: Kil'jaeden achievement and the title "X the Darkener", some got Realm First! Kiljaeden achievement.

People would rather see shiny gear because then they can flex their epeen or whatever when people hover over them and go "OMG They like totally killed Mythic Kil'jaeden they are like so amazing" instead of being happy with themselves that they killed the hardest boss in the game at the time. People act like they need the approval of everyone around them so they can stand out. This is why Mythic has it's own colors and sometimes flashy effects.

You can't also blame bad RNG on drops for why "loot feels terrible on first drop". This has always existed. If you could cherry pick what drops then you'd feel more amazed because you guys got what you want. Every boss has essentially "crap loot". You could have a 935 item on and have a titanforged 955 piece drop and it still be so crap you don't want to use it because of secondaries, procs, etc.



Really? I guess every guild that cleared it has had full Titanforged gear, all netherlight crucible traits, maxed out artifact too huh? Oh wait they didn't. That's because it's not balanced around having full Titanforged gear. The difference is most of the playerbase needs that full titanforged gear, netherlight and more artifact levels. Why? Because it's extremely challenging content and they are slowly realizing that they aren't as good as they once assumed. In the past they had higher gear to help compensate (this time presented in Titanforged gear, Netherlight Crucible and more artifact traits this tier).



Except I would almost bet not the entire mythic raiding community feels this way. The % is probably pretty small but the "vocal few" apparently speak for all.

Yes, you have the potential and again the odds are so small it's not even an issue, but everyone see's Joe, Dan, Bob or anyone else with 1 piece and they start flipping their lid complaining about how it's not fair. You don't have to invest time in it, the reason you feel like you need to invest your time into it is because you think you need to. Unless you are in one of the Top 50 raiding guilds, doing old content isn't going to make or break you doing things. Not getting an item to titanforge can be disappointing, but that's because you are expecting it too. It's implemented so you don't expect it. You expect it to be at base iLvL and then when it titanforges you can be happy. Expecting something to always happens leads to disappointment.

No, the solution is not to cap it as we go back to what happened in previous expansion and cause subs to start to decline and people get less interested in content.

1. Subs didn't decline because there wasn't titanforging.
2. Subs declined because the majority of players had nothing to do if they chose not to raid.
3. Subs declined because of the very long end tier, as usual, people will unsub and skip a year long end tier farm.

The solution is to cap it and make it so that Mythic will always give you the best loot, and heroic should be directly capped at the minimum item level of mythic loot. They know it, and it's most likely some of the things they'll do differently in the next expansion, because the system should be fun, but for mythic raiders it's a giant frustration to see heroic and normal raiders reach similar item levels with 0 effort spent into their characters.

If you want the best loot, you should raid mythic, if you want to be lazy or put in no effort, you don't deserve to get the same loot mythic raiders get and you should simply settle for less and stick to heroic, normal or LFR. There's basically no games in the world that have a system where the rewards of the highest difficulty were outshone by the lower difficulties, and those that did, well they aren't around anymore.

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The gap should be decreased actually, gear/power creep destroys games.

It doesn't really destroy anything other than your perception.

[Queen of Hamsters]

so in the next 3 weeks or so you expect 800 more guilds will clear TOS?

and I'm done trying to convince you, have it your way.

Not at all, I expect however that once we're this far into Antorus, the number of guilds having cleared ToS will be at the same level as Nighthold right now, and NH will have tons more clears.

If you're so passionate, why not give actual examples such as linking your main vs your alt so that people can see for themselves that your alt has close to the same ilvl as your main from doing zero progress?

[Aaronioslo]

Why can you not...? It's your character...

And I can't confirm the legitimacy of your anecdotal evidence. If you know 4 guilds that stopped raiding because Titanforging exists, that's sad I suppose? Did they just raid for epix rather than challenge or something?

Guilds have stopped playing for all manners of reasons every tier for as long as I can remember. The raiding scene size has remained pretty stable all the same.

like someone replied earlier, why give medals and prize to athletes? they are rewarded by the challenge already, how dare they expect any material reward

[moveth]

I hate titanforging because half of us outgeared ToS before we even started real mythic progression. It is a lot less fun to kill a boss like Mistress after 100+ wipes, but because your raid got lucky with tier in Heroic, you are already giving out mythic tokens for rerolls on your first kill. Or opening the loot on a newly killed boss, seeing that none of the gear Warforge/Titanforged , and immediately knowing that nothing could even be considered an upgrade because an unsullied piece TF'd to 955 the night before.

While it makes gearing easier and more streamlined since ANY content can give you an upgrade, it really takes the excitement of killing a new boss down a lot for me knowing that I might never even see an upgrade from that boss.

[Queen of Hamsters]

like someone replied earlier, why give medals and prize to athletes? they are rewarded by the challenge already, how dare they expect any material reward

I don't think athletes do it for the material rewards, really...

And Mythic raiders get rewarded same as always, they get the best possible base ilvl at a reliable rate, they get to down bosses, get special appearances on gear, titles and Mythic only mounts.

A great way for you to back up your stance, would be if you actually linked the armories of those characters to let people see for themselves. If I were making a case that one could gear to Mythic levels from a vendor giving 910 base ilvl alone, I'd be throwing around the evidence...

[Fafnar]

so in the next 3 weeks or so you expect 800 more guilds will clear TOS?

and I'm done trying to convince you, have it your way.

You appear to be having a different argument. I'd say the reason mythic ToS hasn't been cleared by that many guilds is because ToS is harder than previous tier which was harder than the previous tier to that. (First tier was laughably easy)
I would not say that fewer guilds are clearing ToS because some random got Titanforged LFR gear.