So, can we call Legion a bust for anyone who played Ret, and what's in it for 8.0?

[ComputerNerd]

some people find fun in molesting children
some people find fun in smearing themselves with shit
and some people find this castrated, sodomized, brutalized and mistreated spec to be fun.
So yes, this "Retribution" can be fun for some people, and I don't blame them for it. After all these are the times for tolerance and acceptance, right?

One-sided fun, but you still said it yourself - that THEY find it fun.
Provide more reason than it being wrong because you don't like it.

[Meebo]

All I want in 8.0 is a charge ability.
NB. Divine Stead is not a charge ability

[Leefa]

Ret is simple and fun, if you don't like it then that's great for you man.

Remember that your opinions aren't fact.

This exact post from you is your opinion though and not a fact.

Ret in WotLK was the most fun I ever had with the spec I think, I wish we could return to those days instead of this retarded collosus smash/holy power bs that interact terribly with eachother (If you have combo points, you should be able to fire them whenever you want and if you have colossus smash you shouldn't have combo points holding you back).

I'd rather have the WotLK style where we had a priority list with procs like exorcism/divine storm in our rotation. Not to mention that we actually had fun things like seals, auras and proper utility back then (and our mobility/damage on the move didnt suck ass with ranged attacks and passive movement speed along with a DoT from our abilities). Also, Hammer of Wrath, need I say more?

[Reith]

This exact post from you is your opinion though and not a fact.

Ret in WotLK was the most fun I ever had with the spec I think, I wish we could return to those days instead of this retarded collosus smash/holy power bs that interact terribly with eachother (If you have combo points, you should be able to fire them whenever you want and if you have colossus smash you shouldn't have combo points holding you back).

I'd rather have the WotLK style where we had a priority list with procs like exorcism/divine storm in our rotation. Not to mention that we actually had fun things like seals, auras and proper utility back then (and our mobility/damage on the move didnt suck ass with ranged attacks and passive movement speed along with a DoT from our abilities). Also, Hammer of Wrath, need I say more?

I started at the beginning of WotLK, but I'm not going to pretend Cata or MoP weren't just straight-up better for Ret tbh. There's plenty of things I miss that could apply to WotLK ret though, like the fact we used to have 3 ranged attacks, but now we only have one, and that one ranged attack doesn't generate holy power anymore (seriously wtf?), and you have to face your fricken target to use it now, and Consecration is a damn talent (whoever thought this was a good idea needs their head checked).

[Morally Grey Storm]

One-sided fun, but you still said it yourself - that THEY find it fun.
Provide more reason than it being wrong because you don't like it.

Some people also find joining ISIS fun.
Some people fan justify anything and everything with rhetorics on how anything and everything is down to personal choice or feeling.
But there also must be a common sense somewhere in there.
A line in the sand.

To find fun in current version of retribution is to be a deviant, down there along with coprophilliacs.
But hey, once more I say this- I accept and tolerate deviants.Them times, much progressive.

[Sigxy]

All I want in 8.0 is a charge ability.
NB. Divine Stead is not a charge ability

I want the leap attack. Doesn't have to be 'anywhere we want', but just towards the enemy itself. They told us we'd have one early on, then removed it because it wasn't class fantasy enough - yet one of our followers, Arator, who serves as DpS if you have him tag along with you, leap attacks between every single darn enemy and even leaves a consecration effect under him. And Turalyon, father of Arator, also leaps around.

[Wrecktangle]

While they may not be a 1 to 1 there's really no difference between combo points and any other stored resource that you then spend to do your heavy abilities. I'd say HP is distinctly NOT combo points simply because it's not tied to your target.

Mind you I don't play rogue, but I thought they changed that last expac didn't they? I agree that a lot of resources are functionally similar, but assuming my Rogue knowledge is correct, CB is clearly the closest comparison. If I'm wrong about that, it's up to debate for sure.

Divine Purpose is the big one, but you can also pick Blade of Wrath - though I don't care for it since when it procs it speeds things up too much and you cap resources faster than you can spend them and are always losing procs if you have DP.

I understand what you're saying here, but you're wrong. DP would be great, if it was even remotely competitive with Crusade. Since it's not, it's not an option. Blade of Wrath and Divine Hammer are your only talent choices in that tier. And that choice is 100% dependent on whether or not there are 2(+) targets, or 1. It is not a decision based on fluidity or fun, or anything else. It's AOE or ST.

Also the choice between Fires of Justice and Zeal is an interesting one since one gives strong cleave and the other speeds your rotation up.

Agreed here.

Although the biggest benefit to our rotation is our current tier set. I'm guessing they will be baking in the 3 HP generator with 8.0 if not 7.3.5. (Really hoping for 7.3.5.)

Not in scope of the discussion.

I'd suggest you learn to time your rotation around having a specific 3 second window of dead time actually. That will allow you time to rebuild to 5 combo points as judgment is coming off CD and opens up a large chunk of your haste budget to invest in crit and mastery.

And I know a lot of folks hate mastery but I do think the sims are getting it wrong by my "feely math."

Ret feels like it hits harder than any of my other plate classes and part of that is high mastery crits of 1.5 million plus. If I was in better gear than LFR those would be 3 million plus crits. Once T21 comes around my judgment will be hitting for almost a million damage in and of itself.

So you're in LFR gear, using feely math, rather than actual hard evidence to make generalizations?

[Sigxy]

Mind you I don't play rogue, but I thought they changed that last expac didn't they? I agree that a lot of resources are functionally similar, but assuming my Rogue knowledge is correct, CB is clearly the closest comparison. If I'm wrong about that, it's up to debate for sure.

Correct, Combo Points for rogues are no longer bound to targets, but to themselves, now. Which makes me dislike Holy Power even more since it's just a combo point system and I don't want that for a paladin. ;_:

[Reith]

Correct, Combo Points for rogues are no longer bound to targets, but to themselves, now. Which makes me dislike Holy Power even more since it's just a combo point system and I don't want that for a paladin. ;_:

Actually, combo points are now just a holy power system. Holy power was always better, we just don't have a secondary resource for dps like rogues do with their Energy.

[Sigxy]

Actually, combo points are now just a holy power system. Holy power was always better, we just don't have a secondary resource for dps like rogues do with their Energy.

It wasn't better when we only had 3 Holy Power points, that I can asure you. And even then, don't like it on a paladin.

[Nurvus]

I'd suggest you learn to time your rotation around having a specific 3 second window of dead time actually. That will allow you time to rebuild to 5 combo points as judgment is coming off CD and opens up a large chunk of your haste budget to invest in crit and mastery.

And I know a lot of folks hate mastery but I do think the sims are getting it wrong by my "feely math."

Ret feels like it hits harder than any of my other plate classes and part of that is high mastery crits of 1.5 million plus. If I was in better gear than LFR those would be 3 million plus crits. Once T21 comes around my judgment will be hitting for almost a million damage in and of itself.

When the only downtime we have is for mandatory abilities that don't interact with it, it still counts as nulifying downtime. It's still a passive buff.
I'd rather the window was bigger, with a bigger buff.
I'd like abilities like Execution Sentence to make sense - when it main advantage is using it outside Mastery and hit during Mastery, yet you always have Mastery around when you need it, that advantage is gone.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Speaking of execution sentence, can anyone formulate a coherent reason why it's healing component was removed?

[Konteil]

Ret is so broken its silly. i love the class i love the spec. i have played it for years. we got the nerfbat at least as bad as shamans did in olden times. praying for a fix one day soon. all ret is is a utility class these days with meh dps compared to other classes. but hey at least we get to be average at everything now!!

[Maudib]

Lol, sorry about your life.

That said, I just switched my main to my Paladin last week and am having a blast honing my Ret skills in Tomb. Hoping to lock down Prot and Holy too, going forward into 8.0. Loving the class fantasy.

No need to be sorry. I'm not wasting any money or time playing a weak facsimile of a once great game. If anything, I feel sorry for those that truly missed out on what this game used to be.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I find ret to be fun in Legion. Does that mean I like ISIS now guy?

No, that makes you equal to coprophilliac.


To find fun in current version of retribution is to be a deviant, down there along with coprophilliacs.
But hey, once more I say this- I accept and tolerate deviants.Them times, much progressive.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You sound unhealthily invested in this video game. Maybe you should talk to somebody.

No, I am not.
Thank you for your care, nevertheless.

[Omaski]

Wrath is Holy Power.

The biggest difference is Wrath has more spenders and we don't want that. Doing so just makes the spec more complicated than it should be. Just look at Windwalker Monks where their AoE was made into a weird chi spender for some reason, I really don't want to juggle choosing between TV and Consecrate in addition to DS and whatever else they may give to us.

Also DH have a 2nd resource - if you talent nemesis - since you need to manage the debuff. SV have Mongoose stacks.

Paladins are in a pretty good place resource-wise, their rotation is fluid and you can talent to make it more interesting too.

What we could really use is just an increase in spell effects for our heavy hitters. TV and DS could both use a bit more shine - as could Wake of Ashes if they bring it forward. Right now our most impressive looking ability is Blade of Justice and hardly anyone sees it because Divine Hammer is so much better overall.

Wrath is not holy power, holy power is a combo point system where as wrath would be equivalent to the way demonology warlock use to function while they have meta or spriests now. My idea is to have wrath as a build up mechanic...and when it fills up, wings (Avenging wrath) becomes available and many of our abilities change appearance and, of course, hit harder.

[Eurytos]

Retribution has been slowly dismantled since Vanilla.

This is just plainly wrong. Ret sucked in Vanilla. Some have a nostalgia for TBC, but it was also pretty shit. Wrath is pretty much the consensus peak for Ret, with a slight dip going to Cata depending on how you feel about the addition of Holy Power. And kinda plateaued from Cata through WoD. Legion is in this shit place again. Not nearly as shitty as vanilla, but for totally different reasons. Its almost unfair to truly compare, Vanilla was practically a totally different game from todays WoW.

But, if we want to use this word "dismantle" Legion has done more dismantling than anything, with the ability pruning with a machete, not a scalpel. From Vanilla to Wrath it was only improvements, in almost every way.

The other statements you made in that post, I can't really quibble with.

[Reith]

This is just plainly wrong. Ret sucked in Vanilla. Some have a nostalgia for TBC, but it was also pretty shit. Wrath is pretty much the consensus peak for Ret, with a slight dip going to Cata depending on how you feel about the addition of Holy Power. And kinda plateaued from Cata through WoD. Legion is in this shit place again. Not nearly as shitty as vanilla, but for totally different reasons. Its almost unfair to truly compare, Vanilla was practically a totally different game from todays WoW.

People preferring Wrath is just the nostalgia talking. That and the huge buffs and the tier set from ICC. MoP (and to a lesser extent, Cata) were objectively just better for Ret overall. More utility, more ability to offheal effectively without completely gimping your DPS, higher skill ceiling in general but especially for council fights, more mobility options.. yeah.

[Nurvus]

This is just plainly wrong. Ret sucked in Vanilla. Some have a nostalgia for TBC, but it was also pretty shit. Wrath is pretty much the consensus peak for Ret, with a slight dip going to Cata depending on how you feel about the addition of Holy Power. And kinda plateaued from Cata through WoD. Legion is in this shit place again. Not nearly as shitty as vanilla, but for totally different reasons. Its almost unfair to truly compare, Vanilla was practically a totally different game from todays WoW.

But, if we want to use this word "dismantle" Legion has done more dismantling than anything, with the ability pruning with a machete, not a scalpel. From Vanilla to Wrath it was only improvements, in almost every way.

The other statements you made in that post, I can't really quibble with.

I'm not complaining about viability.
I'm talking about many of the core concepts, abilities, etc.
Consecration, Seals, Auras, Blessings (Wisdom, Might, Kings, etc) - watered down or removed.

Granted, we got some cool new stuff as time went by, but some design decisions are so bad...
The current Holy Wrath... no words.
Long Arm of the Law was a cool concept worth improving, but let's scrap it entirely.
So between...
a) D3's Falling Sword (Turalyon's Might)
or...
b) D3's Steed Charge (Divine Steed)
,,,screw Draenei, let's go with Divine Steed, because instantly summoning a mount for 3 seconds is hype.