Mythic plus killed the raiding scene.

[Bryntrollian]

Mythic killed the raiding scene, but we're not talking about Mythic +.

[Ragnork58]

Less and fewer people raid today, with mythic + gear being easier to obtain. It's just as good as mythic raiding gear. With how the mythic + esport is going we can expect from now on Mythic + will always be a thing and it wont change other than more dungeons and affixes. I love dungeons as much as the next guy, but getting better gear from mythic raidng is a joke. The dungeons are not hard enough to where they should get better gear, until you do a 17 key the content is a joke, assuming you do it on your main.

I cant link anything because Im new, it says "You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times." However you guys can look up what I just said through WQ and WoW progress.

I would think that Mythic+ helped the players by giving them something to do when they are either waiting for the raid to reset or to help get the gear they need to do the raids. Raiding is still enjoyed by players who want the challenge of completing the content.

[dr2022]

People that raid through LFG and ask for Curve killed raiding.

[Magnagarde]

Sets and the best trinkets come out of raids. Mythic+ didn't kill mythic raiding. It simply diversified the PvE scene, which is something WoW needed. Having the same endgame content was always a problem.

Players had the option to raid mythic for endgame content or do nothing. Players who couldn't afford raiding for hours several times throughout the week would be left hanging and would eventually leave. Now these players have fun doing a dungeon from time to time, while still being presented a fun challenge.

[Millennía]

If raids are "dying", it's not because of M+. An ageing player base has a higher impact than M+ because people get older and with that come new responsibilities that make it more difficult to justify scheduling 6-12+ hours a week playing WoW.

[KaPe]

What's "killing" raiding is a combination of extreme difficulty and horrible rewards. The former was always the case, but it went overboard in ToS, where the last part of the instance is filled with insanely punishing mechanics that are also following the same pattern (soaking). However, even that wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't combined with loot system being more randomized than ever before. It's entirely possible to have vastly superior items than the hardest bosses are dropping, all because of lucky coin toss. Even people who raid for challenge like to get some shiny loot every once in a while. Right now, they really don't, outside of random procs.

Bonus points for Artifact Power and Legendary grinding being present for the majority of the expansion. It slowed down at some points, but it was still exhausting. Not only it was hard to have "spare time" for alts, but even offspecs were diffuclt to manage with additional layers of farming.

Compared to that, M+ system is highly rewarding, quick and relatively painless in a good group. It's far from perfect, but nothing is, and for an entirely new content type, it's working very well. Raiding... not so much.

[Tradu]

Sets and the best trinkets come out of raids. Mythic+ didn't kill mythic raiding. It simply diversified the PvE scene, which is something WoW needed. Having the same endgame content was always a problem.

Players had the option to raid mythic for endgame content or do nothing. Players who couldn't afford raiding for hours several times throughout the week would be left hanging and would eventually leave. Now these players have fun doing a dungeon from time to time, while still being presented a fun challenge.

Raid trinkets being good is a fairly recent thing in ToS(and to some extent NH), before then 5man trinkets were much better(and still are in some cases).

[Osmeric]

For me, raiding killed M+.

[dlhak]

Nope it didn't ...

[Tradu]

If raids are "dying", it's not because of M+. An ageing player base has a higher impact than M+ because people get older and with that come new responsibilities that make it more difficult to justify scheduling 6-12+ hours a week playing WoW.

From talking to some people in the situation you're talking about(less time due to IRL commitments), it's never the actual raid time that's the problem. It's the time you have to spend outside of raids(or fall behind, which is a shitty feeling) that they can't afford to put in, and that out-of-raid time requirement has gone up massively in Legion compared to pretty much any previous expansion. Now, other expansions did have huge time requirements at the beginning, but they all calmed down after a few weeks/months, whereas Legion has never taken the foot off the pedal(arguably during NH), there was always more non-raid stuff to do in order to perform better in raids.

[Magnagarde]

Raid trinkets being good is a fairly recent thing in ToS(and to some extent NH), before then 5man trinkets were much better(and still are in some cases).

The only time I really saw dungeon trinkets being of significance was before EN and for a while before NH(ie spiked tongue, chrono shard, arcanocrystal from J'im).

I mean an arcanocrystal is still the top game if you proc a relinquished one, but that is obtained through doing world content - neither dungeons nor raids.

[Schattenlied]

Raiding's been kept alive on life support by LFR for years.
It's about time it died for good.

this game would lose a whole lot of subs real fast if raids were removed... It wouldn't kill the game, but a large revenue chunk would disappear, and that wouldn't be good.

Raids were perfectly fine being developed without LFR, they would be again if it weren't there... Especially with flex normals.

[Harbour]

Mythic+ is a good alternative to Raiding and raiding is the good alternative to m+ and thats it.

[Marrilaife]

While i hate mythic + i dont think it killed raiders.
I think its a mix of the raid not being the best, better loot via TF/WF available in easier content and the loss of the competitive aspect that """killed""" the raiding scene.

Tbh TOS is really missing things like old school patchwerk / butcher / ultraxion type of boss, there isn't a well designed aoe boss either, I feel like raid design moved too far away from dps / hps checks and too much into platformer / geometrical puzzle. Remember Heigan dance? It only required you to move from left to right in 4 quarters, nothing like mythic Avatar / KJ puzzle who stands where so everything is covered.

People like to get gear and top the meters, not only sources of gear are much more plentiful outside of raids, but dungeons also allow people to get this fix "I'mma owning the meters", in many places people do mass aoe pulls and several bosses allow you to stand and pew pew (not all, but several). So yes, I would expect dungeons became more enjoyable in comparison to raids. I know very few people who like to do "bitch jobs" in raids, majority hates them and only does them because it's necessary, but TOS had overload of these. Things like Mistress literally punishing you for too much aoe / "good" usage of fish is typical anti fun design. People want to do "big dick dps". Ofc place can't be a boring field of target dummies, but neither are m+ dungeons, mechanics do exist there (especially on higher keys you will notice them).

[Tradu]

The only time I really saw dungeon trinkets being of significance was before EN and for a while before NH(ie spiked tongue, chrono shard, arcanocrystal from J'im).

I mean an arcanocrystal is still the top game if you proc a relinquished one, but that is obtained through doing world content - neither dungeons nor raids.

Memento and Chaos Talisman are some of the best trinkets in the game to this day. Even in NH(and in ToS), tanks were running 5man trinkets(because raid DPS trinkets were gutted for them), and most melees(and hunters) only used maybe 1 NH trinket(usually CoF), because DoS was only strong for a few specs, Foci was a less consistent Memento(without the free procs on death) and Frond got nerfed to the point where very few specs used it(at least outside of Krosus, where lots of specs used it because there was no miss penalty).
Then there's obviously Arcanocrystal as you pointed out, yet another non-raid trinket, and Arcano is very clearly stupidly OP to the point where Blizzard admitted it and... did nothing about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Mythic+ is a good alternative to Raiding and raiding is the good alternative to m+ and thats it.

Except they're not really alternatives, they complement each other.

[Ehrenpanzer]

What's wrong with Mythic +? Probably the best end game feature they have added to WoW since...raiding. It's like raiding, but with a much tighter group, less time commitment (per run) and infinitely scaling challenge.

MY only complaint is that every run is time based.... Surely with the almost infinity billion dollars they make, someone could be paid to come up with some different completion requirements.

[leviathonlx]

Raiding was better when mythic didn't exist and it was just heroic and normal 10 and 25 man so that you could still have small high end guilds.

[krille20]

Threads here keep getting dumber and dumber...sigh.

[VyersReaver]

Haha good joke I laughed. 8/10

7.8 actually. Too much water for my taste.

[Kokolums]

if the game was social again, subs would surge higher than 10 million and the raw number of raiders would swell which would thus support the raid community.