New home for Night Elves and Undead?

[Hitei]

Hyjal is a nonoption for expansion launch at the very least.

The Devs have said that, aside from the islands on the wrong sides of the sea, the Horde will control ALL of Kalimdor, while the Alliance will control ALL of the Eastern Kingdoms.

The Nelves slipping off to Hyjal makes no sense in light of that fact.

I mean, first, you are objectively wrong. The whole point of the warfront in Arathi is that the Alliance is unable to hold the ruins of Lordaeron and the Horde continues to occupy Quel'thalas. Second, it clearly isn't the case that the Horde will control ALL of Kalimdor, since a massive portion of the Sentinel army holds Feathermoon Stronghold in Feralas, and again, I really can't imagine the Horde is going to attack Hyjal.

Blizzard confirmed that the Horde controls all of Kalimdor sans Azuremyst, and the Alliance controls all of EK sans Quel'thalas.

I think you are confusing a general statement for a comprehensive one. Alliance obviously doesn't control most of STV, which is largely held by hostile trolls and neutral goblins, the Badlands, which are held by neutral goblins, or Searing Gorge/Burning Steppes, which are continual battlefronts against the hostile forces there.

Similarly, I can't imagine the Horde are going to control Desolace, which is mostly held by the neutral CC, Hyjal and Moonglade which are the same, Felwood which is largely occupied by demons and the circle, etc., etc.

[Faroth]

Which is part of Kalimdor and is fully horde controlled. The nightborne will take control of Hyjal and the Well of Eternity, and finally we shall see some serious use of it.

So the Horde have Hyjal with the World Tree and Well of Eternity plus the Sunwell plus Suramar and the night elves get................. shafted.

Sounds about right. /sigh

[Deleted]

I mean, first, you are objectively wrong. The whole point of the warfront in Arathi is that the Alliance is unable to hold the ruins of Lordaeron and the Horde continues to occupy Quel'thalas. Second, it clearly isn't the case that the Horde will control ALL of Kalimdor, since a massive portion of the Sentinel army holds Feathermoon Stronghold in Feralas, and again, I really can't imagine the Horde is going to attack Hyjal.

This.

Saying the Horde controlls all of Kalimdor is from a strategic point of view, but it has been clearly stated that Hord and Alliance are fighting to regain controll

The Horde is doing so in Arathi by attacking from Quel Thalas and the Alliance is yet unknown from where.
From a Lore point of View Hyjal makes sense, as it is a huge mountain ridge that is sovered in forests, perfect for the agile sentinel army to gather there. (They have done it in the past in Wc3 to attack on Archimond there.) All of the nightelven campaign in WC3 was about bying time for the sentinel army to reach Mt. Hyjal in order to slay out Horde and Alliance before the Legion actually returns.

So since Blizzard is all about "reviving the RTS game" it makes total sense to assume Hyjal will be the Alliance foothold.


So for the Azuremyth / Silvermoon statement.
This has been claimed becasuse of technical limitations. However the fight where the hord etries to regain controll doesn't start in silvermoon, it is in arathi.
So it is safe to asume that the fight for the alliance is not on Azuremyst but on Hyjal or Ashenvale.

[Kagthul]

Which is part of Kalimdor...which is now Horde controlled...

No it isnt.

That was just BS hype.

Hell, the Horde doesn't even permanently lose Lordaeron/UC. Its just wrecked/uninhabitable/useless (well, it was always basically useless. Lordaeron as a nation was only ever safe/viable because its neighbors protected it geographically. The whole thing was an indefensible mess from the get-go).

Alliance falls back to Arathi to try to rebuild Stromgarde, because Lordaeron isn't defensible and is basically useless.

Lets list the zones of Kalimdor that Horde DOESNT control:

Felwood, Darkshore, Moonglade, Hyjal, Winterspring, Thousand Needles, Feralas, Tanaris, Un'Goro, and Silithus. (Oh, and Bloodmyst/Azuremyst).

You know...

damn near the entire continent.

Lets list the zones we know the Alliance still wont control in EK:

EPL, WPL, Hillsbrad, Arathi, Wetlands, Blasted Lands, SoS, Strangelthorn, Ghostlands/Quel'Thalas, the Cata zones....

Yeah.

The whole "one continent under the control of each faction" thing they presented at Blizzcon was drivel. And it isn't going to, nor was it intended to, last.

Both factions (undead & NEs) have plenty of other settlements - they dont need a "new home" - they lost ONE CITY each. Its not like their populations were entirely concentrated in each place, or even the majority of them were in those places.

On top of that, id bet real money that by expansions end well see a brand-new UC that is more in line with the new Forsaken architecture and a new "home" for the NEs - probably a new World Tree or similar.

[Steampunkette]

This.

Saying the Horde controlls all of Kalimdor is from a strategic point of view, but it has been clearly stated that Hord and Alliance are fighting to regain controll

The Horde is doing so in Arathi by attacking from Quel Thalas and the Alliance is yet unknown from where.
From a Lore point of View Hyjal makes sense, as it is a huge mountain ridge that is sovered in forests, perfect for the agile sentinel army to gather there. (They have done it in the past in Wc3 to attack on Archimond there.) All of the nightelven campaign in WC3 was about bying time for the sentinel army to reach Mt. Hyjal in order to slay out Horde and Alliance before the Legion actually returns.

So since Blizzard is all about "reviving the RTS game" it makes total sense to assume Hyjal will be the Alliance foothold.


So for the Azuremyth / Silvermoon statement.
This has been claimed becasuse of technical limitations. However the fight where the hord etries to regain controll doesn't start in silvermoon, it is in arathi.
So it is safe to asume that the fight for the alliance is not on Azuremyst but on Hyjal or Ashenvale.

In Arathi, the humans who decimated Lordaeron realize that the walls wouldn't be defensible from a Horde Attack out of Silvermoon, so they're helping Trollbane to finish reclaiming and rebuilding Stromgarde so they can have a defensible position north of Lordaeron, while the bulk of their forces will be moving up from Gilneas to Arathi.

Horde to the North. Alliance to the South.

In Kalimdor, wherever the Warfront is, the Alliance are coming from the Exodar in the North with the Horde defending from the South in a place that is defensible.

If the Nelves are on Hyjal and the Draenei are on the Exodar, it doesn't follow the same flow. Hyjal also isn't defensible because it's a freaking mountain without a fortified position. No. The Nelves won't be on Hyjal's slopes 'cause the Devs are mirroring things.

Instead, they need to be either in the North (with the Draenei while the Forsaken retreat to Silvermoon, too) or they need to go overseas (With the Forsaken doing the same thing). Since they're not moving the BC landmasses into the main map, it makes more sense for the groups to be removed from their sides, rather than redo the maps to add in a bunch of NPCs without adding the maps to the main mass.

Nelves will go to Gilneas, where the Alliance is mustering it's forces for Arathi warfare. Forsaken will probably go to somewhere in the Barrens, Durotar, or the Eastern end of Ashenvale, with Ashenvale being the Warfront.

[Wyattbw09]

Hyjal is a nonoption for expansion launch at the very least.

The Devs have said that, aside from the islands on the wrong sides of the sea, the Horde will control ALL of Kalimdor, while the Alliance will control ALL of the Eastern Kingdoms.

The Nelves slipping off to Hyjal makes no sense in light of that fact.

Can’t see how this is true if the flash point in Eastern Kingdoms is Stromgurd. Both sides need a presence if it is supposed to be more than a glorified BG.

[Deleted]

In Kalimdor, wherever the Warfront is, the Alliance are coming from the Exodar in the North with the Horde defending from the South in a place that is defensible.

If the Nelves are on Hyjal and the Draenei are on the Exodar, it doesn't follow the same flow. Hyjal also isn't defensible because it's a freaking mountain without a fortified position. No. The Nelves won't be on Hyjal's slopes 'cause the Devs are mirroring things.

There is not a single, not even one statement that the Alliance are coming from the Exodar. Pure speculation. Blizzard has said absolutely nothing about that but that due to zone limitations these zones (Silvermoon and Exodar) are not going to be changed.

Also we're talking about Nightelves .. saying Forestpeople are unable to defend a mountain that is basically made of forests is stupid. If one Race would be able to defend a forest it is the night elves. They have done it before in the war of the ancients and in wc3 against the legion and against horde and allaince combined.
You seem to forget that nightelven war structures are in fact trees! Ancients of War for example and they controll the forest. Cenarius even is able to use the forest as a weapon, which he has done in wc3 to destroy the goblin siege machines and was only be stopped after the orcs again drank demon blood.
Which didn't change anything as the nightelves still threw the warsong out of the forest afterwards.

Play wc3 for a chance before making those statements.

[Sethrak]

Sheesh, how many times must I repeat this.... you cannot fit a race that spanned 8 zones into a portion of one zone. There are many more night elves than there are Worgen refugees that were housed in Teldrassil. At least with Azuremyst its 2 zones. They can crash there.

There was an interview where a dev said that they would use sharding technology for all characters above level 110 to have the burned down NE capital (I'm assuming the same is true for the Undead capital as well). With that in mind I don't get where this "8 zones" stuff comes into play.

Oh another thing the dev said is that they did that because they wanted players to experience the world before it became a "Battle for Azeroth" and so that they could form these emotional connections. We could also see some Bronze Dragonflight shenanigans if people outcry enough to have their tree and underground fort back.

[Hitei]

If the Nelves are on Hyjal and the Draenei are on the Exodar, it doesn't follow the same flow. Hyjal also isn't defensible because it's a freaking mountain without a fortified position. No. The Nelves won't be on Hyjal's slopes 'cause the Devs are mirroring things.

Instead, they need to be either in the North (with the Draenei while the Forsaken retreat to Silvermoon, too) or they need to go overseas (With the Forsaken doing the same thing). Since they're not moving the BC landmasses into the main map, it makes more sense for the groups to be removed from their sides, rather than redo the maps to add in a bunch of NPCs without adding the maps to the main mass.

Nelves will go to Gilneas, where the Alliance is mustering it's forces for Arathi warfare. Forsaken will probably go to somewhere in the Barrens, Durotar, or the Eastern end of Ashenvale, with Ashenvale being the Warfront.

Yeah, man. Hyjal isn't defensible, it's only survived a siege by both the Legion and the forces of Ragnaros and the Twilight's Hammer.

It's a mountain where you have to ascend a long, steep valley to reach the top, protected by several different powerful factions and the forces of nature themselves.

[Lyvefire]

The Night Elves are completely and totally defined by their land. Druidism, all their natural allies even the forests themselves are completely in sync with them. There is literally no other race more defined by their empires location. They aren't going anywhere further than Hyjal or at most Feathermoon stronghold where they will most likely stay until, at the latest, the expansion end whereupon they will reclaim their lands
I'd honestly bet my account on it.

Hyjal also isn't defensible because it's a freaking mountain without a fortified position. No.

U fucking wot mate?

Hyjal is the single most defensible zone in the entire game? It has held off the full frontal assault of the legion led by archimonde himself and a full on elemental invasion by the firelord. Furthermore, said firelord invasion destroyed the only land based route to even begin ascending the damn place. How do you propose the horde invades hyjal without the bridge from winterspring a ground based army requires?

Try actually reading something about the topic before you attempt to make a definitive post on it. Holy hell...

[Cryptoriana]

Undead can settle in Ashenvale? Id hope the conflict there is changed if horde do control Kalimdor

[Deleted]

Also by the way:

Nightelves chose Mt Hyjal for their operational base during the War of the Ancients exclusively for its defensiveable capabilities. After losing Suramar and the surroundings the Nightelven forces of Jarod Shadowsong retreated to Hyjal and from their launched the counter attack that defeated the legion and Azsahra entirely.

So in terms of historical boundries and lore it would actually make full sense for them to do exactly that in BFA. Retreating to Mt. Hyjal, defending the Mountain against the Horde in a warfront and throughout the expansion waiting for the Sentinal army to arrive at Hyjal. Would make perfect sense.

[CreatureLives]

think you are confusing a general statement for a comprehensive one. Alliance obviously doesn't control most of STV, which is largely held by hostile trolls and neutral goblins, the Badlands, which are held by neutral goblins, or Searing Gorge/Burning Steppes, which are continual battlefronts against the hostile forces there.

Similarly, I can't imagine the Horde are going to control Desolace, which is mostly held by the neutral CC, Hyjal and Moonglade which are the same, Felwood which is largely occupied by demons and the circle, etc., etc.

Its not that Alliance owns 100% of EK and that Horde owns 100% of Kalimdor. Its that the Alliance has gotten rid of 98% of the Horde in EK and the Horde has gotten rid of 98% of the Alliance in Kalimdor. So in a war between 2 factions EK is Alliance controlled and Kalimdor is Horde controlled but if you ignore the Alliance vs Horde war then neither fully controls all of their land and the people in it. It's just that the neutral factions are kinda irrelevant to the war because they are staying out of it if that makes any sense. These lands are Alliance & Horde dominated and the enemy no longer has a strong presence in either land.

That said there probably will still be a small presence of both sides in each land with outposts/spies to keep an eye on the enemy (we have that in real life too) but they are not exactly welcomed and if Sylvanas/Anduin knew about it they probably would have them either killed or thrown in prison it's just hard to keep an eye on every inch of your land especially with no computers or technology like we have in real life.

I wonder if they will address places like Booty Bay/Ratchet and Blasted Lands though. See for Moonglade you could just say that it's neutral so its not really worth dealing with but a place like Booty Bay or Rachet are directly allowing the enemy side over so it would be weird if there was no Alliance/Horde troops there making sure that doesn't happen but at the same time it's still a video game and we need to be able to get to other lands. lol. And Blasted Lands is mostly controlled by the Alliance but the Horde need the Dark Portal. I think the best way around the travel thing would be to turn Azuremyst and Quel'thalas in to ports. Booty Bay takes you to Azuremyst instead of Ratchet and Ratchet takes you to Quel'Thalas instead of Booty Bay. I think it would make more sense that way. Plus it makes those zones feel important again. Those are the last real hubs the Alliance and Horde have on either side and the only way we can get in to Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdoms would be to fly directly to them from those hubs.

Undead can settle in Ashenvale? Id hope the conflict there is changed if horde do control Kalimdor

It makes the most sense for the Undead to go to Ashenvale/Teldrassil if they are the ones that destroy the place. Not only that but it's close to Orgrimmar the capital city of the Horde that Sylvanas is in charge of. I think she'd want her people close by. Especially if something ever were to happen where the Orcs and others decided to turn on her.

[Eurhetemec]

Yeah, man. Hyjal isn't defensible, it's only survived a siege by both the Legion and the forces of Ragnaros and the Twilight's Hammer.

It's a mountain where you have to ascend a long, steep valley to reach the top, protected by several different powerful factions and the forces of nature themselves.

The trouble with Hyjal as an Alliance-specific stronghold is that a lot of the factions on it, and the forces of nature, are Neutral in the H/A conflict, and would either not prevent the Horde from coming up it, or would, but would also be keen to kick the Alliance off it.

There's no "CC etc. all just became Alliance factions!" potential, as much as some people may wank to that.

[Steampunkette]

Ya'll are weird.

So here's the thing about Hyjal: It's a mountain. Not a fortress on a mountain, or any sort of walled fortifications anywhere. An intense assault on forces living in some wooden houses on the slopes of the mountain would destroy them. A Mangonel Catapult or a Trebuchet would have unbroken line of attack to the positions of various locations.

Yeah. The Elves have Tree Ancients of War. They're actually Nelf-souls only they're totally not because yaaaaay revisionism! But an Ancient of War standing 200 feet up a mountain face is a big goddamned target to a Siege Weapon parked a distance away (to avoid getting rockslided) pelting it with stones. Or, and this might be -kooky-: ATTACKING THE MOUNTAINSIDE ITSELF to cause rockslides.

Yeah. We held off the Firelord, by going into the Firelands and blocking him from getting out through a Doorway in reality. Had Ragnaros been outside the portal, making his way up the mountain in Lava and Fire any soldiers above him on the mountain would be dead of smoke inhalation and toxic fumes. If we wanna be realistic about it at all. And, again, wooden houses burn up -real- nice.

The combined forces of Azeroth managed to keep Archimonde from taking Nordrassil in Hyjal by destroying the tree, and Archimonde with it, at the top of the damned mountain. With all the military tactics of "Send lots of demons up the hill against them" the armies of the Legion burned down the tree.

And you're telling me that a siege engine equipped military actually moving with some kind of tactics beyond "Swarm!" would find it super difficult? Fuck that noise.

No. Hyjal is a terrible place for the Nelves to wind up, or place for the Horde and Alliance to fight. Ashenvale would be better. But the Nelves would still need to leave Kalimdor for it to work as a mirrored situation, otherwise the placement would benefit the Alliance significantly compared to the Horde.

Also, I totally had the names of Nordrassil and Vordrassil swapped in my head...

[Lyvefire]

And you're telling me that a Siege engine equipped military actually moving with some kind of tactics beyond "Swarm!" would find it super difficult? Fuck that noise.

firelord invasion destroyed the only land based route

Again, take a moment and actually read up on what you're arguing. It helps a lot.

[iamthedevil]

They aren't getting one. Their home is Org/SW now.

The NE will get a tree in SW to live, all of them.

Undead will get the entirety of Garrosh's underground fortress to keep them locked in the basement.

[Steampunkette]

Again, take a moment and actually read up on what you're arguing. It helps a lot.

Because Airships aren't a thing. And there's certainly no place to land a boat and drive the thing up the side of the mountain. Or a clearing to build it after making harbor and schlepping the materials up the side of the mountain. Or just open a Portal halfway up the mountain and drive 'em on through, since they've got Belf Mages so powerful they can blow up a city with a Manabomb.

You do know how Trebuchets were used in sieges, right? They were built on the spot in most situations, or occasionally carried, in pieces, to a location before they were put together and used.

Fuck. Horde Airships have Cannons. The whole "Needing a place to build siege engines" kind of falls into nothingness when you take that little factoid into account. Secure a place near the top of the mountain with bombardments and bomb dropping (Or just hit it with a manabomb) and send the mountainside down on any buildings placed on the sides of the damned thing...

Without fortifications capable of resisting assault, you're not defending a mountain. Especially not in a situation with Fantasy Technology and straight up Magic.

[AngerFork]

For Night Elves, my first thought would be either Duskwood or the Hinterlands, areas with Great Trees. Tirisfal is interesting, but there's too much death there for them to really build it out for a while to come.

For Undead, there really isn't a strong sort of place for them at this point. You could perhaps look at the ruins of Theramore or Ashenvale, using some of the ruins from Deathwing's Cataclysm.

What I honestly feel they should do though is rebuild some of the old broken kingdoms and start giving races homes in there, particularly some of the upcoming Allied Races. In this system, I would see the Alliance take back Stromgarde for the Lightforged Draenei, Stratholme for Void Elves (close to where they got kicked out, turn it into a void mecca), Lordaeron for the Night Elves, Gilneas for the Worgen, and finally take back the rest of Gnomeregan for the Gnomes. Horde on the other hand would build a new Undercity from the Ruins of Theramore, build out a true capital for the Trolls on the Echo Isles, and expand out a full city on Azshara for the Goblins. I'm not 100% sure what to do with Pandaren for either race, but there are spots you could build a good home for them. Either that, or allow them to go back to the turtle like Monks can now.

[Steampunkette]

Interesting angle... What if the Nelves and the Forsaken swap styles?

The Forsaken have long lived in plague lands and corrupted places of darkness. What if they get put into Ashenvale or somewhere like that that they'll eventually (Probably) corrupt over time. While the Nelves wind up in someplace that is Corrupted or Desolate, where they've got to try and make it healthier?

Would be an interesting swap!