Teldrassil is burned before Lordaeron is attacked

[Deleted]

Guess I'll never quite understand why people try to claim Sylvanas isn't evil for some reason. She's been portrayed as a villain from the get go. Not a villain without explained motives, but a villain nonetheless. I thought that's what her charm is anyway.

I mean that is because people only see Evil as evil. For people All evil is chaotic evil. She is a very driven evil.

[Faroth]

What I actually don't understand is that in Pandaria afaik Horde forces were pretty much decimated. Did the Horde suddenly gain that much power that they can provoke an all out war with the Alliance?

Technically....

Horde and Alliance lost MASSIVE numbers of soldiers in Northrend against the Scourge, not to mention additional casualties in the dragons' war.

Immediately afterwards, the Cataclysm wipes out massive amounts of resources, casualties in the disaster itself, plus the hardship that followed. During this, Garrosh launches his war, resulting in more casualties for both sides (I'd wager the Alliance lost more than the Horde during this conflict.)

Extending from that, directly into Mists of Pandaria, the war continues and the Horde and Alliance lose more forces in war, plus whatever resources and forces are lost on Pandaria itself to the war and the Sha. The Horde saw pretty bad losses of their most populous race, orcs, by losing them to Garrosh's forces and dying in the following battle in Orgrimmar.

WoD - I'd skip this. A small squadron of forces were the main contingent in parallel timeline Draenor for the majority and it was resources and troops from Draenor that made up a large quantity of the fighting there. Some were probably lost in the last patch for both sides.

Immediately after that, we have to be pumping everything we have left into the war effort against the Legion. It's unquestionably certain that that Horde and Alliance suffered a lot of casualties against the Legion, not to mention the resources it took to fund everything.

Bottom line, Horde was supposedly no longer a super power going into WoD but somehow proved to be completely equal to Alliance in WoD and Legion. Alliance lost massive numbers over the last number of expansions. Both should be pretty crippled from a military standpoint, resources should be strained, and morale should be at an all time low.

A world war should be utterly disastrous for both factions right now.


It does kind of make me wish Anh'Qiraj's war effort from the crafting side was implemented into BfA in some way, though.

[Deleted]

The "Raising them into battle" thing was a retroactive canonical revision because the Devs were stumped at Blizzcon and made something up off the cuff. It's a pile of bullshit they threw together to placate people when the gameplay mechanics crashed into Lore.

It should be ignored pretty much entirely because we're shown in the novels and the game that the Forsaken have complete free will.

So. Just to ask, what you are saying is,Lets ignore the facts, that it have been used as temporary mind control to let them go into a frenzy. It may not happend often, and only in times of battle. But Lets just be clear here. You are saying" ignore the lore, Go with my gut feeling"?

[Faroth]

Ok but who planted Teldrassil? Fandral Staghelm. Who was corrupted by the Nightmare? Fandral Staghelm. What is showing signs of lingering corruption? Teldrassil. So you've got a corrupted world tree planted by a puppet of the Nightmare and you're clinging to it like its some pristine gift of nature.

Wanna maybe get down off that high horse there and maybe concede that you should have burned Teldrassil yourselves years ago?

They addressed the corruption, cleansed Teldrassil, and it was blessed by the remaining Dragonflights. The Teldrassil corruption storyline was already resolved.

[Deleted]

That's a load of horseshit and you know it... Taraujo was firebombed by the Wildhammer and overrun by the Northwatch. Yeah, there were survivors who were captured and killed by the Quillboar, but the Alliance had their hand in the slaughter, as well. It's why Vendetta Point has people -from- Taraujo in it. People who saw what the Northwatch did, there, and refused to back down when Honor's Stand's soldiers moved out.

- - - Updated - - -



The Looters who abandoned the fight to steal shit from the rubble were arrested. General Hawthorne was not. It was up to the Horde to take down the Butcher of Taraujo.

I don't know if you played the Alliance side too, but that was most painful. At that time I came from Ashenvale and everything to the Barrens and felt quite... I don't know... righteous in my fury against the Horde. But oh man.... I hated the Alliance (as an Alliance character) after that. Especially I hated the fact that I coudn't kill the stupid dwarf who merrily reveled in the bloodshed of Tauren and children and was mad at the General, because he wanted to keep things as civil as he could and wanted to go out, looking at the battle himself. I came back from a quest and told the dwarf, the Horde is planning to murder the General, when he goes out and the dwarf says, oh, that's great, that's going to make everyone want revenge and blood even more! ....
And then I went there on my Hordie and killed the General.
Boy... I hated both Horde and Alliance after the Barrens, I can tell you that.


Btw
I really like your posts and the amount of thought you put into them.

[Synros]

On the last point: She raised those people and gave them their free will. She didn't force them into her service.

And, honestly, I'd probably prefer to be raised if I were a civilian killed in a war like what happenedi n Silverpine, as compared to being left in the Barrens to rot, like what happened, to children, in Taraujo.

You mean the "free will" of "serve me or go back to being dead"?... She used those loyal to her as cannon fodder...

Also, what the Alliance have done is irreverent to what we're currently talking about. Sylvannis doesn't become a "good person" just because the Alliance have done bad shit too. That's not how it works...

[Steampunkette]

So. Just to ask, what you are saying is,Lets ignore the facts, that it have been used as temporary mind control to let them go into a frenzy. It may not happend often, and only in times of battle. But Lets just be clear here. You are saying" ignore the lore, Go with my gut feeling"?

I'm saying when confronted with facts, go with the facts. When facts conflict, go with the one that is reproduceable. Y'know. Like Science!

Sylvanas is big on free will. She fought Arthas as soon as she had it. She gave free will to every Forsaken she found. When she started making new Forsaken, she made sure the Val'kyr gave them complete freedom. Then suddenly she raises people with direct mind control for one set of quests in a single part of a war effort that's spanned a big chunk of a continent when she's held to freedom up 'til that point. Then she goes back to free will again in the novels, including the most recent one in which the Forsaken of the Desolate Council disagree with her.

One of these things is not like the others! One of these things just isn't the same! One of these things is not like the others! One of these things just doesn't belong!

So yeah. Screw the dev who got cornered on a gameplay question and tried to create a Lore reason for it on the fly and screw that retroactive explanation that completely undermines EVERYTHING ELSE PROVIDED. It's a dumb ruling that makes no sense to cover a plot hole that just creates an even bigger one within the character of Sylvanas.

Had he said "The Val'kyr decided to go against Sylvanas's wishes and enslave those farmers" it would've made more sense, 'cause the Val'kyr don't care about free will in the Forsaken. But nope! He decided to make a blanket bullshit call that undermines all the shit that comes before and after.

I don't know if you played the Alliance side too, but that was most painful. At that time I came from Ashenvale and everything to the Barrens and felt quite... I don't know... righteous in my fury against the Horde. But oh man.... I hated the Alliance (as an Alliance character) after that. Especially I hated the fact that I coudn't kill the stupid dwarf who merrily reveled in the bloodshed of Tauren and children and was mad at the General, because he wanted to keep things as civil as he could and wanted to go out, looking at the battle himself. I came back from a quest and told the dwarf, the Horde is planning to murder the General, when he goes out and the dwarf says, oh, that's great, that's going to make everyone want revenge and blood even more! ....
And then I went there on my Hordie and killed the General.
Boy... I hated both Horde and Alliance after the Barrens, I can tell you that.


Btw
I really like your posts and the amount of thought you put into them.

Thank you!

[Blamblam41]

Oh the Sylv is evil therefore she did it because i dun like her

Yawnnnn, heard this many times before.

About as often as Jaina, Wrathion and Genn being 'evil'.

Though, atleast they aren't resurrecting dead humans and elves to join an immortal army occupying a fallen human kingdom of which there are still living survivors of.
That would be, you know, evil.

[Florena]

It's lore whether you like it or not, whether it makes a character a hypocrite or not. I don't deny the barrens stuff because theramore doing anything aggressive is against HER character. Taking away the devs answer only makes this situation WORSE than what the game alone shows with raising and charming those undead.

[Blamblam41]

The "Raising them into battle" thing was a retroactive canonical revision because the Devs were stumped at Blizzcon and made something up off the cuff. It's a pile of bullshit they threw together to placate people when the gameplay mechanics crashed into Lore.

It should be ignored pretty much entirely because we're shown in the novels and the game that the Forsaken have complete free will.

Sounds like the same retroactive canonical revision that brought us back in time in another dimension and the flying purple pickle with warglaives.

Also, free will is absurdly subjective. Are you sure Forsaken have the free will of a human, or a trained dog? They are still both types of 'free will', one is just conditioned psychologically to obey orders.

[Steampunkette]

It's lore whether you like it or not, whether it makes a character a hypocrite or not. I don't deny the barrens stuff because theramore doing anything aggressive is against HER character. Taking away the devs answer only makes this situation WORSE than what the game alone shows with raising and charming those undead.

No. It REALLY DOESN'T.

If you take away that lore answer, you get a bunch of farmers who sign on with the Forsaken 'cause they've been raised from the dead. Maybe they don't see another option. Maybe they always hated the Alliance. Maybe they're angry the Alliance didn't save them and lash out. You get a hell of a lot more INTERESTING STORIES that way.

As opposed to "Well... shit. We didn't think about that. Here, let me throw something off the cuff that completely undermines everything we've built up so far on Sylvanas 'cause that's a better plot hole than this one!"

Though sure. Let's go with the "Those who are raised in battle are raised with battle-lust under the person who raised them" That would still be the Val'kyr and not Sylvanas. Maybe she didn't know? If she did, there's no way she'd have said "Okay, let's do that" because of EVERYTHING ELSE written about her and free will.

That, at least, would make SOME kind of sense. Especially since in the latest novel she and Blightcaller specifically -talk- about the Free Will she gives the undead and she doesn't so much as have a momentary flashback to "That time I didn't give people free will and instead totally played Arthas!"

But nah. You're gonna tell me she's just a hypocrite 'cause it fits your personal worldview best. It's the thing I said, before, about making political positions part of your personal identity. Anything that supports your position is incredibly important. Everything that undermines it or flatly shows it to be false is rejected automatically.

As to Taraujo: Jaina had nothing to do with that. It was clearly a General under her command making the decision independent of her character. As I would say the Val'kyr had done, if I were the dev in question...

[Enthusiastic Steward]

They addressed the corruption, cleansed Teldrassil, and it was blessed by the remaining Dragonflights. The Teldrassil corruption storyline was already resolved.

It wasn't blessed by Nozdormu. The blessing itself didn't cleanse the corruption. Its planting to begin with was still an arrogant mistake. Nobody forced you to leave Ashenvale and go live in an at-the-time corrupted tree that was sold to you on an empty lie (restoration of immortality).

[Pastaman]

Have you seen the Horde Cinematic? The horde was overrun. It was leave, or die. They didn't just "abandon" the alliance.

They may not have had a choice in retreating, but they could have warned the Alliance and tried to buy them a little time to get it together and retreat themselves. That's what really cost Varian's life. If they had a little more time they could have gotten away clean.

[Steampunkette]

Just to be certain, I went to "Ask a CDev 3" to read the thing on Forsaken and their battle lust.

It also says that those raised are given the same ultimatum as all forsaken: Join the Horde or Die. Which makes NO SENSE since we're clearly shown that Forsaken are also given the option of "Go do whatever" when Redpath and his Rotbrains form their own Forsaken (With Elbows!) and Lillian Voss goes home, then murders a bunch of Scarlets and heads to Scholomance without once bending the knee to Sylvanas or the Horde, then vanishes 'til she joins up with the PC, whether Horde or Alliance, in Legion.

[Florena]

No no no no. You do not get an 'interesting story.' You see farmers raised up and then fight their former comrades without a second thought, with no iota of hesitation or any sign of free will or having their choice explained to them. If we go by gameplay, it heavily implies MIND CONTROL which is why the dev had to dial it back to a gray area. There was no scene where those farmers were raised, they were raised and then sent off to fight the Alliance. The idea of them hating the alliance or being mad at it or whatever, that's your headcanon that is not shown in game in that story.

We see the choice in tirisfal but NOT wpl which is why the concern was brought up. The game does not infer they were given the choice off screen between being raised and fighting the alliance. Hence the confusion followed by a lore dev.

They could have said 'the choice happebed just wasn't shown to keep the pace un gameplay.' They could have just picked another question to answer. Instead we got an explanation that makes sense.

[Steampunkette]

No no no no. You do not get an 'interesting story.' You see farmers raised up and then fight their former comrades without a second thought, with no iota of hesitation or any sign of free will or having their choice explained to them. If we go by gameplay, it heavily implies MIND CONTROL which is why the dev had to dial it back to a gray area. There was no scene where those farmers were raised, they were raised and then sent off to fight the Alliance. The idea of them hating the alliance or being mad at it or whatever, that's your headcanon that is not shown in game in that story.

That's the point, Florena. If we're told there's no mind control involved by the canon, repeatedly, then it comes to a question of WHY they turn against the Alliance. Which is where the headcanons or later stories come out of those farmer NPCs at some later date in a questline for Battle for Azeroth, for example.

Instead we got "Well there's a -little- mind control, but not a lot!" which still blows a hole in the whole character of Sylvanas they've built to that point, and continued building after that point.

And also the whole "Join or die!" which is totally not followed through in the game itself and makes no sense, either.

It's just a lot of frustration all around.

[Souflikar]

murica is not exactly overflowing with honor

Yeah, we should be more like NoWay who's only contribution to the world is cheese slicers.

[Deleted]

Just to be certain, I went to "Ask a CDev 3" to read the thing on Forsaken and their battle lust.

It also says that those raised are given the same ultimatum as all forsaken: Join the Horde or Die. Which makes NO SENSE since we're clearly shown that Forsaken are also given the option of "Go do whatever" when Redpath and his Rotbrains form their own Forsaken (With Elbows!) and Lillian Voss goes home, then murders a bunch of Scarlets and heads to Scholomance without once bending the knee to Sylvanas or the Horde, then vanishes 'til she joins up with the PC, whether Horde or Alliance, in Legion.

Oh! By the way.... Lillian Voss. She gives out the last quests for the Uncrowned, where you are being sent to take care of some demonic homunculi posing as important people in faction capitals, and those can not be detected by anyone other than herself, not even the demon hunters.
And while that wasn't an issue during all the other quests, where Alliance rogues get sent into Alliance territory to do... things.. she specifically sends you to the opposite faction, to make it look like an enemy faction incursion and not like just any murder.
While I did think it made for interesting play and sneaking into enemy capitals was something I had not done since Cata and is a lot harder now compared to Vanilla, I also thought that was odd.
Lillian Voss is a person that I would not write off as being a Void-agent. I'd not put it past her to have a hand in the scheming if anything is an 'accident' with the whole of Teldrassil burning down.

[Florena]

Does it harm Sylvannas' character a bit? Maybe depending on how you view the post. But just because they flubbed and made up something to hand wave it away doesn't mean that flub didn't happen and the reasoning isn't canon. They didn't HAVE to answer that question, and they didn't have to give the answer they did.

They could have just as easily said 'they had the choice but we didn't show it because it would interrupt the flow of gameplay.' If they had said that, I would accept those farmers got a proper choice. But that's not what they said, and I'm going with the answer they gave. It was from a prepared Q and A if I remember how these things worked correctly, it's not like someone was caught off guard at a blizzcon panel and they just threw out something off the cuff.

[Aaronioslo]

Yeah, we should be more like NoWay who's only contribution to the world is cheese slicers.

at least we don't have a mass shooting 3 times a week, and we are not going around the world murdering people