Let's talk about Sylvanas (No she isnt evil).

[Fayenoor]

So following your logic Sylvanas should blame only herself when Arthas killed her. Because he wasn't intended to kill her he just wanted sunwell and offered her several times to back off. Good to know. /s

If Arthas had just killed her in battle and let it be at that, then Sylvanas would have just been a victim of War, like millions of others who die in war. But Arthas went one step further -- he resurrected her, turned her into his slave and displayed her in chains in front of her own people.

Liam died in battle defending his father, who incidentally sought out Sylvanas specifically to have it out with her. Liam died in battle.
Did Sylvanas have her Valkyrs rez Liam and turn him into a Forsaken and make him fight against his own people? She could have done that. If I was turning Sylvanas into an evil queen, I would have written the lore to make her do just that.

[Highwhale]

If Arthas had just killed her in battle and let it be at that, then Sylvanas would have just been a victim of War, like millions of others who die in war. But Arthas went one step further -- he resurrected her, turned her into his slave and displayed her in chains in front of her own people.

Read lore or go play W3 again - Arthas resurrected her only because she was so annoying to him. Her stubbornness lead to Arthas resurrecting her as banshee. So its completely Sylvanas fault for being killed and become undead - its your logic dude. Not mine.

Liam died in battle defending his father, who incidentally sought out Sylvanas specifically to have it out with her. Liam died in battle.
Did Sylvanas have her Valkyrs rez Liam and turn him into a Forsaken and make him fight against his own people? She could have done that. If I was turning Sylvanas into an evil queen, I would have written the lore to make her do just that.

Don't go circles. You said Genn is at to blame for Sylvanas killing Lliam.

[nerv234]

Sylvanass isn't evil, she is complex same as Genn he is complex too. And none of gayduin fanboys can tell me he is good(isolationism in face of war, not helping other of his kind...).

Here are my points about some of alliance fanboys that they are using:
- enslaving whole race bs: not whole race, only Eyir and use her to create new Val'kyrs(the existing ones were under Odyn's "enslavement" (and don't even start to reply with "Odyn is good character" bs). Btw. about enslavement someone forgot to regulate work enslavement(if u don't know stormwind didnt pay stonemasons guild for rebuilding city, people work hard and got kicked out while on the horde side Thrall paid large amount of gold to Gazlowe for rebuilding Orgrimmar in cataclysm).
- raising undead angainst their will: in starting zone we clearly see that undeads that don't want to be undead can chose death(nothing against their will).
- Sylvanas's Val'kyrs are raising mindless undead: what us of mindless undead she would have? Inteligent army is more usefull.
- she attacked Gileas and do genocide: this is not my justification but she was forced to attack Gilneas by Garrosh and he left Cromush to "make sure" she will act as he wants, not that she would not want to attack Gilneas, but my point is Garrosh was the trigger.
- whole burning tree stuff: we don't know context and this is blizzard intention to make ppl angry about that and trigger topics like "who struck first" and "their are pure evil they started". And im almost entirely sure that it'll be like old gods influenced someone to start it...
- she thinks about starting a war.... tell me that Greymane doesn't and is ok with what happened to his son.

Btw. all those alliance fanboys who want Sylvanas dead imagine alternative story:
Varian dies, then humans don't have any kind of leadership over them(due to something that was not even explained for whole expansion) then Geen takes leadership over alliance, sits on the throne for an expansion(btw this Geen dont have kids that are put ingame so no daughter for him) and then he dies leaving worgen race without leadership and then Malfurion being chosed as leader of alliance while Anduin would take rule over humans of Stormwind but with nobles of stormwind making decisions instead of him. Sounds bad? then imagine that atop of this Velen go shadow priest a few expansions earlier and was on the way to be put down. And i forgot about two genocides of worgens each one taking half of their population down so they are around 1/4 of their starting one with promise that maybe blizzard will give them another leader. Ant there is one happy information about them, they build a small willage that acts as their home.

Now if you realy imagine that then you should try to understand the position which blizzard is placing horde and it's player base. Horde dont want to lose yet another Warchief, we lose one in wotlk/cata transition, another one at the end of mop and yet another in legion intro. It is time to show alliance as the bad ones and make them punching bags for a while.

Btw. Anduin is very young and can be easily influenced by other trusted people aka Greymane.
And fan fact i think that if Anduin refuse to march on Undercity Genn and his people would start to bite human population of stormwind making the worgens and the march on UC himself.

[Deleted]

Yeah I agree, Sylvanas is extremely attractive and not evil.

[Fayenoor]

Read lore or go play W3 again - Arthas resurrected her only because she was so annoying to him.

Huh?

Your enemy is always annoying to you. It is their job. It was her job to defend her people. She lost. He killed her. He didn't have to resurrect her to prove a point. he already proved the point - he is a better fighter. To resurrect her is pure evil. I suppose you can say that he was paying her a compliment by resurrecting her.

Don't go circles. You said Genn is at to blame for Sylvanas killing Lliam.

Yes. I am not going in circles. Genn is the one who went and sought Sylvanas out. He wanted to fight her. That's fine. Liam stepped it. And died. How is Sylvanas to blame for that? Her arrows don't lock onto targets like in-game, you know.

If Genn hadn't gone out seeking an opponent more powerful than him, his son could have lived.

[Hellrime]

Being an opportunist doesn't make her a great leader. Her rallying cry seemed more out of desperation than to instill courage. She has always been an opportunist, she knew that they were getting their asses handed to them and she was next, it was more of a desperate cry. There absolutely was no hesitation in the Legion cinematic, remorse yes, but initial hesitation, no. Great way to repay those who are essentially the reason the Forsaken still even have a home, i.e. The Battle For Undercity.

[Highwhale]

Huh?

Your enemy is always annoying to you. It is their job. It was her job to defend her people. She lost. He killed her. He didn't have to resurrect her to prove a point. he already proved the point - he is a better fighter. To resurrect her is pure evil. I suppose you can say that he was paying her a compliment by resurrecting her.

Yes. I am not going in circles. Genn is the one who went and sought Sylvanas out. He wanted to fight her. That's fine. Liam stepped it. And died. How is Sylvanas to blame for that? Her arrows don't lock onto targets like in-game, you know.

If Genn hadn't gone out seeking an opponent more powerful than him, his son could have lived.

WoW great deduction... I just can't. So stupid.

[Deleted]

but .. she is evil. You can maybe argue lawfull evil(evil with rules, those rules are survival for herself, which later become for the forsaken people. but still evil)
She is evil. She happely is useing Plague weapons on Civilians and military, She have showen to imprison and toture anyone who does not agree with her, such as Koltira Deathweaver, when he allowed the last of the alliance civilians and military to retret when they lost the battle for andorhall.

She want to enslave more val'kyr with force to build her everlasting army, ones more, not asking politetly but with force and Helya artifacts

She wanted more land, and so invaded Gilneas, seeing it was a fully "civilised" people, she decided "fuck them kill them all anyway" She saw people that was not her own and was happy by Plague bombing the living hell out of them.

she have never cared for the Horde, only saw them as meatshield between the enemy and Herself, so she does not die.

[Yarathir]

The absolute state of Sylvanas fans. They have to turn her into everything she is not to feel they can justifiably like her.

[Hellrime]

Huh?

Your enemy is always annoying to you. It is their job. It was her job to defend her people. She lost. He killed her. He didn't have to resurrect her to prove a point. he already proved the point - he is a better fighter. To resurrect her is pure evil. I suppose you can say that he was paying her a compliment by resurrecting her.



Yes. I am not going in circles. Genn is the one who went and sought Sylvanas out. He wanted to fight her. That's fine. Liam stepped it. And died. How is Sylvanas to blame for that? Her arrows don't lock onto targets like in-game, you know.

If Genn hadn't gone out seeking an opponent more powerful than him, his son could have lived.

Don't understand how after what Sylvanas did to the Gilnean's that anyone could even conceive a person's want of revenge is wrong. It is the World of Warcraft equivalent of victim shaming.

[Yarathir]

Don't understand how after what Sylvanas did to the Gilnean's that anyone could even conceive a person's want of revenge is wrong. It is the World of Warcraft equivalent of victim shaming.

No, it's a refusal to let anyone else be the victim. Horde always has to be the eternal victim and underdog, even when they're by far the aggressor in a vast majority of the cases nowadays.

[Deleted]

If Arthas had just killed her in battle and let it be at that, then Sylvanas would have just been a victim of War, like millions of others who die in war. But Arthas went one step further -- he resurrected her, turned her into his slave and displayed her in chains in front of her own people.

Liam died in battle defending his father, who incidentally sought out Sylvanas specifically to have it out with her. Liam died in battle.
Did Sylvanas have her Valkyrs rez Liam and turn him into a Forsaken and make him fight against his own people? She could have done that. If I was turning Sylvanas into an evil queen, I would have written the lore to make her do just that.

But she still killed him ? What's your point ? I don't get it.
So let's say you're getting robbed, or whatever, and your son gets killed in the process, trying to protect you.
You'd be like "oh yeah, whatever, he's dumb yo" ? Just think before you write anything, dude

[Eapoe]

I don't view her as evil, but definitely morally corrupt.
She was killed while defending Silvermoon, tortured constantly until being enslaved as a Banshee. Reclaimed her independence and freedom using backstabbing and lies. After breaking free from the LK, she still sent supplies to the BE's to help support them.
She is a ruthless war leader, using any means necessary to protect herself and her people. Is it honorable? Not at all. She uses her weapons available to her to stop an enemy force and doesn't care about civilians caught in between, unless they are her own.
As far as Genn, Syl, and Liam, I feel like Genn is completely justified wanting revenge, but it's not like Syl cut Liam's throat while he slept in bed 100 miles away from any conflict. Syl and Genn were in battle and Liam jumped in of the arrow to save his father. The end.
Enslaving the Valk? Who knows how that would turn out. Yeah, probably villainous by some; yet, she was only using it to ensure her immortality. Does it make it right, or even okay? Nah, however this is a character who has been dead before and is trying to escape her fate using any means necessary.
The game is filled with characters who are morally corrupt and deal in gray areas, on both sides. If you want to call her evil for her choices that's cool, but if you've ever applauded Illidan for being some great hero you have no right to. This is a character who caused genocide, enslaved races, and murdered daily. Does it matter he did all that for a higher cause? Remember, that regardless of the outcome, he has done things more evil and on a grander scale than Syl. So sure, call her evil, but don't do it in the same breath you mention your Alliance saviour Illidan.

[Irian]

I kind of agree that I feel like people are weirdly missing out on Sylvanas's character development in that scene. Both of the leaders had a "coming into their own" moment.

Sylvanas is terrified of death most of all, more than anything else. At first you see her in the ramparts giving commands against a unified and much larger Alliance force that is practically decimating their ranks. She realizes she can't flee and that her defensive line between her and eternal hell is fading and so she has a "fuck it" moment and jumps in herself, risking everything to turn the tide and inspire her army.

To me I saw that as a clear turning point for her character where she realized what it means to be Warchief of the Horde. There's a lot of wordless storytelling in that cinematic so it'll remain to be seen though whether I'm just pulling it out of my ass or that's truly what it was supposed to represent.

[ThatsOurEric]

I'd say she's definitely Lawful Evil. Nothing wrong with those types, they make for
some very dynamic and interesting characters.

[Morssoe]

sylvanas is evil bitch who carry the will of undead. There is no way to justify that.

[IIamaKing]

Bitch is horde, Horde is evil, Bitch is evil.

[Tabrotar]

I hope someday I can turn a quaint coastal town into a green puddle and still have people saying I'm just misunderstood.

Nah won´t be happening because a certain amount of players (aka the sylvanas fanbois) will cry and rage and scream if her name isn´t praised in the highest sounds.

And yes i know i will get flak from the usual suspects because of this so go on i´m waiting.

[Deleted]

Sylvanas has a lot of problems - many of them aren't obvious to even devs. Then again I think they have a plan, a good plan. For all heroes including Sylvanas.

[A dot Ham]

If you think Sylvanas is just evil, then you must have a very narrow mind. Everything lately points to the opposite.

Let us review Sylvanas

Legion Intro - She shows clear respect for varian, and even saves his life by attacking an infernal that was no threat to heir own airship.

Broken shore - She VISIBLE hesitates to call for a retreat, despite a direct order from her warchief, only when he pleads for her to save lives does she call the retreat, using her val'kyr to carry wounded soldiers to safety, and later on the boat when she realises the consequence of her actions, she again show visible regret.

She is reluctant as all hell to pick up the mantle of warchief, but it is vol'jins dying wish that she does so.

Broken Isles - Here she clearly had an ulterior motive from the beginning, she has learnt of helya beforehand and she seeks to strike a bargain, because she has seen what awaits beyond undead, and she fears it, as would anyone. Her actions are cruel, crude and desperate, and because of this, she does also fail.

Before the Storm Prologue Chapter - She shows no real affection for the horde, displays clear annoyance over her being warchief and she is deeply offended by the desolate council and their will to not extend their lives any further. She also seems intent on bringing the war to the Alliance, probably more a matter of wanting Greymanes head on a platter.

- Now here we have a gap in the story, because some major shit clearly goes down between here and BFA main story with zandalar and kul'tiras.

But in the BFA Cinematic, we can see a horde ravaged by internal conflict and distrust, they lack zeal, they lack motivaiton and they lack belief in their cause. And this is apparent more so in Sylvanas than anyone else, she show genuine concern mixed with anger over the situation and eventually, she snaps. She goes into full on offense and disregards her own safety completely, she singlehandedly decimates several alliance soldiers and with a howling banshee cry she echoes one of the, if not THE most genuine "FOR THE HORDE" I've ever heard in Warcraft history. And you can SEE the light return to Saurfangs eyes, you can see him echo her zeal, you can see that he now see the Warchief in her. I never thought Sylvanas was fit to be warchief, I've for the longest time thought that an old school Thrall needed to return.

But you know what? The sylvanas I saw in that cinematic? I would follow her into battle any day. She was a true leader from that moment onwards, and you could tell, she now felt the horde for what it is. Her misfit extended Family.

Sylvanas is being taken in an amazing direction, and I applaud Blizzard for finally casting aside tropes and bullshit hollywood storyline thinking and going for something far more subtle, but much more effective.

This is very clear to someone with many years of fantasy reading and character development behind them. There have been subtle hints for a long time that Sylvanas is growing into something more than a powerhungry undead afraid of her final death.

I think narrow mindedness is running rampant then... there are clear and present blind spots and biases that are coming out in your nearly truthful regurgitation of lore and recent events.

Evil takes many forms. She may not be a villain, hell bent on dominance and ruin... but she doesn't care about anyone but herself.

She has demonstrated time and time again, she will do WHATEVER it takes to avoid that death.