The Brexit aftermath thread

[Mayhem]

Yeah, no. You are talking complete nonsense, that nobody agrees with, aside from you. The US WANTS a more powerful EU, contrary to your ridiculous claim of the opposite.

No, the US doesn't want a superpower equally as strong on the world stage. @Skroe little help here please?

[Tijuana]

http://www.heritage.org/europe/repor...ropes-security


or the best bit:
Rightly, the Clinton Administration wanted to see a strong and enlarged NATO continue under U.S. leadership. Consequently, after the St. Malo meeting, the U.S. drew red lines on what it would find acceptable for EU defense integration for the first time.
Again - It does not matter what the US taxpayer thinks, the US sees independent EU military capabilities as a problem.

This has literally NOTHING to do with what I said. I never made a distinction between EU forces, and the forces of individual EU nations. This has nothing to do with my point, or the conversation I was having. This article is making a nuanced point about a topic we were not even discussing. It's like you just went to the google machine, and linked whatever came up.

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No, the US doesn't want a superpower equally as strong on the world stage. @Skroe little help here please?

That's not what I said. I said the US wants the NATIONS of the EU to have responsible military forces, and that OBVIOUSLY strengthens the might of the alliance. I don't even...how can you be this....I should just shut up now, before the infraction man comes along.

The bottom line is, EVERY member of EVERY alliance, wants the other members to be something other than the laughingstock of military circles. That is just a fact. The whole point in making alliances, is to get someone with you, who is actually of some use. To quote every posters favorite person, Dick Cheney, "Going to war without France at your side is like going hunting without a marching band."

[Mayhem]

That's not what I said. I said the US wants the NATIONS of the EU to have responsible military forces, and that OBVIOUSLY strengthens the might of the alliance. I don't even...how can you be this....I should just shut up now, before the infraction man comes along.

Oh, sorry, was it not you who wrote that the US would leave NATO over brexit? Wait let's have a look shall we?

In which case the US would immediately leave NATO. There is zero chance the UK will be blackballed by the EU, given their relationship with the US. Get serious.

Hmm yes, yes it reads as if the US would use leaving NATO to coerce the EU in going against its interests and the interests of its citizens. Where do you think that would lead?

Also you wrote the US wants a more powerful EU, not more powerful NATO members, i figured you know that there is a difference, i guess i was wrong, you either think every other member of NATO is also a member of the EU or you just bullshitted your way into an argument you yourself brought into the discussion.

The bottom line is, EVERY member of EVERY alliance, wants the other members to be something other than the laughingstock of military circles. That is just a fact. The whole point in making alliances, is to get someone with you, who is actually of some use. To quote every posters favorite person, Dick Cheney, "Going to war without France at your side is like going hunting without a marching band."

Go ahead and try to change NATO rules then. What this has to do with brexit though is way beyond me. Oh and i'm still waiting for an answer to this question. I'm really curious what you wanted to say with this:

Figuring out a trade agreement is one thing. The threats of a total ban and standard passport agreements is obviously an absurd escalation that is purely retaliatory.

What threats of total ban and standard passport agreements?

[dribbles]

No, quite the opposite of what we have on our southern borders. And that right here, the bolded part, is why this will not go through, regardless of how much kicking or screaming you guys produce.

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It will go through, what happens on the UK border is no longer anything to do with the EU.

Both require a visa. Oh and you know what? Brits do too.

No they don't. From the horses mouth - https://uk.usembassy.gov/visas/visa-...r-program-vwp/

Do you need me to explain what waiver means in the visa waiver program? You can expect a similar system in place by the UK after March 2019, some Europeans from some EU countries will need visas to visit the UK, some will not. Just like the US system. Take back control you see, it's what it's all about.

[Shadowmelded]

Not legally no they can't. The Irish/UK have always had special privileges and free unfettered access to and from the UK and vice versa thanks to the CTA. Other Europeans will not have that privilege. A bit like some Europeans can go to the US with less restrictions placed upon them than others. Were you thinking that all Europeans should be treated the same?

Border controls are seen as no better than a hard border by Northern Irish Unionists. If you want to ensure no EU citizens will be coming across you'll need border controls.

[Deleted]

The whole point in making alliances, is to get someone with you, who is actually of some use.

You are answering your own question

Why are there negotiations needed? The UK left. It's over. What is the point? The EU can't stall it's way to keeping the UK in.

There are negotiations and deals to be struck because the EU-27 and the UK are invested in the interests of the other well beyond what their union represents. As is, for instance, security, NATO, travel, visas, commerce, customs, etc.
The EU is interested in the UK not becoming a pathetic puppet, and the UK is interested in having a "spacial relationship" with the EU. It just so happens that the EU has the upper hand, and the leverage.

[Mayhem]

It will go through, what happens on the UK border is no longer anything to do with the EU.



No they don't. From the horses mouth - https://uk.usembassy.gov/visas/visa-...r-program-vwp/

Do you need me to explain what waiver means in the visa waiver program? You can expect a similar system in place by the UK after March 2019, some Europeans from some EU countries will need visas to visit the UK, some will not. Just like the US system. Take back control you see, it's what it's all about.

Oh, you're right, it's not a visa it's that esta thing, eitherway you need to apply and be granted to travel to the US. Really a huge difference.

Yeah, of course, all of this will happen, i'm very sure of it, right around the time when boris becomes prime minister.

[Kiri]

Nevermind people, how exactly would customs work without a border between the Irelands? I mean goods could easily be moved and would not have to be declared if there are no controls at all. Why would either side want that?

[ranzino]

Nevermind people, how exactly would customs work without a border between the Irelands? I mean goods could easily be moved and would not have to be declared if there are no controls at all. Why would either side want that?

Ask the brits. unless they declare NI a customs free zone with Ireland (and also EU) it wont happen.
UK wants to square a circle here.

[Mittens]

You are answering your own question


There are negotiations and deals to be struck because the EU-27 and the UK are invested in the interests of the other well beyond what their union represents. As is, for instance, security, NATO, travel, visas, commerce, customs, etc.
The EU is interested in the UK not becoming a pathetic puppet to other powers, and the UK is interested in having a "spacial relationship" with the EU. It just so happens that the EU has the upper hand, and the leverage.

Let's be real for one moment.

[Slant]

It will go through, what happens on the UK border is no longer anything to do with the EU.



No they don't. From the horses mouth - https://uk.usembassy.gov/visas/visa-...r-program-vwp/

It doesn't matter what the UK wants. Either they let in all EU citizens without waivers or there won't be a deal. The UK may make a difference between Polish and German citizens, the EU doesn't. And since it's pretty much known that the UK can't possibly have border control installed on the Irish-NI border, unless they plan to break the GFA, the EU doesn't just know what the UK's leverage is exactly, they also know that all they have to do is wait for the UK to cave.

Right now, everyone in Europe knows there can only be one outcome, except the British that hammered out the GFA to begin with. It's ironic how that piece of paper bites you in the ass now. There will be political damage for some politicians in the UK, that's for sure.

[dribbles]

It doesn't matter what the UK wants. Either they let in all EU citizens without waivers or there won't be a deal. The UK may make a difference between Polish and German citizens, the EU doesn't. And since it's pretty much known that the UK can't possibly have border control installed on the Irish-NI border, unless they plan to break the GFA, the EU doesn't just know what the UK's leverage is exactly, they also know that all they have to do is wait for the UK to cave.

Right now, everyone in Europe knows there can only be one outcome, except the British that hammered out the GFA to begin with. It's ironic how that piece of paper bites you in the ass now. There will be political damage for some politicians in the UK, that's for sure.

No there won't be a deal as I've said all along, with half the government supporting that position it is just a matter of time before the UK declares that as from April 2019 it will be subject to WTO rules. No divorce payment made, no membership of the customs union, no hard border with Ireland. Of course if the EU want to erect a hard border in Ireland then good luck with that.

[Deleted]

No there won't be a deal as I've said all along, with half the government supporting that position it is just a matter of time before the UK declares that as from April 2019 it will be subject to WTO rules. No divorce payment made, no membership of the customs union, no hard border with Ireland. Of course if the EU want to erect a hard border in Ireland then good luck with that.

so again you advocate no deal which means a hard border with ireland has to happen both for the UK to inspect goods coming in and the EU inspecting goods going into it. (its not a matter of whether they want one or not its a legal process) As well as no deal meaning no aviation deal...no citizens rights deal...no euratom deal, and all the other things ive previously mentioned, as well as renegotiating over 700 odd trade deals with other countries in the space of 2 years? where will the civil servants come from that are going to do this?

The best thing about all this is that a conservative government buddying with the DUP might lead to the reunification of ireland and scotland ditching the UK.

[Slant]

No there won't be a deal as I've said all along, with half the government supporting that position it is just a matter of time before the UK declares that as from April 2019 it will be subject to WTO rules. No divorce payment made, no membership of the customs union, no hard border with Ireland. Of course if the EU want to erect a hard border in Ireland then good luck with that.

It's not "good luck with that", it's going to happen unilaterally from the Irish side. I wonder how your face will look when that happens and you realise the UK is actually not the centre of all things and the world can do things that will break UK's agreements without the UK having the power to stop it.

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The best thing about all this is that a conservative government buddying with the DUP might lead to the reunification of ireland and scotland ditching the UK.

To be honest, those two things seem more unlikely than a no deal at this point.

[dribbles]

It's not "good luck with that", it's going to happen unilaterally from the Irish side. I wonder how your face will look when that happens and you realise the UK is actually not the centre of all things and the world can do things that will break UK's agreements without the UK having the power to stop it.

Not a chance. The IRA will not allow Brussels to impose a hard Irish/UK border, the EU ignore them at their peril. The UK will not violate the GFA and the EU won't dare either. There are enough terrorist attacks in the EU at the minute without looking for more.

[Deleted]

Not a chance. The IRA will not allow Brussels to impose a hard Irish/UK border, the EU ignore them at their peril. The UK will not violate the GFA and the EU won't dare either. There are enough terrorist attacks in the EU at the minute without looking for more.

you realise that its the UK potentially trashing the GFA not the EU by leaving right?

[dribbles]

you realise that its the UK potentially trashing the GFA not the EU by leaving right?

For the avoidance of doubt, the side which imposes a hard border between Ireland and the UK will be the one to violate the GFA. I repeat the UK will not be responsible for the imposition of that border, if the EU try to build, pay for and enforce one against the wishes of Irish republicans then good luck with that.

[Deleted]

For the avoidance of doubt, the side which imposes a hard border between Ireland and the UK will be the one to violate the GFA. I repeat the UK will not be responsible for the imposition of that border, if the EU try to build, pay for and enforce one against the wishes of Irish republicans then good luck with that.

how will the UK control its borders without one?

[ranzino]

Then NI is somewhat free of customs control and full of personal freedom of movement.
Where do you want to install the border then, unless you want to impose a border within the Irish Sea and control everything upon entering mainland UK ? NI would become an exclave technically. EU would be fine with that.

[Vankrys]

For the avoidance of doubt, the side which imposes a hard border between Ireland and the UK will be the one to violate the GFA. I repeat the UK will not be responsible for the imposition of that border, if the EU try to build, pay for and enforce one against the wishes of Irish republicans then good luck with that.

i was under the impression it was the UK who want to control their immigration and thus imposing border. I though that was the whole brexit driving force to control your border once again.

Did i misunderstand?