''A terrible discovery will test both Sylvanas and Anduin as leaders''

[Friendlyimmolation]

.....in stormheim...she tried to enslave the val'kyr.
Point 1: enslaving is against the code of the forsaken!! look it up on all the wow wiki's
point 2: And that is more for herself. A val'kyr can ress low people like us hero's. But someone like sylvannas it takes several val'kyr sacrificing themselves to ress her...again look it up on ANY wow wiki.

Look it up. play the game...i have even linked it in this thread....Its in the books 2!!

Your point is not backed by anything, rather than your own interpretation of the canon.

If she had Eyir she could have made as many Valkyr as she wanted, that meant saved forsaken and Saved Sylvanas. The argument that she chose her people over herself, is just as applicable with the points made.

The law of the Forsaken isn't broken if Eyir wasn't a forsaken.

Edit:

Use WoWpedia, not WoWiki.

[baskev]

Yeah, no. The preview of the book was the first mention of that ever, which in turn covered a reaction of a tiny group of Forsaken (not even all of the Desolate Council members expressed such sentiments) to a rather recent development (Sylvanas going after infinite Val'kyr). In regards to the first sentence, when did she decide that, again?




And how the hell is that even relevant, let alone somehow proves your point, when she'd have infinite Val'kyr had she succeeded?

live forever bid: My mistake then...not all of the , just part of the forsaken...( that is still not no one at all).

she is more worth: Because val'kyr keep ressing her even though she is running out of them. If she really cared she would say...do not kill yourselfs otherwise my people are dead.

How is that relevant?? Okay lets start from the beginning.
Forsaken hate enslavement ( and enslaving people) > She wanted to enslave a group

She uses the excuse that she needs them to save her people.

Her people can be ressed without sacrifice of a val'kyr and she still has some left ( 4 or 5?) . So she does not need them that hard for them......BUT>>>>> who needs 1 or more val'kyr to ress herself... ( a thing she can tell them not to do)??

So how is the relevant? The only reason she needs more val'kyr is to ress herself more times...if 4 or 5 can keep ressing low level forsaken then they have enough. But if sylvanna's needs to be ressed 1 or 2 times you ran out of them. So that is why its relevant. Its the only reason for more Val'kyr. Because the ones that died so far all died saving sylvanna's!
It proofs my point that its not for them but for her she is doing it!
And yes infinite val'kyr would be nice for her...but again from the wiki:

Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.


Lets put it this way: You think a modern day black american will take a middle eastern as a slave and make him/her work for free/until death??

[McFuu]

If Azeroth "died" would it really matter? If anything it would make Azeroth appeal less to people like the Legion and the Void Lords if there was no Titan there to corrupt. There are other planets that aren't pre-titans that are inhabited, so maybe the best way to save Azeroth is to just kill it.

[baskev]

Your point is not backed by anything, rather than your own interpretation of the canon.

If she had Eyir she could have made as many Valkyr as she wanted, that meant saved forsaken and Saved Sylvanas. The argument that she chose her people over herself, is just as applicable with the points made.

The law of the Forsaken isn't broken if Eyir wasn't a forsaken.

Edit:

Use WoWpedia, not WoWiki.

Point 1: ( smart ass this is from wowpedia )
Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

Each Forsaken member follow their queen for various reasons: fear, loyalty, no where else to go.

as for the second part:
Yes...but point 1 makes it against the will of her people . And the forsaken can be ressed with ease by val'kyr..but sylvannas needs val'kyr to sacrifice themselves for her. Ergo the 4 to 5 val'kyr she has left is enough to keep ressing new forsaken etc. But not enough to ress her forever. AKA its for her!!!!!

They are for free will..but only for people they choose you are saying?? That is up to the lore writers over at blizzard. I think if a race in wow has a core belief they try to extent that to all races. You clearly do not.

- - - Updated - - -

I know what she did.
Point 1: Murder is also against our laws. But our government wouldn't even hesitate to shoot someone if it would safe our entire country.
Point 2: If you read the quests it shows you that it is about the entire race.

PS. Use wowpedia, not wowwiki.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH smartasses....i used wowpedia

look at chapter 4.2 :https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forsaken

point 1: Yes, but does mark rotkop bomb the whole middle east to stop 1 person from saving our country? Or better said does he enslave them to fill our hospitals with donors to save our people who need new organs??? Nope....

Point 2: Again....what she is telling might not be the truth...it does not take the lives of val'kyr to ress forsaken. But it does to ress her. So they have enough to ress her people....but not to ress her people AND her...so for who is it again...
or using your real life stuff.

we have 5 people that supply all the organs we need for all our people and these people do not die giving away their organs ( they are wolverine's :P)
But Mark ruftkop also needs organs...and 1 of those people die's everytime he needs a organ. Then the only reason for running out of them is because he uses them to get organs. So the only reason to get more of these infinite organ donor,s is because you are running out of them. what is the cause for running out off them?...and that means the organ donors are for who????

[willtron]

They're siblings.

[baskev]

Yes?
Modern-day slavery is a thing.
And even African-Americans do it.

......WTF gozer.....

Modern day slavery is real yeah....
But i am talking about the former slaves that are african americans!!!! and you are saying that african americans are slave owners?????? wtf dude

[Friendlyimmolation]

Point 1: ( smart ass this is from wowpedia )
Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

Each Forsaken member follow their queen for various reasons: fear, loyalty, no where else to go.

as for the second part:
Yes...but point 1 makes it against the will of her people . And the forsaken can be ressed with ease by val'kyr..but sylvannas needs val'kyr to sacrifice themselves for her. Ergo the 4 to 5 val'kyr she has left is enough to keep ressing new forsaken etc. But not enough to ress her forever. AKA its for her!!!!!

They are for free will..but only for people they choose you are saying?? That is up to the lore writers over at blizzard. I think if a race in wow has a core belief they try to extent that to all races. You clearly do not.

Free will for them is how every single race in WoW functions.


The first point does not make it against the will for her people. It seems you have a basic grasp of the Lore, but something is twisting it.

the Valkyr she has can't replenish all of the forsaken, something she wants to do, like she did with Nathanos, and therefore she needs more.

- - - Updated - - -

......WTF gozer.....

Modern day slavery is real yeah....
But i am talking about the former slaves that are african americans!!!! and you are saying that african americans are slave owners?????? wtf dude

There were black slave owners, Im not sure what you are even trying to say here.

Trafficking is still a think too.

[Aucald]

Let's pivot away from politics and this discussion of real-world slavery - return to the original topic concerning the "terrible discovery" from the "Before the Storm" book blurb.

[Sigxy]

I'd love to discuss but I don't believe these previews.
Remember when Sylvanas' legion bio stated that she would have to decide whether her soul was more important than her people?
And nothing happened

Yeah, I was wondering about that, too...

[Deleted]

It troubles me all in all : I mean many can brainstorm through various reasons for Sylvanas burning down the World Tree and some lore implications behind it -- emerald nightmare corruption to use Teldrassil as a gateway . Halls of Origination were a hard reset that would enable life to spring through the emerald dream again but Uldir may be able to do a whole format erasing the blueprints of the titans and starting a life with the blueprints of Nzoth or something in that line so to cancel the plans of nzoth we need to burn any possible connection of the emerald dream/nightmare with the real world (making it actually an undead planet lulwot). Anyways we can think of reasons for Sylvanas deciding to go forward and burn that world tree down but what about Anduin ? We know Wrathion is hosted in the Alliance Embassy so it cannot be that his end game is revealed to be a surprise for humans . What did he learn then ? (take in mind that Undercity siege looks like a retaliation movement - Genn says that the army has HER cornered as if Sylvanas is the target and not the city , meaning that the alliance target to capture Sylvanas and probably answer for her crimes?).

[baskev]

Free will for them is how every single race in WoW functions.


The first point does not make it against the will for her people. It seems you have a basic grasp of the Lore, but something is twisting it.

the Valkyr she has can't replenish all of the forsaken, something she wants to do, like she did with Nathanos, and therefore she needs more.

- - - Updated - - -



There were black slave owners, Im not sure what you are even trying to say here.

Trafficking is still a think too.

So now you are changing how free will works to suit your opinion okay.....

Okay lets explain it: Slavery is anything but free will, free will is what they stand fore. So taking away free will is not their cup of tea. Basic grasp? Wiki + ingame lore and some book lore all say the same thing. In the most recent books they talk about the council of shadows ( some of them) not being happy about all the free will stuff.

And for the val'kyr...they can ress allot of forsaken if not a shit ton...but a powerful one like herself takes a kills a val'kyr....And if she wants to do that for nathanos if he is to powerful it kills a val'kyr...but again she is going for the needs of few over the needs of the many!

---snip---

Infracted.

[Friendlyimmolation]

So now you are changing how free will works to suit your opinion okay.....

Okay lets explain it: Slavery is anything but free will, free will is what they stand fore. So taking away free will is not their cup of tea. Basic grasp? Wiki + ingame lore and some book lore all say the same thing. In the most recent books they talk about the council of shadows ( some of them) not being happy about all the free will stuff.

And for the val'kyr...they can ress allot of forsaken if not a shit ton...but a powerful one like herself takes a kills a val'kyr....And if she wants to do that for nathanos if he is to powerful it kills a val'kyr...but again she is going for the needs of few over the needs of the many!

---snip---

Infracted.

Do explain how making her Forsaken truly immortal is serving then needs of the few over all the forsaken.


And since you genuinely seem confused, you can preach free will for your people, and then still have prisoners, slaves etc. If they aren't your people.... its not breaking the cornerstone of the Forsaken.

[baskev]

Do explain how making her Forsaken truly immortal is serving then needs of the few over all the forsaken.


And since you genuinely seem confused, you can preach free will for your people, and then still have prisoners, slaves etc. If they aren't your people.... its not breaking the cornerstone of the Forsaken.

I would like to respond...but a moderator asked us to steer it back to the original post. And getting you a infraction is not worth it i think.

So what do we think its the dark terrible secret??

Azurite could be the thing...but we already have had some super weapons.
I think this has more to do with the next expansion.

[Mehrunes]

.....in stormheim...she tried to enslave the val'kyr.
Point 1: enslaving is against the code of the forsaken!! look it up on all the wow wiki's
point 2: And that is more for herself. A val'kyr can ress low people like us hero's. But someone like sylvannas it takes several val'kyr sacrificing themselves to ress her...again look it up on ANY wow wiki.

Look it up. play the game...i have even linked it in this thread....Its in the books 2!!

And you're still ignoring the fact that she'd have infinite Val'kyr - even though (or, perhaps more accurately, precisely because) it makes your argument as to why the Val'kyr meant she'd use them only for herself and not the Forsaken utterly moot - why exactly? Also, like Friendly said, the code of the Forsaken kinda applies to just Forsaken. No one in Undercity gave a shit about one of the Apothecaries making himself a lobotomized human servant.

[baskev]

And you're still ignoring the fact that she'd have infinite Val'kyr - even though (or, perhaps more accurately, precisely because) it makes your argument as to why the Val'kyr meant she'd use them only for herself and not the Forsaken utterly moot - why exactly? Also, like Friendly said, the code of the Forsaken kinda applies to just Forsaken. No one in Undercity gave a shit about one of the Apothecaries making himself a lobotomized human servant.

Like i said to the above post....we where asked to get back on topic..so i will not respond.

Original topic: what is the big bad secret that has gotten both panty's of both leaders in a twist.

- super weapon azurite ( we had WMD before so would be weak story wise)
- They think azoroth is dying and they are lashing out. ( but our diamond dwarf knows we can heal her)
- the big bad of the next expansion has dropped a bread crumb that is making them both act out?

[Mehrunes]

live forever bid: My mistake then...not all of the , just part of the forsaken...( that is still not no one at all).

And how is that a point anyway? She just learned of that sentiment existing among the Forsaken (after the Forsaken just recently learned about her plans for their race). Nothing in the preview said she's going to force immortality onto those who don't want it (well, ignoring the fact she didn't secure the Val'kyr).

she is more worth: Because val'kyr keep ressing her even though she is running out of them. If she really cared she would say...do not kill yourselfs otherwise my people are dead.

And she cannot preserve herself and the Forsaken, because? Besides, the Val'kyr made a pact that revolves around keeping Sylvanas alive and are bound by it even without Sylvanas' influence.

How is that relevant?? Okay lets start from the beginning.
Forsaken hate enslavement ( and enslaving people) > She wanted to enslave a group

There's a slave running around Undercity since vanilla. Forsaken hate their own people being enslaved. They don't really care much about others being enslaved. You don't see Forsaken activists in regions where other races participate in slavery, do you now? Besides, the topic of slavery has nothing to do with what I actually addressed.

She uses the excuse that she needs them to save her people.

Again, why can't she multitask with the use of the Val'kyr? Particularly in case she got an infinite supply of them, which was, you know, the context.

Her people can be ressed without sacrifice of a val'kyr and she still has some left ( 4 or 5?) . So she does not need them that hard for them......BUT>>>>> who needs 1 or more val'kyr to ress herself... ( a thing she can tell them not to do)??

We never see her Val'kyr resurrecting other Forsaken after they died as undead, so this is baseless speculation. Only new bodies can be, and they aren't in endless supply. And this still does nothing to address the context of infinite Val'kyr. And her plan for Eyir revolved around upgrading the Forsaken the same way she upgraded Nathanos (you know, making them actually immortal like what was talked about in the book preview), which severely weakens her Val'kyr. Who knows if not permanently. Which also goes against your narrative.

So how is the relevant? The only reason she needs more val'kyr is to ress herself more times...if 4 or 5 can keep ressing low level forsaken then they have enough. But if sylvanna's needs to be ressed 1 or 2 times you ran out of them. So that is why its relevant. Its the only reason for more Val'kyr. Because the ones that died so far all died saving sylvanna's!

Again, not only is the idea that resurrecting other undead doesn't sacrifice Val'kyr unsupported, but you're misrepresenting why she wanted more Val'kyr for the Forsaken to begin with. Also, Val'kyr are not immortal. One of the ones that died so far was weirdly enough killed by the Alliance rather than by ressing Sylvanas.

It proofs my point that its not for them but for her she is doing it!

It proves absolutely squat because you're misrepresenting and ignoring things that are inconvenient for you.

And yes infinite val'kyr would be nice for her...but again from the wiki:

Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

Which is irrelevant in this context. And still doesn't apply to non-Forsaken.

[baskev]

And how is that a point anyway? She just learned of that sentiment existing among the Forsaken (after the Forsaken just recently learned about her plans for their race). Nothing in the preview said she's going to force immortality onto those who don't want it (well, ignoring the fact she didn't secure the Val'kyr).




And she cannot preserve herself and the Forsaken, because? Besides, the Val'kyr made a pact that revolves around keeping Sylvanas alive and are bound by it even without Sylvanas' influence.




There's a slave running around Undercity since vanilla. Forsaken hate their own people being enslaved. They don't really care much about others being enslaved. You don't see Forsaken activists in regions where other races participate in slavery, do you now? Besides, the topic of slavery has nothing to do with what I actually addressed.




Again, why can't she multitask with the use of the Val'kyr? Particularly in case she got an infinite supply of them, which was, you know, the context.




We never see her Val'kyr resurrecting other Forsaken after they died as undead, so this is baseless speculation. Only new bodies can be, and they aren't in endless supply. And this still does nothing to address the context of infinite Val'kyr. And her plan for Eyir revolved around upgrading the Forsaken the same way she upgraded Nathanos (you know, making them actually immortal like what was talked about in the book preview), which severely weakens her Val'kyr. Who knows if not permanently. Which also goes against your narrative.




Again, not only is the idea that resurrecting other undead doesn't sacrifice Val'kyr unsupported, but you're misrepresenting why she wanted more Val'kyr for the Forsaken to begin with. Also, Val'kyr are not immortal. One of the ones that died so far was weirdly enough killed by the Alliance rather than by ressing Sylvanas.




It proves absolutely squat because you're misrepresenting and ignoring things that are inconvenient for you.




Which is irrelevant in this context. And still doesn't apply to non-Forsaken.

Dude...we where asked to stop...and talk about the main thread...you might get infrancted ( just a friendly warning here)!

[Mehrunes]

So now you are changing how free will works to suit your opinion okay.....

Okay lets explain it: Slavery is anything but free will, free will is what they stand fore. So taking away free will is not their cup of tea. Basic grasp? Wiki + ingame lore and some book lore all say the same thing. In the most recent books they talk about the council of shadows ( some of them) not being happy about all the free will stuff.

Imprisonment or experimentation on living subjects is also against the free will of those subjected to it, yet the Forsaken aren't against that. It's almost as if Forsaken: 1) cared about free will only in context of mental mind-fuckery like that of the Lich King because that's what they were subjected to and hated and 2) cared about free will of any kind for themselves and not other groups of individuals that aren't Forsaken.

And for the val'kyr...they can ress allot of forsaken if not a shit ton...but a powerful one like herself takes a kills a val'kyr....And if she wants to do that for nathanos if he is to powerful it kills a val'kyr...but again she is going for the needs of few over the needs of the many!

Literally how.

[baskev]

Literally how.

Dude again we where asked to stop!

[Aucald]

Dude...we where asked to stop...and talk about the main thread...you might get infrancted ( just a friendly warning here)!

Talking about slavery purely in the context of the Warcraft universe is fine, let's just avoid real-world politics and inflammatory comparisons. As long as the debate stays in the confines of WoW and is (mostly) relevant to the thread topic it's fine.