T21 Sim

[dark666105]

Given they said they would do most of the balancing AFTER Antorus is released I won't count on anything just yet.

[Zyrosis]

If using Blind Fury, there's never a reason to cancel EB, the damage is there, the opportunity cost with demon blades was the reason to not cast it and that was it.
4.5sec is basically a free soul on each EB, this will be great considering you want as many Beams as possible.

Well, with raddons the actual cd is easy to calculate, you can wait around 5s per add since that's nearly what you'd reduce the cd by, and the damage.

Eye Beam will easily deal 2.5-3mil damage per target, moreso if you hit the nemesis target/get the nemesis buff.
The damage might finally be comparable to other cleave specs.

The real problem is that the RNG will be ridiculous. To the point we'll either reroll or beg for a rework midway through antorus.

Actually, if using T21 there's a rather huge reason NOT to cancel Eyebeam, and that's the fact that if you don't get a fully channeled eyebeam you don't get the 40% haste.

[Fordprefect]

4.5sec* or less on ST,because sometimes you want to cancel that full channel eyebeam if your fury is going to be overflowed. besides to min/max that 4tier21 set bonus you wanna use eyebeam on cd for the nice haste proc, but then it contradicts the fact you need to save it for the adds to come out, so often time you will face a dilemma where if you hold on you lose some dps due to 4 set bonus, if you don't you can't use it for aoe.

let me ask you two questions, 1. how much damage do you think an eyebeam could do? compared to other bursty aoe classes like Arms/subtly rogue or even ret pally?
2. and what if they're not stacked together? for instance, like the ones in M DI, or M Harjatan?

do i think it's better at aoe comparing to tier20? yes, but do i think it's gonna bring dh in line with other good melee classes? NO

1-my eyebeam doing 1m dmg with %20 mastery atm. and when i go mastery build that i use with demonic in m+ (%46 mastery but %40 crit) its 1.2m. it will have a %30 dmg buff. so we can say itll hit like 1.5m with some shitty gear. and these numbers are without anguish. my arms warriors ravager hits like 4.5-5m to the target with CS. dont know about sub rogues. arms will lose that damage with t21. they will probably wont play ravager and go with opportunity strikes but i dont know for sure im not researching about arms for some time. if adds are not stacked thats still a problem for both arms and sub rogues probably for most melee classes except for ret pallies as divine storms range is like 20 yards or so. if u are tanking a m+ with an arms warrior and move the trash out of his ravager that will be a big cry. and arms is losing bladestorm/ravager cd reduction thats coming through T20 so ravager cd will be 1 minute bladestorm 1.5 minutes compared to max 40 sec cd of eye beam (with raddons and on single target. but an arms warrior wont use BS/RVG on single target) thats pretty long. so in the end if we are talking about just eye beam yes it wont hit like bladestorm/ravager but it will be a more shorter cd burst with a great single target burst window after it. the thing is T21 is not buffing eyebeam alone its buffing the demonic window like %40. thats pretty much a big buff. and with raddons lets say if there will be a 5 adds window in 15 seconds and u keep your eyebeam for that window its not a dps loss as u will have your lost time back through raddons.

and if u are canceling eyebeam because of fury capping u are playing demonic wrong as u need to eye beam after u use your all fury and get just enough fury for eyebeam not more and as someone mentioned above with T21 u need to cast it till the end. looking for DA procs, stacking souls and gathering them, using eyebeam on right time etc. thats pretty much funnier than current "use all your cooldowns, spam, hope u will crit" build.

[Deleted]

So, how did we get that much DPS? I get that we have a high meta uptime from essentially having BL every Eyebeams, but that much gained? Seems unrealistic.

The stuff chosen is op and 960.

[Measure]

Inb4 they nerf us too hard since we're supposedly one of the top performing specs and we go back to the bottom of the barrel again.

[rootbeerboy]

The stuff chosen is op and 960.

The gear in the sim strictly comes from raids so it's not even the best optimization possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Inb4 they nerf us too hard since we're supposedly one of the top performing specs and we go back to the bottom of the barrel again.

Dh was never bottom of the barrel.

[RobertoCarlos]

Inb4 they nerf us too hard since we're supposedly one of the top performing specs and we go back to the bottom of the barrel again.

I think you are confusing Havoc with outlaw and demonology specs

[rootbeerboy]

Given they said they would do most of the balancing AFTER Antorus is released I won't count on anything just yet.

They let arms warriors have an overpowered tier bonus the whole tier 20. Just nerfed their legendary ring. Dh should be fine.

[Shirofune]

The highest potential sim is 2.9mil the medium is the medium

Considering DA is RNG as hell, welp, there's your answer.

- - - Updated - - -

4.5sec* or less on ST,because sometimes you want to cancel that full channel eyebeam if your fury is going to be overflowed. besides to min/max that 4tier21 set bonus you wanna use eyebeam on cd for the nice haste proc, but then it contradicts the fact you need to save it for the adds to come out, so often time you will face a dilemma where if you hold on you lose some dps due to 4 set bonus, if you don't you can't use it for aoe.

let me ask you two questions, 1. how much damage do you think an eyebeam could do? compared to other bursty aoe classes like Arms/subtly rogue or even ret pally?
2. and what if they're not stacked together? for instance, like the ones in M DI, or M Harjatan?

do i think it's better at aoe comparing to tier20? yes, but do i think it's gonna bring dh in line with other good melee classes? NO

You're wrong here sir. You won't cancel your Eye Beams in T21. If you do, you won't get the juicy 40% haste.

I agree, though. Havoc's AoE burst potential is nowhere close to current Arms/Sub Rogues. Come T21... we might be able to pull better numbers in AoE due to Raddons + T21 (30% EB damage + Mastery stacking).

- - - Updated - - -

Dh was never bottom of the barrel.

I mean, we were in progression for a lot of bosses :P

[Hashcrypt]

Damn I just noticed that the T21 sim has Chaos Cleave instead of FB, which kind of sucks imo. Blade dance is a really cool ability and I'd hate to lose it from the ST rotation. I wonder how big of a difference it is? If it's a small dps difference then I'll just continue using FB.

[Shirofune]

Damn I just noticed that the T21 sim has Chaos Cleave instead of FB, which kind of sucks imo. Blade dance is a really cool ability and I'd hate to lose it from the ST rotation. I wonder how big of a difference it is? If it's a small dps difference then I'll just continue using FB.

3-4% afaik.

[chooi]

That pre-balancing sim sheet is a useless piece of information for progression and realistic scenarios and without any interpretation. As before every new raid patch. I dont understand why people still go crazy about those sheets. Wait until balancing has happened and remember that best patchwerk sim spec is not necessarily best progression spec. Or does someone truly believe that e.g. Rogues gonna be useless? Exactly. Probably not...

[rootbeerboy]

That pre-balancing sim sheet is a useless piece of information for progression and realistic scenarios and without any interpretation. As before every new raid patch. I dont understand why people still go crazy about those sheets. Wait until balancing has happened and remember that best patchwerk sim spec is not necessarily best progression spec. Or does someone truly believe that e.g. Rogues gonna be useless? Exactly. Probably not...

Dh will be fine for progression. DH was more than fine for any progression you and I have been apart of aswell. Maybe not the best class to bring if your top 10 guilds. But dh is fine. Rogues scale poorly.. And their utility probably won't be needed much in antorus. Not sure if they can abuse shuriken combo much either.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, we were in progression for a lot of bosses :P

DH was fine for progression outside of top 10 guilds. You can kill bosses with a dh in.

[chooi]

Dh will be fine for progression. DH was more than fine for any progression you and I have been apart of aswell. Maybe not the best class to bring if your top 10 guilds. But dh is fine. Rogues scale poorly.. And their utility probably won't be needed much in antorus. Not sure if they can abuse shuriken combo much either.

I didn't say DH won't be viable. Probably. But we don't know yet. My point simply was that people shouldn't go crazy about those sim sheets because it will change anyway. Rather look at the encounters and check what classes/specs got the best toolkit and available gear for those situations. Remember e.g. HFC where MM Hunter was somewhere in the middle of the sheet IIRC but were by far one of the best progression specs thanks to T18 4pc and their general toolkit.

[Shirofune]

That pre-balancing sim sheet is a useless piece of information for progression and realistic scenarios and without any interpretation. As before every new raid patch. I dont understand why people still go crazy about those sheets. Wait until balancing has happened and remember that best patchwerk sim spec is not necessarily best progression spec. Or does someone truly believe that e.g. Rogues gonna be useless? Exactly. Probably not...

Sims are pure ST simulations, with no mechanics involved.

Everyone that knows how to read a simulation knows that.

Sims show the potential of classes in that scenario.

You're right on one thing, the festival we had in ToS with Balance Druids didn't show up in simulations, but that's Blizzard to blame for adding adds onto everything.

- - - Updated - - -

Dh will be fine for progression. DH was more than fine for any progression you and I have been apart of aswell. Maybe not the best class to bring if your top 10 guilds. But dh is fine. Rogues scale poorly.. And their utility probably won't be needed much in antorus. Not sure if they can abuse shuriken combo much either.

- - - Updated - - -



DH was fine for progression outside of top 10 guilds. You can kill bosses with a dh in.

I mean, I'm 9/9 Mythic as a DH and, given the choice, I wouldn't have brought a DH into raids. Their target switch is still subpar and their AoE is abysmal. Sure, their ST burst is very good, but then again, do you really need that for some boss?

Also, I'm a pretty high parser and in some bosses I just cry seeing I did the same damage as an Arms Warrior that parsed 67 while parsing 96. That just legit makes me sad.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't say DH won't be viable. Probably. But we don't know yet. My point simply was that people shouldn't go crazy about those sim sheets because it will change anyway. Rather look at the encounters and check what classes/specs got the best toolkit and available gear for those situations. Remember e.g. HFC where MM Hunter was somewhere in the middle of the sheet IIRC but were by far one of the best progression specs thanks to T18 4pc and their general toolkit.

Hunters were taken for HFC for the same reason Hunters were taken onto everything for progression. Cheesing mechanics.

Source: me in HFC.

[chooi]

Sims are pure ST simulations, with no mechanics involved.

Everyone that knows how to read a simulation knows that.

Sims show the potential of classes in that scenario.


Hunters were taken for HFC for the same reason Hunters were taken onto everything for progression. Cheesing mechanics.

Source: me in HFC.

Most people apparently don't as threads like these show before each new raid release.

Cheesing mechanics was one major reason to take Hunters in HFC, sure. Strong DPS, instant Aimed
Shots, free Cleave, easy target switching, add duty - all that while being ranged and highly mobile - were the other resons you forgot to mention.

Source: me in HFC.

[Realmerc]

eye beam doesn't scale well in fact none of DH's AOE abilities scale well and you should know that if you've been playing from the beginning of the expansion.

yes, of course you don't wanna waste eye beam but what i meant was not cast eye beam>immediately cancel. but rather you cast eye beam at maybe 50~70 fury and then when you're getting close to max fury you cancel the last 0.3~0.5 channeling to min/max your dps is what i am talking about.

[Deleted]

eye beam doesn't scale well in fact none of DH's AOE abilities scale well and you should know that if you've been playing from the beginning of the expansion.

yes, of course you don't wanna waste eye beam but what i meant was not cast eye beam>immediately cancel. but rather you cast eye beam at maybe 50~70 fury and then when you're getting close to max fury you cancel the last 0.3~0.5 channeling to min/max your dps is what i am talking about.

That's still wrong. You're not gaining any dps when you cancel EB, it is DPS neutral compared to CS.
Not that it matters since in 2 weeks you'll never cancel EB again for a year or so.

[Deleted]

eye beam doesn't scale well in fact none of DH's AOE abilities scale well and you should know that if you've been playing from the beginning of the expansion.

yes, of course you don't wanna waste eye beam but what i meant was not cast eye beam>immediately cancel. but rather you cast eye beam at maybe 50~70 fury and then when you're getting close to max fury you cancel the last 0.3~0.5 channeling to min/max your dps is what i am talking about.

Congrats ! You're full wrong. With T21, you should not cancel eye beam cast + don't cast eye beam at 70 fury because you will waste fury generation thanks to the talent blind fury.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

The more sims they do, the lower DHs drop. Started as #1, down to 5th.