''WoW Classic won't be moving away from the community and inconveniences''

[Polybius]

@Tier539



So immersive

[taliey]

The civil war was the dumbest thing to have happened since the announcement.

[Azerate]

So this will surely stop all the idiots suggesting 'quality of life' improvements?

Just a pipe dream

[jackofwind]

I am positive it is possible. Feasible, I admit, may be another story. At any rate, I hope you do not expect me to hit you with spreadsheets on how I imagine all that.

I'm not expecting spreadsheets, but surely you can see that you're meeting a good amount of explanation backed up with specific information and examples with a simple "But I believe that it can be done."

I'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong, though I do disagree with you, but you're not making a particularly strong case for your opinion when you won't back it up. I believe that you have ideas, and I'd like you to present them to us so we can talk about them. Otherwise there's really no more discussion to be had.

[Slashnox]

"We know Vanilla means Vanilla"

I'm already throwing money at the screen, pls Blizzard, give it already!

But in all seriousness this is great news! They're not gonna cater to the huge numbers of retail players who would like to see it changed to make it more appealing.

[Hctaz]

Sure as long as hybrids are only 10-20% above pures in utility. That will need to be adjusted down to compensate.

That's fine as well. I would totally be down for that. You spec into DPS as a druid then your damage will never be as good as a rogue, but you will be able to toss out small heals now and again. If you spec resto, then you have all the utility and healing but very little damage (it really isn't worth it to do damage at all anyway as resto). That's exactly the trade off I wanted in rebalancing. Make it so that you can choose pure damage classes (rogue) or you can choose 80% damage with 20% utility (feral/ret/enhance). Neither one is necessarily right to fill your raid with. You're going to need some pure damage and you might want to have people who are a little more flexible than others.

I just don't want it to be like "Lol enhance/ret/feral... go spec healer you idiot."

[barrsftw]

1. Hybrids in Vanilla had really powerful utility both in and outside of raids, so if they balanced their numbers to be competitive with pure DPS they would be seriously overpowered in the long haul. In Vanilla most of the utility spells are baked into the class, not the spec (not just healing specs get the utility abilities). This utility would have to be reduced to make Hybrid DPS specs reasonable, which then pushes the game towards being like Live where everyone has a bit of everything and they all feel the same.

2. Some classes weren't viable for reasons other than numbers - hybrids usually had high mana costs on their damaging abilities which led them to run oom in specs like Shadow or Elemental. However, mana management is a key part of every caster class in Vanilla and reducing costs throws the balance of mana use and length of raid encounters entirely out of whack, which means that raid encounters would likely need to be re-tuned.

3. It wasn't just about numbers and abilities - tier sets were for one role only per class, and hybrid sets were all for healing. That means more sets would need to be created, which pushed the game away from Classic again. Further to that, many of the issues hybrids had revolved around gear availability and itemisation, which means that more items would need to be added across the board to make them viable. Revamping the loot tables in Classic is a huge move away from the original iteration of the game.

TL;DR: Class balancing in Vanilla is one thread in a complex net. It's tied to available gear, to basic stat functions like in-combat mana regen and spellpower vs AP (having to gear Hybrid melee classes with caster gear), to innate boss resistances (Nature resist guts Elemental's viability through AQ), to tier sets being role-specific for classes, to numerous other things. It's not something you can just "balance" without completely revamping the landscape of Classic.

Pretty much this. If you balance the "undertuned" classes, you have to change so many things. This post doesn't even touch on the PvP implications, which are possibly an even bigger factor than any of the above.

[Deleted]

No but he's saying that the community aspect and the inconveniences will stay intact and that's very important. It means no LFD, no LFR, no flying, no meeting stone summons, mount at lvl40, gold being a commodity and things like that.
Could it mean modern addon API, macro system, graphics, UI, models and animations? Sure. Could it mean class balance? It might, I doubt they'd do anything major though, a few number tweaks at most.

What's important to take away from this is that the most important parts of Classic are 100% intact.

Ngl, I really cannot see how people (seemingly you included) regard the likes of LFD etc as being something that simply CANNOT be a part of wow Classic (I agree, btw) but you're totally open to the discussion on models and animations?

For me personally, if Classic launched with new animations and models it couldn't be further away from being classic, because everywhere you'd bloody look would scream "not classic".

I know what I've said sound pretty silly maybe and I've worded it badly, but yeh.

[Flarelaine]

I'm not expecting spreadsheets, but surely you can see that you're meeting a good amount of explanation backed up with specific information and examples with a simple "But I believe that it can be done."

I'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong, though I do disagree with you, but you're not making a particularly strong case for your opinion when you won't back it up. I believe that you have ideas, and I'd like you to present them to us so we can talk about them. Otherwise there's really no more discussion to be had.

I fear that going back to an unchanged Vanilla with a 2017 min-maxing mindset would result in raids restricted to 4 classes.

I do not want that.

Back than it did not happen because firstly exploring the game and secondly exchanging information were not so fast as today. There was Thottbot alright, but there was no info-gathering addon, people had to add their observations the old-fashioned way. And by the time there was enough information, most of us were stuck with a class, so many guilds made do with what they had.

But now we know how the balance worked back then and people expecting to raid would have their choices constrained by viability already upon launch. I would love to see more freedom, more variety in creating raids. I wish Blizzard changed the numbers, not so much for closing the gap, but to force us to explore and experiment and discover again. Because that was also part of the Vanilla experience.

[Slashnox]

Basically the only changes that now are up for discussion are those that happened within Vanilla, between 2004-2006 or patch 1.0 to 1.12

Fuck yes

[maomoa]

Spells having reagent costs.

Training costs on spells.

No dual spec, and high cost for respec.

Having to sit and drink between mobs.

Hunters having to use ammo and feed pets.

Soul shards taking up slots in your bag, and not stacking.

Potions and elixirs only stacking to 5.

Very few AoE heals in game, and all of them except Chain Heal are restricted to your group, not raid-wide.

etc.

https://i.imgur.com/Scl5rwX.gifv

[Taeldorian]

Very happy to hear this.

So, it’s pretty clear everyone but the hardcore vanilla players will quit. Guess we’ll see about 1 million consistent subs for the vanilla servers after everything settles. That’s really good, means the community will be tight.

[maomoa]

I fear that going back to an unchanged Vanilla with a 2017 min-maxing mindset would result in raids restricted to 4 classes.

I do not want that.

Back than it did not happen because firstly exploring the game and secondly exchanging information were not so fast as today. There was Thottbot alright, but there was no info-gathering addon, people had to add their observations the old-fashioned way. And by the time there was enough information, most of us were stuck with a class, so many guilds made do with what they had.

But now we know how the balance worked back then and people expecting to raid would have their choices constrained by viability already upon launch. I would love to see more freedom, more variety in creating raids. I wish Blizzard changed the numbers, not so much for closing the gap, but to force us to explore and experiment and discover again. Because that was also part of the Vanilla experience.

I think you're not going to see this kind of extreme. 40 players gives you a lot of wriggle room. Yes, if you want to kill bosses in half the time, then maybe, but even characters that weren't that viable will still be played because everyone will know how to raid and play their class far more than in the past.

[God Save The King]

I sighed when I heard this, such a meaningless fluff response. Of course they won't move away from either of those, they are intricate to the classic experience.

[xcitng]

''WoW Classic won't be moving away from the community and inconveniences''

Are better graphics moving away from the community and inconveniences? No
Are more balanced specs moving away from the community and inconveniences? No, class balance isn't a QoL convenience change.

go away with class balance god damn

[Thimagryn]

How you propose hybrid classes be limited in their power without reworking them, bearing in mind that the vast majority of utility spells in the game are class-specific (not spec-specific), and they already are extremely strong in the right circumstances? Elemental/Enhancement Shamans, Shadow Priests, Feral Druids and Ret Paladins are all extremely strong in open world situations and PvP as it stands, without any balancing. If you increase their DPS, even if it's still below that of pure DPS classes, do you suggest their utility be reduced to coincide with their increased output? Hybrid utility is extremely strong in Vanilla, while pure DPS classes brought next to none (essentially just CC).

If you're looking for a working model for viable specs for hybrids, TBC is a good start. That's a talking point that reflects some of the changes hybrids would look forward to. By no means do they replace pures, nor do they necessarily compete in the same role. Warriors and Pures are still highly regarded as raid-necessary.

How that works in Vanilla? I'm not sure, since TBC and Vanilla are still very different systems. AFAIK (or remember), Vanilla was more flexible so that min-maxing wasn't as important for beating the content. If the idea of having Support roles is intentional design, then why not make the Hybrid DPS specs allow for that flexibility? Add a talent that procs buff re-application for Ret or something. I'm not a designer, but I imagine there are always potential workarounds for any system. I mean TBC's Feral changes were quite extensive, but it essentially boiled down to number tweaks, a better party Crit buff and decent itemization to allow them to perform their role. Point is - TBC showed us that hybrids playing their role without removing Hybrid tax still worked.

[Soon-TM]

Translation: WoW:Classic wont have LFG and LFR

Well, it's a beginning. A promisory one

[jackofwind]

If you're looking for a working model for viable specs for hybrids, TBC is a good start. That's a talking point that reflects some of the changes hybrids would look forward to. By no means do they replace pures, nor do they necessarily compete in the same role. Warriors and Pures are still highly regarded as raid-necessary.

How that works in Vanilla? I'm not sure, since TBC and Vanilla are still very different systems. AFAIK (or remember), Vanilla was more flexible so that min-maxing wasn't as important for beating the content. If the idea of having Support roles is intentional design, then why not make the Hybrid DPS specs allow for that flexibility? Add a talent that procs buff re-application for Ret or something. I'm not a designer, but I imagine there are always potential workarounds for any system. I mean TBC's Feral changes were quite extensive, but it essentially boiled down to number tweaks, a better party Crit buff and decent itemization to allow them to perform their role. Point is - TBC showed us that hybrids playing their role without removing Hybrid tax still worked.

I think the major component of your suggestion is something you mention yourself - TBC and Vanilla are very different systems. I don't think it's possible to change the Vanilla system, given how extensive the changes that have been explained pretty thoroughly in this thread already would need to be re: itemisation, stat function, available gear, utility balance, etc., without completely changing the feeling of Vanilla class balance.

At the end of the day that balance, for better or worse, is intrinsically tied to the Vanilla experience. It's certainly not something everyone likes, and it may very well be a shock for newcomers, but it's both a major component of the game state at that time and incapable of being changed without those changes affecting nearly everything else in the game.

[Deleted]

I fear that going back to an unchanged Vanilla with a 2017 min-maxing mindset would result in raids restricted to 4 classes.

I do not want that.

Back than it did not happen because firstly exploring the game and secondly exchanging information were not so fast as today. There was Thottbot alright, but there was no info-gathering addon, people had to add their observations the old-fashioned way. And by the time there was enough information, most of us were stuck with a class, so many guilds made do with what they had.

But now we know how the balance worked back then and people expecting to raid would have their choices constrained by viability already upon launch. I would love to see more freedom, more variety in creating raids. I wish Blizzard changed the numbers, not so much for closing the gap, but to force us to explore and experiment and discover again. Because that was also part of the Vanilla experience.

Correct and in Vanilla many people rolled hybrid classes expecting to be able to play a number of roles viably in end-game. Then they got pigeon-holed into healing, then their guild's relied on them, then they became unhappy but it was too late to re-roll.

[Flarelaine]

Correct and in Vanilla many people rolled hybrid classes expecting to be able to play a number of roles viably in end-game. Then they got pigeon-holed into healing, then their guild's relied on them, then they became unhappy but it was too late to re-roll.

I know, right? I healed through TBC as a paladin because my guild leader got stuck in Vanilla mode.

(OK, as a Horde player, I really only rolled a paladin in TBC... but I was expecting more options.)