Please tell me that Vanilla bosses are not designed like Green Dragons

[Nitros14]

but your going to be completely clueless your not going even have a remote idea of what is happening in these encounters, remember not everyone is married to this game and spends every waking hour playing it. some ppl might play for a few hours a week, they haven't got time to learn a character from watching videos and hope a guild will take them on with no previous experience.

at the end of the day the lfr supplies the game with a steady flow of new raiders, like it or not the ppl you recruit today have usually at least run the LFR so they have some sort of an inkling as to what is going to happen in the fights. they also have some sort of baseline gear where you don't have to go back to an old raid you finished running months ago just to gear up the new guy.

The raiding population was largest during WOTLK, when LFR hadn't even been conceived of and 10-mans were still inferior to 25-mans.

Shrug.

[Heathy]

The raiding population was largest during WOTLK, when LFR hadn't even been conceived of and 10-mans were still inferior to 25-mans.

Shrug.

pugging was still off the scale during wrath, just everyone throwing all their alts at as many raids as they could, i myself had various alts at various tiers during wrath. i think my pala was t9 my priest was t10, my rogue and shaman were t7-8. the double lock out era was amazing for pugs.

if the LFR existed then i would have totally taken my alts through it. but in the end ppl thought naxx was like lfr difficulty in the end when everyone knew the mechanics it was pugged as if it was lfr difficulty.

just ignore the lfr if it gets to you that much, it being in the game has no negative impact to the game itself or your game play other than what ppl are inflicting on their own egos 'bah these scrubs don't deserve epics' is exactly the elitist mentality that doesn't really belong in a game like this its not meant to be an insurmountable task or time sink to get a foot in the door.

hell there are ppl who only have time to LFR and simply cannot commit to any raid schedule because of their work or responsibilities. do they not get to experience even the easy modes because 'mah epux'. its just childish really.

i'm really not trying to be hostile either, i just think ppl need to take a step back from shitting on the LFR and at least acknowledge the fact that it has kept the raiding scene somewhat booming. it does help ppl gear up to start raiding properly, it does help ppl who decide to change mains half way through an expansion, it does help you learn a new class or role in a raid setting without you risking the success of the run. its there as a stepping stone its not there to deliberately undermine anyone elses game play or progress.

[Dimmune]

Man the double Lockout was incredible. Being able to pug with the server made the community so close. I don't think cross-server even existed back then. On-topic, what was done in Vanilla was different. Raiding in vanilla is a completely different philosophy then it is today. Classes we're different too.

[taishar68]

@healthy: at the risk of furthering the hijack of this thread, I have to say that is a solid and eloquent defense of LFR. Personally, I feel like it doesn't do enough to teach about the risk of mechanics since so many can be ignored, but I agree that it is a good, live, training ground to learn how to play a class from a rotation standpoint, practice lining up cooldowns, etc.

[Deleted]

It's still better than soak, soak, soak, SOAK.

[Heathy]

Man the double Lockout was incredible. Being able to pug with the server made the community so close. I don't think cross-server even existed back then. On-topic, what was done in Vanilla was different. Raiding in vanilla is a completely different philosophy then it is today. Classes we're different too.

it really was, progress was definitely the idea but my guild at least didn't exactly push for progress or the word progress wasn't something on everyones minds, having fun probably was, i mostly just remember having fun being in a raid with 39 other ppl, that was kinda special at that time, everything else was just icing on the cake. I wasn't even that interested in gearing up asap, i was constantly passing on items to ppl who had something worst than me. i think i passed on the eye twice because i had a fang of venoxis and the book of the dead from strath while some of the other priests in my raid were sporting dungeon blue weapons.

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@healthy: at the risk of furthering the hijack of this thread, I have to say that is a solid and eloquent defense of LFR. Personally, I feel like it doesn't do enough to teach about the risk of mechanics since so many can be ignored, but I agree that it is a good, live, training ground to learn how to play a class from a rotation standpoint, practice lining up cooldowns, etc.

yes this is exactly it, the lfr might be a cake walk it might throw out welfare epics but it cuts down the time sink to getting into raiding with a new class substantially. in classic you just wouldn't have had the time to raid with alts unless you were in a top guild doing dedicated alt runs. alts were like all dungeon geared characters who never got to step foot in a raid, I think pugging in classic will be more frequent this time around but its still going to be a lot harder to raid with alts in classic than it is today simply because of the LFR.

i'm quite modest so i understand that the LFR devalues loot a bit its not hard to get baseline epic gear but lets face it the game has been throwing out epic gear now for over a decade, we've done the green>blue>purple dance like what 7 times now? the argument about epic gear being epic, it really started to lose that title toward the end of classic because even then it would have been very easy for ppl to get epic gear if they could just muster 20 ppl.

[Akka]

Those are ones of the shittiest boss designs in the game, it's just full stun and fear, full unavoidable aoe damage and full of "take-that-boss-in-the-corner" mechanics.

Vanilla bosses in MC and somewhat BWL are basically "tank'n'spank with a special gimmick". But the gimmick will destroy the raid if it's not dealt with. That's a bit the rebound version of current LFR (tons of abilities, which can be all but totally ignored). Don't expect MC to be anything but a ride in nostalgia lane though, even at the time it was a joke.

Even in later raids, the fights tended to have few mechanics with lots of impact - I actually DO prefer this design, rather than the long-as-an-arm list of things to check in more recent fights. What makes a fight hard in the end is the tuning anyway, and I prefer to have a strongly thematic fight with a few iconic mechanics that are significant, than a mess with tons of things to do that will only matter if you're in Mythic or if you miss several in a row.

Also, remember one very important thing : Vanilla is more about combat management than current WoW. Rotation are basically non-existent, but threat and personal resources are very much here. They don't do fireworks in the video, they are basically invisible if you aren't playing, but they were constantly there and added another layer to the fights, while they are absent from current WoW. "tank'n'spank" is basic, that's a given, but actually keeping the boss on the tank at the time was actually a mechanic in itself that required the whole raid to at least pay a modicum of attention.

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at the end of the day the lfr supplies the game with a steady flow of new raiders, like it or not the ppl you recruit today have usually at least run the LFR so they have some sort of an inkling as to what is going to happen in the fights. they also have some sort of baseline gear where you don't have to go back to an old raid you finished running months ago just to gear up the new guy.

Sorry, that's BS. None of our recruits were ever people who only did LFR. Most people doing LFR aren't interested in doing anything above.

it doesn't matter how boring or easy the LFR is for YOU, you don't have to run it, its how useful it is to the ppl who aren't you.

That's another huge layer of BS. LFR has a huge influence in the whole game design, and ignoring it doesn't change this impact. That's one of the reason people want to go back to Classic, where it didn't exist (same for multiple difficulty levels).

[Heathy]

Sorry, that's BS. None of our recruits were ever people who only did LFR. Most people doing LFR aren't interested in doing anything above.

That's another huge layer of BS. LFR has a huge influence in the whole game design, and ignoring it doesn't change this impact. That's one of the reason people want to go back to Classic, where it didn't exist (same for multiple difficulty levels).

right so because none of your recruits ran the lfr no one elses recruits did either, sound logic. its not 'only did the looking for raid', it s ppl who started off in the lfr, then decided they wanted to take the next step, join a guild and try normal/heroic, that is what the LFR is really for, its for players who have just started the game, they don't have 10 years mastering a class and spec, they need a way to catch up to the curve. that doesn't take half the expansion to achieve.

no your wrong other ppls progress has no effect on your game play or your personal progress, focus more on what you yourself are doing and less on what other ppl are doing, you'll live longer.

but enlighten me explain in detail how someone running the LFR affects your gameplay and progress negatively (already discussed the positive aspects of the LFR), ill wait. and don't write something that boils down to the lfr insulting your ego because thats just going to be funny more than anything.

I played during classic, i liked the game back then at that time when there was nothing better, personally i'm the sort of person that prefers seeing the game move forward not backward. i'm not the type to dwell on the past.

I do think the classic server is a great idea though, I remember arguing with you in the thread about it 'never going to happen' and i was pretty sure that it wouldn't, mainly because i didn't think blizzard either had the man power, or the balls to compete with themselves because, self competition is actually a thing. i just didn't think they would do it. but now that its happening i think its great for those who didn't get to see all the content, you'll be able to make a guild and progress at whatever pace you want without a new expansion cutting you short of reaching naxx like the original classic. that alone is great, if i had the time i would like to go through it and do the encounters that i didn't get to do but i'm probably not going to be able to do classic again its a bit too much of a time sink for me these days.

[deadman1]

For the most part yeah but, most real raid bosses were a bit less intense mechanics wise that the anniversary rehashes.

[solarfallz]

The real green dragons were not like the 13th anniversary versions at all.

[epLe]

The real green dragons were not like the 13th anniversary versions at all.

This.

Lethon was insane, like 8 guilds iirc or so killed the original version, his shadowbolt volleys was like ouro on roids.
Taerar was abit easier but still quite hard..
Emeriss was easier than the 2 dark ones, but not as easy as Ysondre (which was the one some killed with smaller groups later)

They all debuffed you for 15m (mark of nature) or so if you died.
Incapacitating you from corpserunning and combat ressing (which was a huge thing earlier in vanilla).

[potis]

This.

Lethon was insane, like 8 guilds iirc or so killed the original version, his shadowbolt volleys was like ouro on roids.
Taerar was abit easier but still quite hard..
Emeriss was easier than the 2 dark ones, but not as easy as Ysondre (which was the one some killed with smaller groups later)

They all debuffed you for 15m (mark of nature) or so if you died.
Incapacitating you from corpserunning and combat ressing (which was a huge thing earlier in vanilla).

That was only when they first got implemented, it wasnt very hard to "Yo, turn him when he casts first bolt bro, then turn again at second bolt, repeat till we kill".

Green Dragons were a joke after you learnt the basics, obviously when it was a 1 dragon/server per week?(or was it 3 days, was that later? I dont remember) not many did, but it doesnt mean they were "hard".

I still remember the 1 day i got the flu and couldnt attend University and stayed home on a Wednesday reset (Never had before cause of uni) and we literally 3 manned azuregos to 50% before the rest starting logging on slowly only to 15 man the Green dragons in the next hour (I think this was in the period of almost Full AQ clear gear and Naxx about to release, so a mix of full BWL/Lots of AQ items so yes they could be "hard" in blues and MC gear)

[Akka]

right so because none of your recruits ran the lfr no one elses recruits did either, sound logic.

No. You claim that LFR is the source of fresh new raiders, the fact is that most LFR people aren't interested in trying the next difficulty level. That you had some doesn't change this.

no your wrong other ppls progress has no effect on your game play or your personal progress, focus more on what you yourself are doing and less on what other ppl are doing, you'll live longer.

It's pretty much impossible to genuinely not realize that LFR has an enormous impact on the entire game. Be serious.

I remember arguing with you in the thread about it 'never going to happen' and i was pretty sure that it wouldn't, mainly because i didn't think blizzard either had the man power, or the balls to compete with themselves because, self competition is actually a thing. i just didn't think they would do it.

You were wrong against me once, use this newfound wisdom to not do this again

[Heathy]

No. You claim that LFR is the source of fresh new raiders, the fact is that most LFR people aren't interested in trying the next difficulty level. That you had some doesn't change this.

You're pretty short-sighted and not very smart if you can't manage to see the obvious influence on the whole game design that such a thing causes. In fact, it's so impossible to not notice that it requires active denial.

its a source of new fresh raiders because ppl try the lfr then decide to move up into normal or heroic, or if they think they are good enough its totally possible to jump right into normal for ppl of moderate skill.

but the LFR is aimed at those who don't have years of skill playing a class, or ppl who have never raided before.

i just don't think loot is the be all end all in this game and i don't really make it my focus or priority, other ppl getting loot doesn't phase me in the slightest, some absolute noob lord can get a titanforge ilvl980 from the lfr and it doesn't bother me in the slightest because it doesn't effect me at all. its all in your mind.

the gearing up aspect of this game i just allow to happen at its own pace i don't care what loot i get i don't care when i get it, i just like having fun healing raids, thats why i play the game, loot is just the bonus for me.

[Akka]

I still remember the 1 day i got the flu and couldnt attend University and stayed home on a Wednesday reset (Never had before cause of uni) and we literally 3 manned azuregos to 50% before the rest starting logging on slowly only to 15 man the Green dragons in the next hour (I think this was in the period of almost Full AQ clear gear and Naxx about to release, so a mix of full BWL/Lots of AQ items so yes they could be "hard" in blues and MC gear)

The main difficulty of outdoor bosses was the other side trying to mess up your attempts
(between the "let's run naked at Kazaak" trolls or the "let's AoE people trying to fight a dragon)

[Heladys]

No. You claim that LFR is the source of fresh new raiders, the fact is that most LFR people aren't interested in trying the next difficulty level. That you had some doesn't change this.

And by contrast, the people sitting outside of organized raiding picking their asses - those *are* a source of fresh new raiders? Puh-lease.

[Akka]

other ppl getting loot doesn't phase me in the slightest, some absolute noob lord can get a titanforge ilvl980 from the lfr and it doesn't bother me in the slightest because it doesn't effect me at all. its all in your mind.

Game design is not about how you feel about some noob getting gear. Get some perspective and look at the whole.

[Heathy]

Game design is not about how you feel about some noob getting gear. Get some perspective and look at the whole.

what game design, your not elaborating.

the game design has been the same since the beginning, get ppl into a raid, go to instance, kill boss, get loot, kill next boss, get more loot, repeat each week till burnout. the game design.

delusions of grandeur i think is what is going on here. pretty much sums up the entire sub forum tbf.

[Akka]

And by contrast, the people sitting outside of organized raiding picking their asses - those *are* a source of fresh new raiders? Puh-lease.

Source of new raiders are the people who don't linger in LFR. They look for raiding guilds. By definition. If LFR was absent, they would still look for raiding guilds.
LFR, on the contrary, might make people less interested in raids, as they try it and think "raids are fucking boring" if they are new and don't know better.

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what game design, your not elaborating.

the game design has been the same since the beginning, get ppl into a raid, go to instance, kill boss, get loot, kill next boss, get more loot, repeat each week till burnout. the game design.

I guess you're just not cut out to understand the very concept of design.

[Heathy]

Game design is not about how you feel about some noob getting gear. Get some perspective and look at the whole.

just not cut out to understand you dodging the question.

you didn't tell me how the LFR negatively affects your game play or progress in the game.

now your just beating around the bush throwing out buzz words like game design. ok so the game design, yes what about the game design, again are you going to elaborate or was that rhetorical?.

the game is designed around largely, end game raiding, the lfr, helps complete noobs get into end game raiding. seems to be a pretty functional and positive aspect to this 'game design' that your talking about.