So Sylvanas is an usurper to the Horde?

[Aquamonkey]

So I think at this time, under Vol'jin, and especially throughout the events of this next expansion set, the Horde is thinking a lot about "What are we about? Who are we?" There's a troll as a Warchief for the first time. I love that. Almost love the idea—it'd be very difficult in gameplay, just too gnarly to do—every couple of years someone else gets a shot. Imagine a blood elf as Warchief. I'd love that. (Source)

[Syegfryed]

The definition "only Orcs can be Warchief", only exist in your head.

not only orcs, is fine with orc taurens and trolls, should one of those races, a forsaken not likely, a undead high elf definitely no

[Skytotem]

Honestly I just want Thrall to re-assume mantle of Warchief. The Horde just doesn't seem to be capable of functioning properly without Thrall being on the mantle. Even leading the Horde forces on Draenor he felt more like a Warchief than Vol'jin did.

He should take back the Doomhammer (or takes another hammer like Sulfuras), get rid of the robes and necklace and take his ass back to Orgrimmar.

Horde wasn't doing all that great with Thrall at the lead either, given the tensions with Ashenvale he's never addressed, and the dropped warlock plotline.

[Syegfryed]

So I think at this time, under Vol'jin, and especially throughout the events of this next expansion set, the Horde is thinking a lot about "What are we about? Who are we?" There's a troll as a Warchief for the first time. I love that. Almost love the idea—it'd be very difficult in gameplay, just too gnarly to do—every couple of years someone else gets a shot. Imagine a blood elf as Warchief. I'd love that. (Source)

i was rly looking for this blue pot, thanks, show how they know exactly what they are doing when fucking the horde up, its was not a accident

waiting Gally warchief Soom Tm

[Techno-Druid]

Horde wasn't doing all that great with Thrall at the lead either, given the tensions with Ashenvale he's never addressed, and the dropped warlock plotline.

He wasn't the best leader, but was he better than most Warchiefs in the history of the Horde? Blackhand? Yes. Orgrim? Yes. Garrosh. Yes. Vol'jin. We don't know since he practically did nothing. Sylvanas? Yes.

[Mehrunes]

as far as i know is a person without any formal or legal right to claim the tittle it as their own

Sylvanas has both. And the power was given to her, not taken by her.

The duties go both ways. If a subjects have the duties to obey the warchief, warchief would also have the duties to protect his/her subject.

Nothing in the Blood Oath mentions the Warchief's obligations towards their subjects.

is supposed to mean a satire? cause one thing is the warchief do things for the horde, other thing i for selfish desires

The Oath says nothing about what the Warchief has to do for the Horde. And which part of "Warchief's desires" excludes selfish ones?

thats the whole reason we put garry down

The reason we put Garrosh down was him turning on the Horde and trying to kill anything that wasn't a part of his Orc Reich.

an undead high elf is not a legit rule of the horde

She was appointed by the previous Warchief. An appointment that was accepted by the Horde, with her receiving the oath. She has all the legitimacy the Horde requires.

So, other than her protection, why exactly Sylvana is creating new forsakens? As far as we know undead character after succumb to, lets call it, final death, goes into a place of eternal torment. So, Sylvana, even if she give a choice for new undead characters is still condeming them to hell. It is evil thing, because she has first hand experience what would they endure. So, in her mind, you have 3 options - join her minions, die (eternal torment) or go away in your new state, potentially also eternal torment. Even IF she would do everything in her power to protect those undead who serve her, she condems them to eternal torment sooner or later. And she knows it.
But sure, she is "grey" because she give you a choice.

Except the idea that undeath leads to eternal torment is unsupported speculation. We've seen undead that went into the Light once killed.

Unlike the oath of joining the horde. There is no "horde constitution" so you have to speculate and apply common sense.

The Blood Oath has been stated to be the most fundamental law of the Horde. As such it serves the function of a rudimentary constitution.

Again, please have minimal amount of common sense, otherwise we can not discuss anything since Blizzard never bother to creates a law code for Horde.

You said "Assassinations carried out from a legitimate authority are simply executions". However, you also failed to realize that, "Assassinations against own people without proper legal sanction is also outright tyranny." Being a leader does not mean everything you does is legal. If Garrosh arrested Vol'jin and gave him a trial, and killed him, it was at least legal in form. Or he could order a in-field execution for disobeying military order, which was at least legal from a martial law perspective. But he chosen the most shady manner, a dagger in the back, and intended to frame it as an accident. It only shown that Garrosh himself also thought it was illegal.

Good thing then that the Horde is essentially a militarily oriented form of authoritarianism. There's still no indication of a Warchief having any limits as to what they can do. And killing Traitor'jin publicly would not only be more than what he deserved, it would also turn him into a martyr for the rest of his traitorous kind.

Vol'jin's word is offensive that is for sure. But again, his words are only threat without the backup of any action, which makes his action much less guilty in nature. And if you consider the culture of horde, it should not be a rare thing for people to use harsh words against others (including leaders).

Death threats are a criminal offense even today. If you take the culture of the Horde and the overall medieval-like setting, threatening one's sovereign with death should have ended with Beg'jin's head on a spike.

[Magnagarde]

Varimathras was obviously honest because he has nothing to lose anymore. He turned out to be right about everything. He was her right hand for years after all and was in on a lot of insider things. We don't know how the things in BfA came to unfold as they did, but it is pretty clear now that Sylvanas envisioned and actually planned something like this.

[Wildberry]

Unlike the oath of joining the horde. There is no "horde constitution" so you have to speculate and apply common sense.

So you don't have a citation, got it. And hey, if the duty went both ways, why didn't Baine leave the minute Orgrimmar refused to help the Thunder Bluff? You suggested Garrosh not carrying out his "speculative" duties justifies the rebellion, so why didn't Baine rebel or leave immediately after?

There are also other evidences in game that suggested the duties of horde to its member (which should define the duties of warchief as well), blood elves joined the Horde in exchange for help and protection is one good example.

That doesn't define the duties of the Warchief, though. There's no evidence from that to suggest such a thing. The Forsaken were trying to convince the Blood Elves to join, and provided aid. Other instances of support from the Horde proper, were conducted on the grounds of mutual interests.

You said "Assassinations carried out from a legitimate authority are simply executions". However, you also failed to realize that, "Assassinations against own people without proper legal sanction is also outright tyranny."

Is there anything to suggest that's a problem, or justifies rebellion? Is it really tyrannical to assassinate a known-dissident who has explicitly threatened his legitimate superior with assassination?

Being a leader does not mean everything you does is legal. If Garrosh arrested Vol'jin and gave him a trial, and killed him, it was at least legal in form.

There's no evidence to assume that Horde members are entitled to a trial. Common sense doesn't dictate that, either. Trials weren't guaranteed for the majority of human history.

Or he could order a in-field execution for disobeying military order, which was at least legal from a martial law perspective. But he chosen the most shady manner, a dagger in the back, and intended to frame it as an accident. It only shown that Garrosh himself also thought it was illegal.

Any citation on him intending to frame it as an accident? Perhaps Garrosh was simply trying to avoid stirring up even more Darkspear resentment. Trolls were, after all, a large chunk of the dissent leading up to that.

Cairne's action, despite of its violent intend, is legal and should not be considered as assault.

I never made a claim regarding it's legality, although I find it humorous that you're defending Cairne striking Garrosh. This was not during Mak'gora. Cairne was a moronic hothead and lost his temper. My only point was that this occurred before Garrosh turned against anyone.

Vol'jin's word is offensive that is for sure. But again, his words are only threat without the backup of any action, which makes his action much less guilty in nature. And if you consider the culture of horde, it should not be a rare thing for people to use harsh words against others (including leaders).

Threatening assassination and treason isn't simply a case of "harsh words." Vol'jin's statement also implied intent to carry out the action. Garrosh was, up until the aftermath of Theramore, under the impression that he could win Vol'jin to his side. You should use a little of that "Common Sense" you keep talking about.

Regardless, you claimed: "They went against Garrosh because Garrosh also went against them." That is objectively not true. This issue isn't debatable. You're wrong. And I've noticed that when you're wrong, all you do is try to move to a tangential topic, shift goalposts, or spin lore ("Harsh Words." Give me a break.)

Sylvanas also received similar warning from Baine and Saurfang (in a more polite manner) but the only thing she could do is just to remember their words.

Saurfang said to Sylvanas:

You are the leader of all the Horde-orcs, tauren, trolls, blood elves, goblins-as well as the Forsaken. You must never forget that, or else they might

Baine said:

Brave members of this Horde you lead fought and died to make sure the Legion did not destroy this world, as it had so many others

Conversely, here's the relevant part of the conversation between Vol'jin and Garrosh:

Vision of Vol'jin says: Ya be no Warchief of mine. Ya've not earned my respect and I'll not be seein' tha Horde destroyed by ya foolish thirst for war.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: And what exactly do you think that you'll do about it? Your threats are hollow. Go slink away with the rest of your kind in the slums. I will endure your filth in my throne room no longer.
Vision of Vol'jin says: I know exactly what I'll be doin' about it, son of Hellscream. I'll be watchin' as ya people slowly become aware of ya ineptitude. I'll laugh as dey grow ta despise ya as I do.
Vision of Vol'jin says: And when tha time comes dat ya failure is complete and ya "power" is meaningless, I will be dere to end ya rule, swiftly and silently.
Vision of Vol'jin says: Ya will spend ya reign glancin' over ya shoulda and fearin' tha shadows, for when tha time comes and ya blood be slowly drainin' out, ya will know exactly who fired da arrow dat pierced ya heart.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: You have sealed your fate, troll.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream spits at Vol'jin's feet.
Vision of Vol'jin says: And you yours, "Warchief".

Please don't even pretend that these are comparable.

[united]

y'all seriously trusting a dreadlord? lol

[Zulkhan]

I think it counts in the early days of Vol'jin and Baine's rabble-rousing. Assassination threats, secret meetings for dissenters, leveraging your loyalty to force change, etc.

They weren't kicked out until later.

Not saying all of this doesn't matter but it actually matters when it comes to the topic of the Blood Oath? Because the oath's premise is naively bland and clearly doesn't include the several nuances of reality.

Things like disrespect, perceived dishonesty by the individual Warchief or even threats are punishable to the singular discretion of the Warchief himself given his dictatorial power (aka one may be more forgiving, another not) but can the oath itself being objectively broken as long the subject, on the end of the day, still respond to the Warchief's orders and execute them by the letter?

The King who cared.
What an amazing character. Although they ruined him in the show, I still enjoyed him.

I hope the books will redeem him, even though it may pass...some time before we know.

the only reason she become warchief was the whining of how she is so master to fight the legion, even she did jack shit much like vol'jin. if the reason she was made leader is no more, the reason of her still be there is no more as well

What the players say matter jackshit. Vol'jin never hinted a direct reference to the Legion.

The Oath says nothing about what the Warchief has to do for the Horde. And which part of "Warchief's desires" excludes selfish ones?

The Oath ends by saying the subject would live and die for the Horde, not for the Warchief. The ultimate duty is to the Horde. Hence, the Warchief is ultimately obliged to value the interests of the Horde as a whole over his own. Anything not aligning with that should be, by all means, considered an abuse of power and effective corruption. Not for the way the subjects are used by for the ultimate reason as for why they are used a certain way.

The reason we put Garrosh down was him turning on the Horde and trying to kill anything that wasn't a part of his Orc Reich.

Garrosh being driven by his own selfish reasons and obsessions over the actual interests of the Horde have been pretty much the pivotal theme of his downfall.

Varimathras was obviously honest because he has nothing to lose anymore. He turned out to be right about everything.

Everything? He proved to know jackshit about the circumstances of Sylvanas' rise to power. His baseless slanders have been proved outright false by the novel's excerpt.

[sillag]

dude give me back garrosh instead of this sylvanas lunatic. what has she done in our fight against the legion except leave me out in stormheim to get the shield thing while she goes to steal a magic lamp. i mean tyrande was annoying but at least she was out there getting the tearstones with me. im not proud of sylvanas no matter how many effects you add to her voice when she says for the horde blizzard. i hope she dies and they pour voljins ashes onto the big chair in orgrimmar. give him another try. at least he was fighting the demons for a while

both of sylvanas's sisters are in our spaceship saving the world on behalf of the alliance and where is sylvanas at. she doesnt have an ounce of pride in her skeleton body. send her away blizzard

[Aydinx2]

Looks like lying demons have tendency to be absolutely honest. Thank you Varimathras, for spoiling the next expansion to us. He told Alliance that Sylv is planning to attack Stormwind - exactly what was happening. He also told Horde that "spirits" that whispered to dying Vol'jin were sent by her to play the whole trick. So aren't Horde going to commune with his spirit on Zandalar and go find out? What then? Impeachment? She lost her capital and continent, Horde's victory in Kalimdor is work of orcs, talking cows, trolls and goblins. What base she has to remain in charge? Looks like good old Thrall is back as warchief? At least he is well at main characters list. Wouldn't that be a great irony if he, in the end, will be killed by Jaina? Of all people...

Vol'Jin gave her the job, so regardless of him being tricked or not she is the Warchief legaly (assuming the Horde has a concept of legality).
Additionally, while she may have lost HER capital, the Horde's capital still stands, which is orgrimmar.

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dude give me back garrosh instead of this sylvanas lunatic. what has she done in our fight against the legion except leave me out in stormheim to get the shield thing while she goes to steal a magic lamp. i mean tyrande was annoying but at least she was out there getting the tearstones with me. im not proud of sylvanas no matter how many effects you add to her voice when she says for the horde blizzard. i hope she dies and they pour voljins ashes onto the big chair in orgrimmar. give him another try. at least he was fighting the demons for a while

both of sylvanas's sisters are in our spaceship saving the world on behalf of the alliance and where is sylvanas at. she doesnt have an ounce of pride in her skeleton body. send her away blizzard

How can you call Sylvanas a lunatic while asking for Garrosh to be back?
He committed genocide and let himself willingly be corrupted by an old god.

And Sylvanas DID help against the Legion. She had her Horde armies fight against the Legion on the broken isles and had to defend herself from Greymane, who instead of fighting the Legion just went after sylvanas.

Also: Sylvanas is not on the ship thanks to Greymane destroying any good relations the Horde and Alliance had. Notice how there are only Alliance/Neutral characters on the ship?

[sillag]

dude lets be real. garrosh would at least be out in the broken isles fighting the demons. and any warchief is going to send the horde to fight the demons on the broken isles thats not some great thing sylvanas did. thats the bare minimum its possible for her to have done. in fact the horde would probably have done it anyway even if there was no warchief.

and as far as i can see its good genn stopped her she was doing some shady stuff out there. if she had a good reason to go steal the magic valkyr lamp maybe she should have told me about it instead of running away on her own secret mission. im only the champion of the entire horde so its not like you cant trust me with it if its a good reason

look im just calling it like i see it in the game. sylvanas did nothing against the legion except go try to pull some self interest job and then get outwitted by the alliance's dumbest leader. she doesnt even show up for varimathras. thats not what being warchief is about you have to be out there trusting your horde and fighting with them.

hell put liadrin in the warchief chair i think she would get it better than sylvanas does

[mber341]

i was rly looking for this blue pot, thanks, show how they know exactly what they are doing when fucking the horde up, its was not a accident

waiting Gally warchief Soom Tm

Oh dear lord, that would be too funny. Its so ridiculous i now want that to happen! Make Kalimdor Great Again!!

[Magnagarde]

Everything? He proved to know jackshit about the circumstances of Sylvanas' rise to power. His baseless slanders have been proved outright false by the novel's excerpt.

The only thing not proven yet is wether the "whispers" were "doctored" by a force beside the ones we expect Vol'jin to hear from, but it was absolutely fishy from the get-go that the Loa would suggest to a troll to appoint an undead - one that has no restraints whatsoever - to the position of warchief. Betrayal within the Alliance already happened on ample opportunities since Varimathras failed in the Undercity.

The novel proves she is after Stormwind too, which goes hand-in-hand with the sentence about the broken mask above Alliance hearths. Teldrassil burning goes hand-in-hand with the sentence where he says that Alliance holy places will burn.

[owbu]

Yes. Death to the false queen. Thunder bluff will rise!

[Zulkhan]

The only thing not proven yet is wether the "whispers" were "doctored" by a force beside the ones we expect Vol'jin to hear from, but it was absolutely fishy from the get-go that the Loa would suggest to a troll to appoint an undead - one that has no restraints whatsoever - to the position of warchief.

There's really nothing to prove, at least when it comes to Varimathras' claims on this specific topic. Varimathras didn't know shit. He didn't know how Sylvanas claimed the throne to the point that after throwing a few guesses, he says "it doesn't matter". What he says with sufficient certainty is the statement saying "You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you" which is arguably the vaguest of all his claims.

Betrayal within the Alliance already happened on ample opportunities since Varimathras failed in the Undercity.

No, he talks about "thrones running red with betrayal". It's very specific.

[Zeraiya]

I want to ask a question that is very similar to the question you asked. Why did human want to pop up babies and continue their line?

They are not a real race that evolved naturally. They were the robot armies of Titans, and they were made to fight an enemy. They were not supposed to fight over lands with the "native" races of Azeroth. And there is even no "human", before the curse of the old god. And that curse is evil and painful. And the original titan forged really hates of being turned into flesh.

So why do they not just kill themself? or launched a crusade and die in glory? or just hide in some unknown place and die peacefully?

Why do they pop out babies like rabbits, and pass the curse generation to generation? Why do they keep expanding their territories, at the cost of the much "natural" native race such as Troll?

It is just the right for a sentimental race to seek way to prolong its existence, to expand its influence.

Human had done everything Sylvanas/forsaken is doing now.

Sure, but you're answering a question with another question that you're assuming the answer is obvious. I don't think the case of the ancient humans and the current Forsaken are the same thing. Namely, the Forsaken aren't a race of their own like the ancient humans were. The ancient humans were a race that was transforming, where as the Forsaken are still humans, elves, etc. that have been resurrected. Sure, they fall under a new banner but that is not because they are a new species, but because they would be rejected by their old races. It's similar to having a group of exiles. They are a new race not because of their unique species, but because they cannot go back to where they were because they are now dead.

Plus, I have never seen any indication from other Forsaken that they long to procreate and "continue" their species. This dialogue is almost completely Sylvanus, and her worrying about her people and their procreation. It just seems insane. I understand it on a sentimental level, but I don't think Sylvanus is sentimental. The Forsaken will never be able to procreate, not like ancient humans could. The most Sylvanus can do is raise a developed person from the dead. How is that procreation, more so than just exiling someone into your ranks.

And on top of that... why is she trying to actively kill people to force them into her ranks for 'procreation'. It's World of Warcraft, people are dying every day. Surely you can raise the already fallen from the dead if you so badly want people. Going out of your way to murder people is just... pointless. People die all the time. And by that logic, there will always be Forsaken, because someone will always die (and yes, you would have to go through special measures to make those dead into the Forsaken).

[Aliven]

[QUOTE=Ash123;48195832]

Also, while human origin story is that of curse and mutation it is still origin of a LIVING SPECIES.

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Sorry, human started as robot constructs of titan, they are not living species (unless u think the constructs are also qualified as living).

The only argument you can use against forsaken's right as a race is that they can not pop out babies.

However, this is a fantasy world, and races can prolong its existence by any means imaginable. It is not necessary that you have to do it biologically.

Nope. Vrykul started as a titan constructs, then they were cursed and looooong after that their babies mutated into a humans. So humans are natural born species, albeit from cursed ancestors.

Also - there are more about being living other than "pop" a baby. There is metabolism (undead have none), ability to evolve as a species, etc. Again, undead dont have any of this. Like rocks.

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Except the idea that undeath leads to eternal torment is unsupported speculation. We've seen undead that went into the Light once killed.

If you are reffering to that one crusader in the northrend then:
It was never undead per se as i recall, only afflicted and will turn if he died.
There was a direct intervention from Naaru.

On different spectrum we have undead creature (banshee) deing and we can read first hand what she experienced. So, you can argue that banshee are special but there is nothing to support that.
Even IF banshee are special little snowflakes then it doesnt change the fact that Sylvana believe this is true and still condemns other to the same fate.

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y'all seriously trusting a dreadlord? lol

No, we trust Blizzard megaphone.

[Minikin]

dude give me back garrosh instead of this sylvanas lunatic. what has she done in our fight against the legion except leave me out in stormheim to get the shield thing while she goes to steal a magic lamp. i mean tyrande was annoying but at least she was out there getting the tearstones with me. im not proud of sylvanas no matter how many effects you add to her voice when she says for the horde blizzard. i hope she dies and they pour voljins ashes onto the big chair in orgrimmar. give him another try. at least he was fighting the demons for a while


both of sylvanas's sisters are in our spaceship saving the world on behalf of the alliance and where is sylvanas at. she doesnt have an ounce of pride in her skeleton body. send her away blizzard

wow. you know that actually never crossed my mind but it is pretty true. but honestly besides Liandrin who from the horde is there? Velen is present. but i guess ill ive the benefit of doubt to his presence as him being the leader of the draenei and this being their fight (honestly though its crazy to think that without the alliance faction of the draenei the vindicaar wouldnt even be possible).

The horde seems either under represented or worse....absent.