Proposed change to tipping laws

[Deleted]

So the US department of Labour is proposing a change to the laws regarding tipping, and I always find laws from such departments interesting since they can have some rather damning or great effects on workers, benefits and salaries.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-insp...2017-25802.pdf

The summary of it:

The Department of Labor (Department) is proposing to rescind portions of its tip regulations issued pursuant to the Fair Labor Standards Act that impose restrictions on employers that pay a direct cash wage of at least the full federal minimum wage and do not seek to use a portion of tips as a credit toward their minimum wage obligations. This Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) seeks the views of the public on the Department’s proposed rescission of those portions of the regulations.

To flesh that out a little bit more, it would essentially make it a possibility for the employer to make a tipping pool, which means they can share the tips between employees even those that don't usually receive tips (cooks, washers etc.); as long as minimum wage is paid without the tips. Expanded better here:

In part because of these developments, the Department is concerned about the scope of its current tip regulations as applied to employers that pay the full Federal minimum wage to their tipped employees. The Department is also seriously concerned that it incorrectly construed the statute in promulgating the tip credit regulations that apply to such employers. Additionally, the Department seeks to consider whether it is unnecessary to prohibit the sharing of tips with employees who do not customarily receive tips, including restaurant cooks, dishwashers, and other traditionally lower-wage job classifications, when their employer does not take a tip credit under FLSA section 3(m) and its employees are paid at least the full Federal minimum wage. The Department is therefore proposing to rescind the parts of its tip regulations that bar tipsharing arrangements in establishments where the employers pay full Federal minimum wage and do not take a tip credit against their minimum wage obligations. This proposed rule applies only to employers that pay direct cash wages of at least the Federal minimum wage and do not take a tip credit. It does not apply to employers who pay less than the Federal minimum wage and take a tip credit

Now there is a concerning aspect, in that this proposal to some extend nullifies the 2011 FLSA tip-credit regulation, which in return could make this tip pool viable for the employer to keep all of it (essentially tipping wouldn't go to the one doing the job, but the restaurant overall). Which of course isn't a given, but it could be rather problematic that an employee is paid for a service done, yet do not actually see the reward for it.

Also its been just under two years since I posted a thread, so yay!

[kaelleria]

As someone that worked as a waitress while I was in college I can tell you this would completely kill the restaurant industry. You can make a fair amount of money waiting tables if you're decent at it and I know that I wouldn't have put up with it without the tips.

[Deleted]

As someone that worked as a waitress while I was in college I can tell you this would completely kill the restaurant industry. You can make a fair amount of money waiting tables if you're decent at it and I know that I wouldn't have put up with it without the tips.

Well they'd likely still be capable of finding employees, it is more that it would be concerning that employers could essentially be driving down the average wage of a waitress/waiter by taking the tips.

[Attackrabbit]

I can tell you this would completely kill the restaurant industry

And yet plenty of countries that don't insist on tips still have restaurants. Weird that isn't it?

[Elba]

Carrying food to your table isn’t worth $15 an hour on its own.

Every full time job is worth a living wage.

[Vizardlorde]

And yet plenty of countries that don't insist on tips still have restaurants. Weird that isn't it?

And the food is cheaper too. I just came back frim spain and food from restaurants was cheaper. Hell i pay more at chillys or applebees.

[UnkLegacy]

And the food is cheaper too. I just came back frim spain and food from restaurants was cheaper. Hell i pay more at chillys or applebees.

Service is also pretty much the same. My in-laws live in Germany and we've gone out plenty of times. I never really noticed a difference in the level of service. I've also never heard them compare German to US service, for better or worse.

[Edge-]

Says who? Even if you’re a disciple of Marx, the whole part of “each to their ability” is conveniently overlooked.

You forgot the other half of the Marx quote - "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". A living wage surely counts as a "need", no?

And I don't think you need to be a communist to hold the opinion that anyone putting in 40 hours a week should be able to survive without needing to get extra jobs or live on a shoestring budget that requires them to decide what bills they miss each month or what meals they'll skip to afford to pay rent etc. Just, you know, a decent human being.

[zenkai]

But I like giving people money for doing their job.

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I always liked the US tipping culture. You know you’re supposed to tip walking in, so it’s not a surprise. And knowing they’ll get 20% of your bill is a great mechanism to encourage good service. The positive attitude and attentiveness are what earns the tip. Carrying food to your table isn’t worth $15 an hour on its own.

You would think but more often than not, that's not the case. Some places have mandate gratuity, others have it over a certain party size, like 6 or more.

[kail]

But I like giving people money for doing their job.

Nothing is stopping you from doing so.

[Vizardlorde]

Says who? Even if you’re a disciple of Marx, the whole part of “each to their ability” is conveniently overlooked.

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It couldn’t be because they have a poorer standard of living than the US? Food was much cheaper in Brazil and China too. Doesn’t mean I’d want to live there. Food was more expensive in Sydney. Food is more expensive in NYC than Detroit. I fail to see the relevance of your point.

Nah the standard of living is comparable, I wouldn't say better.

[Lenonis]

Says who? Even if you’re a disciple of Marx, the whole part of “each to their ability” is conveniently overlooked.

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I'm not surprised you advocate subsidizing the cost of labor for business with taxpayer dollars. Which is the result of not paying full time workers a living wage

[Dontrike]

But I like giving people money for doing their job.

So you tip every single person that does something for you? You tip your garbage man, mail man, cashiers, the teachers that teach your kids (if you have any), cops, firefighters, EMTs, your various doctors, secretaries you meet with for appointments, people that cook your food, or pretty much anyone you have transactions with?

There's really no reason why servers/waiters need to be tipped when most other jobs/industries don't have that. Tips were a way for restaurants to save money during Prohibition and ever since then it stuck around. All it's doing is making us pay the workers their salary rather than the business. You know, the thing that every. Business. Does. Can you imagine if we had to do that for every single worker? What if a cleaning service only paid their workers $4 an hour and left it up to the places they clean to see if they get to afford to eat today. That's fucking asinine. In the end it doesn't matter anyways as if a server/waiter doesn't earn enough in tips the restaurant still has to pay to give them at least minimum wage, so why don't they just increase the prices to make up for paying their wages, or if they're some huge business (Applebees, Denny's, etc) they could actually pay their employees properly rather than making us fucking do it.

[Dontrike]

No. I just don’t agree with the ambiguous concept of “living wage” nor do I deny the hierarchy of labor and skills in the workforce. An adult attempting to live independently shouldn’t have the expectation of being able to do so working at McDonalds. Being a waitress, at least a good one, is a skill if not an art form. Having a pleasant and perfectly attentive waiter with a great knowledge of cuisine and drink makes the dining experience much more enjoyable. They’re compensated more than those who aren’t as good. Tipping is really the only fair method to compensate them.

There's also the employer paying them correctly based on their experience and skill, not making the customer front the cost of employing them.

Also working at McDonald's decades ago was far closer to living wage, and in many cases was a living wage, than it is now. Remember back then how you could actually afford to pay for college while attending and yet now it takes 15+ years to even pay for the damn thing that allows you to actually have a shot at lower class living.

Don’t expect to work at GameStop 40 hours a week and live like a junior finance analyst at a Fortune 500.

No one is fucking asking for that, but what people would like is that when their car breaks down they don't have to decide what they have to live without, like food or gas, just so they can continue to work. No one expects to live like a millionaire working at McDonald's, but they'd love to not have to worry every single day that some minor thing is going to happen and put them in even more debt.

[zenkai]

So you tip every single person that does something for you? You tip your garbage man, mail man, cashiers, the teachers that teach your kids (if you have any), cops, firefighters, EMTs, your various doctors, secretaries you meet with for appointments, people that cook your food, or pretty much anyone you have transactions with?

There's really no reason why servers/waiters need to be tipped when most other jobs/industries don't have that. Tips were a way for restaurants to save money during Prohibition and ever since then it stuck around. All it's doing is making us pay the workers their salary rather than the business. You know, the thing that every. Business. Does. Can you imagine if we had to do that for every single worker? What if a cleaning service only paid their workers $4 an hour and left it up to the places they clean to see if they get to afford to eat today. That's fucking asinine. In the end it doesn't matter anyways as if a server/waiter doesn't earn enough in tips the restaurant still has to pay to give them at least minimum wage, so why don't they just increase the prices to make up for paying their wages, or if they're some huge business (Applebees, Denny's, etc) they could actually pay their employees properly rather than making us fucking do it.

We really need a sarcasm font.

[Lenonis]

*snip*

in all sincerity that was a well thought out post with many points I agree with actually. Buuuuut at no point did you actually refute the point that substandard wages are allowed by government subsidizing the workforce which is an indirect form of corporate welfare.

And don't go all strawmanny by claiming people want janitors to have the same income as CEOs no one is advocating that.

Someone who works 40 hours a week should be able to afford the basics. Period. End of story. That is not always the case with how the minimum wage laws are now.

I just don't understand the sneer conservatives get when talking about low skill job. It's still a job. It's still honest work. So why do people feel like they should suffer because they didn't meet some arbitrary bootstrap tugging standard? They are still working a full time job. Not to mention there are often complete valid reasons why someone hasn't done more to advance themselves.

Anyway...I don't want to argue about meritocracy. Just starting, again, inadequate wages pad corporate profits at taxpayer expense. Period.

[Kiri]

in all sincerity that was a well thought out post with many points I agree with actually. Buuuuut at no point did you actually refute the point that substandard wages are allowed by government subsidizing the workforce which is an indirect form of corporate welfare.

And don't go all strawmanny by claiming people want janitors to have the same income as CEOs no one is advocating that.

Someone who works 40 hours a week should be able to afford the basics. Period. End of story. That is not always the case with how the minimum wage laws are now.

I just don't understand the sneer conservatives get when talking about low skill job. It's still a job. It's still honest work. So why do people feel like they should suffer because they didn't meet some arbitrary bootstrap tugging standard? They are still working a full time job. Not to mention there are often complete valid reasons why someone hasn't done more to advance themselves.

Anyway...I don't want to argue about meritocracy. Just starting, again, inadequate wages pad corporate profits at taxpayer expense. Period.

Yeah, and they can never explain how those jobs would be done if everyone had a higher paying job. Plus, they tend to put factory workers or miners for example on a pedestal compared to, say, those who work at MC Donalds, even though you often do not need a lot more skill to do that.

[Gestopft]

You can’t legislate an outcome that prevents Walmart from exploiting the safety net while allowing a 16 year old to work at GameStop for spending money.

Actually, some countries have a different minimum wage for teenagers than for adults.

[Lenonis]

I don’t like wal-mart getting subsidized labor any more than you do. But some occupations aren’t meant to support/provide a middle class lifestyle.

1) you are still strawmanning because no one ever said minimum wage should provide a middle class lifestyle. It should provide a minimum class lifestyle, but still a lifestyle. And 2) you don't like wal-mart getting subsidized labor then in your very next sentence started to justify it. That doesn't make a logically consistent argument.

And the living wage push will do nothing but force the low skill employers to automate. It’s already going to happen, but this would expedite it. How much longer until you just walk into every McDonalds and interact with an iPad?

If it's inevitable it's inevitable. I'm not convinced a living wage will cause this massive push to automate -- there are many areas that isn't feasible, possible, or economic. But, once again, the solution is just siphoning taxpayer dollars into the pockets of business. I'd rather see those business pay fair wages.

The idea you deserve or are entitled to a comfortable life simply for having a pulse is at direct odds with reality and a consumer based economy.

I'm honestly unsure of what you are considering comfortable. I've stated food, shelter, clothing. You keep bringing up comfort and middle class. We aren't on the same page.

[Lenonis]

Then you ignored my original post, because "food, shelter, clothing" are something every american has, regardless if they work 40 hours a week.

Not that they pay for. And when they can't afford it who pays for it?

Once again, you are proving my point about subsidization of labor.