WoW: The RPG Without Customization

[Deleted]

I think there is this thing in WoW called "elitism" that destroyed all foundation for a good RPG experience.
Everything must be played to be optimal and there is no such thing as roleplay anymore.
And customization is not only good for roleplay purposes. It can help you create a style that fits your playstyle and skill level.

But for example, in hearthstone, did you never made a deck with cards you like even though you know it's not optimal? Did you never made a deck just to have fun?
Or you are one of those guys who only plays Jade Druid because they are S tier and completely overpowered.

Some people like to have fun with their games.
For example, not long ago i decided to pick up my rogue that i stopped playing since WoD. What did i do? I transmoged myself into a pirate and picked up the talent Cannonball Barrage...just because i like to roleplay. This is a RPG afterall.

On a more serious note, in WotlK me and my friends decided to do our best in 5v5 arenas and me, as a rogue was getting constantly killed. So what did i do?
With the power of customization i full gemmed stamina, picked a meta gem with stamina and less duration on stuns and picked defensive talents.
And surprise, we got to 2100 rating (which is very good for my standards).

What i mean is that customization can be good to fit your own playstyle instead of playing the cookie cutter build and have no idea how to play it. Also good for roleplay reasons ofc.

[kary]

I think there is this thing in WoW called "elitism" that destroyed all foundation for a good RPG experience.
Everything must be played to be optimal and there is no such thing as roleplay anymore.
And customization is not only good for roleplay purposes. It can help you create a style that fits your playstyle and skill level.

But for example, in hearthstone, did you never made a deck with cards you like even though you know it's not optimal? Did you never made a deck just to have fun?
Or you are one of those guys who only plays Jade Druid because they are S tier and completely overpowered.

Some people like to have fun with their games.
For example, not long ago i decided to pick up my rogue that i stopped playing since WoD. What did i do? I transmoged myself into a pirate and picked up the talent Cannonball Barrage...just because i like to roleplay. This is a RPG afterall.

On a more serious note, in WotlK me and my friends decided to do our best in 5v5 arenas and me, as a rogue was getting constantly killed. So what did i do?
With the power of customization i full gemmed stamina, picked a meta gem with stamina and less duration on stuns and picked defensive talents.
And surprise, we got to 2100 rating (which is very good for my standards).

What i mean is that customization can be good to fit your own playstyle instead of playing the cookie cutter build and have no idea how to play it. Also good for roleplay reasons ofc.

You can play your shitbuilds with your friends.
Organized content tends to frown at shitbuilds.

[Kyanion]

I think there is this thing in WoW called "elitism" that destroyed all foundation for a good RPG experience.
Everything must be played to be optimal and there is no such thing as roleplay anymore.
And customization is not only good for roleplay purposes. It can help you create a style that fits your playstyle and skill level.

Yeah sorry, people strived for optimal builds when raiding in Vanilla, in TBC and so on. No one forces you to play that way and if someone (like a guild) tried to do so there are plenty of other guilds out there who wouldn't. I don't know what you even mean by 'roleplay'. You didn't RP with raid bosses as you were fighting them. I've done the same thing since Vanilla, go in a raid, kill trash, kill bosses, collect loot, repeat. Same game.

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You can play your shitbuilds with your friends.
Organized content tends to frown at shitbuilds.

It was fun to laugh at people in those shitbuilds when they joined a pug dungeon run and stuff. Like a warlock I knew who was so bad at the game they were using an agility weapon in TBC and had no clue how to play. They were setting trends and stuff.

[kary]

Yeah sorry, people strived for optimal builds when raiding in Vanilla, in TBC and so on. No one forces you to play that way and if someone (like a guild) tried to do so there are plenty of other guilds out there who wouldn't. I don't know what you even mean by 'roleplay'. You didn't RP with raid bosses as you were fighting them. I've done the same thing since Vanilla, go in a raid, kill trash, kill bosses, collect loot, repeat. Same game.

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It was fun to laugh at people in those shitbuilds when they joined a pug dungeon run and stuff. Like a warlock I knew who was so bad at the game they were using an agility weapon in TBC and had no clue how to play. They were setting trends and stuff.

I'll never forget the time we got a pick up tank for ICC 10 and he didn't spec hammer of reckoning (prot paladin) or holy shield.

We got to the last pack before marrowgar before we kicked him. It's fine if you wanna play with a shitbuild. Just not with me.

[Kyanion]

I'll never forget the time we got a pick up tank for ICC 10 and he didn't spec hammer of reckoning (prot paladin) or holy shield.

We got to the last pack before marrowgar before we kicked him. It's fine if you wanna play with a shitbuild. Just not with me.

Yup, I am usually pretty fair/lenient about what I bring when it comes to pugs. As long as you can stay alive and do more damage than the tanks you'll be fine. But when people try and 'break the meta' and create these oddball builds and think they are the best thing ever, that is when I have no use for them. My personal favorite are people that claim in the forums (like that Vidget guy) that their build was shitting all over people and they were the best thing evah.

[lazypeon100]

I don't think you know what an rpg is. The current game is an action adventure game. It's close to a game like Zelda.

I mean, LoZ is also a RPG. It has a laid out story it wants to tell ans it it puts you in the shoes of Link.

Is it my preferred kind of RPG? Nope, I dislike when the interactions are all forced in a direction I may not agree with. Sometimes games like that tell a better story, which is also totally fine.

For the most part though, I think the direction WoW is going in is overall unhealthy for the game. The gameplay choices are no longer compelling or based around one's personal playstyle (even if said playstyle isn't optimal).

Hunter pets are a good example of this. 27 of the 54 pet families either do not have an ability or have an ability that is detrimental to have. This leaves the choices fairly limited right off the bat because people will of course pick something that actually does something over the others.

This would be a good case where bringing back pet talents in some fashion could give the players meaningful choices without it being obvious cookie cutter stuff.

[kary]

I mean, LoZ is also a RPG. It has a laid out story it wants to tell ans it it puts you in the shoes of Link.

Is it my preferred kind of RPG? Nope, I dislike when the interactions are all forced in a direction I may not agree with. Sometimes games like that tell a better story, which is also totally fine.

For the most part though, I think the direction WoW is going in is overall unhealthy for the game. The gameplay choices are no longer compelling or based around one's personal playstyle (even if said playstyle isn't optimal).

Hunter pets are a good example of this. 27 of the 54 pet families either do not have an ability or have an ability that is detrimental to have. This leaves the choices fairly limited right off the bat because people will of course pick something that actually does something over the others.

This would be a good case where bringing back pet talents in some fashion could give the players meaningful choices without it being obvious cookie cutter stuff.

No hunter pet ability is detrimental, stop making things up.

[Deleted]

Yeah sorry, people strived for optimal builds when raiding in Vanilla, in TBC and so on. No one forces you to play that way and if someone (like a guild) tried to do so there are plenty of other guilds out there who wouldn't. I don't know what you even mean by 'roleplay'. You didn't RP with raid bosses as you were fighting them. I've done the same thing since Vanilla, go in a raid, kill trash, kill bosses, collect loot, repeat. Same game.

The game is not just raiding.

There is pvp, world content and dungeons. You can have specs with utility, survival, healer/dps, tank/dps, burst damage, a tree that focus on casts while moving.
There are a lot of ways to play a game.

[Kyanion]

The game is not just raiding.

Right it is dungeons too, farming mats etc. I don't give a shit what you do solo but when you try and bring your shitbuild into content with other people you are just holding them back and making shit take longer.

[Deleted]

Right it is dungeons too, farming mats etc. I don't give a shit what you do solo but when you try and bring your shitbuild into content with other people you are just holding them back and making shit take longer.

If a person does that is because they are either an "asshole" or a "clueless gamer"
That person knows what he/she is doing if he enters group content with crazy builds. He is being an asshole.

But assholes be assholes and clueless gamers be clueless gamers...is the same with or without customization.

[lazypeon100]

No hunter pet ability is detrimental, stop making things up.

Worm AOE and Chimera AOE say hi. Both are confusing for new players because they assume they should be used and often leaves uninformed players using something that does around cata levels amount of damage.

Are you saying that wouldn't be detrimental to someone's damage or that it isn't highly confusing? Want to address the rest of the post by chance?

[kary]

Worm AOE and Chimera AOE say hi. Both are confusing for new players because they assume they should be used and often leaves uninformed players using something that does around cata levels amount of damage.

Are you saying that wouldn't be detrimental to someone's damage or that it isn't highly confusing? Want to address the rest of the post by chance?

The stop making things up part addresses the entirety of the post quite well.

The gameplay choices are no longer compelling or based around one's personal playstyle (even if said playstyle isn't optimal).

Headcanon.

[InfiniteCharger]

-Removal of Hybrid Talents
-Removal of Talent Trees
-Removal of Gems in every piece of gear and Meta gem
-Removal of Glyphs
-Removal of Reforging
-PvP Templates
-Artifact Weapon (same skills for everyone)

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Anyone else feels sad about the fact that "Customization" is frowned upon by Blizzard?
Imagination, experimentation and testing are pretty much forbidden and replaced by a standard gameplay everyone must play.

The excuse of Blizzard is "there is always a cookie cutter build"
I agree that in PvE-single target damage there is always a "cookie cutter" build of "stand still and do the most DPS"
But for PvP and World Content...there are always a million different choices you can take to be optimal. (Utility, Survival, Burst, Hybrid etc)
I call bullcrap on this excuse and i say they removed customization because is just easier to balance the game from day one.

• Was it really necessary to remove all types of customization from the game just because "there is always a cookie cutter build for single target PvE"?
  
• What about coming up with crazy new stuff that, if not optimal, it could be the gameplay you enjoy the most?
  
• Isn't "Customization" essential for a good RPG experience?

Anyway, i know we are way past that point and customization is never coming back strong (Netherlight Crucible, just a little taste) I just wanted to know if anyone else feels as sad as me on this topic.

Unfortunately I always viewed the RPG elements and customization in WOW as fairly limited so it really isn't shocking the evolution they have taken since Vanilla.

In my mind the whole idea of an RPG going back to D&D was you had various schools of magic and within each school a bunch of different spells and abilities. Each of those spells and abilities had ranks and an individual character's customization was based on which spells they were proficient in and the levels they reached. The underlying assumption being that no single player could master every single spell and ability. In WOW they had some of that with spell ranks and the talent tree but it was limited. There were other games at the time that had deeper trees of abilities and spells and your character could choose 2 or 3 trees and then begin increasing their levels within them. WOW never had an extensive system of skill and ability trees. And the main reason I see is that calculating all the variables within an encounter just becomes too complex especially factoring all the rock, paper, scissor type combos where NPCs have buffs, resists and the same kinds of skill trees and abilities the players do. And on top of that, RPGs never implied a sense of balance, as each skill or ability has its strengths and weaknesses against other skills and abilities both within and against other schools of magic. And the whole point of the RPG concept is the player has to choose a set of skills and abilities for the party best suited to the encounter. But a lot of people have been complaining about "balance" in WOW which is why most of the game is built around DPS now with no concepts of resists and various schools of magic being better/worse against others. Not to mention, they have not added any NEW spells for most classes since how long? NPCs don't even have the same skills and abilities as players used to back in vanilla.

[Darkguyver2020]

We don't even really have this. Look at Wildstar's customization, both character and housing-related, and it's miles and miles ahead of anything we have in WoW.

And yet Wildstar is a dead game while WoW continues to live on.

[lazypeon100]

The stop making things up part addresses the entirety of the post quite well.



Headcanon.

Great argument. Ten out of ten.

[Pua]

In the end what we got with Garrisons was the closest thing Blizz have ever given us with regards to player housing.. And more than likely the only time we will ever have something like it in WoW..

I'm not really arguing with that.

I'm simply saying that it's NOT player housing, so nobody should argue that it is.

[Al Gorefiend]

Character customization died when boss guides became mandatory, and maxing character DPS became a mandatory byproduct.

Blizz was right, people will find the talent with the best DPS increase out of 3 and always pick that one. It's actually better in Legion. In MoP and WoD some talents outperformed others of the same tier by giving you 10-15% more dps

[grexly75]

Want to see something interesting just came across this video of an 0.5 Alpha version of World of Warcraft, and my jaw dropped way back then there was no talent tree at all originally it was a long list of abilities that you spent points in very much like you see in games like Fallout and the like..

From what I watched customization of you character was even more intricate, why Blizzard dumped this to go with talent trees we will probably never know..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0vVWZNGn3w

Just look at the video and you will see what was originally intended for the game back then, because it makes the talent trees of the day look like crap..

[papajohn4]

As for the talent tree bit, it was a bit meh and to be considered competitive and so on you had to take a certain build be even considered viable in a raid team.. And lets not forget that certain classes were pigeon holed into certain specs if they wanted to raid..

Thats the most common "fake" argument against talent trees... its far from true... maybe the top 5% of players who care for hardcore raiding could follow a standard build but the majority of players did use different build depending on their playstyles...

Players who leveling, farming in open world, running dungeons, pvp all used different builds! Look at vanilla -tbc-wotlk talent trees and tell me you cannot make 3-5 different builds that are all viable and fun for the 95% of the players...

Even among top players there were differences. I remember i had bookmarked some top players of each class and even them had different builds...

I will only agree about cataclysm... they dumbed down talent trees and gave you half the talent points and you couldnt do much more than the obvious.. and then they said "look how dumb the talent trees are, lets change it"