[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[zito]

i really dislike the content delay. I finished everything by day 3 and I work a full time job so I don't believe shit when they say we would have to much to do. If it was delayed weekly i guess that's fine but it's not. I think it wasn't finished at all and they just needed a bs excuse to delay it.

[StrawberryZebra]

It wasn't much of a concern for WoW until Blizz did major class overhauls.

From what I remember of WoW's overhauls, they made some of the most important skills you'd get baseline for your class starting from level 10 onwards when you could pick a spec. It solved a lot of longer standing issues with their classes, like how Feral Druids were stuck with Maul and Claw for 50 odd levels before they could get Mangle, or how Paladins had to get to the very end of their Ret tree to get hold of Crusader Strike.

Pushing core rotational skills and mechanics earlier into the leveling experience allows for players to be familiar with the basics of how their class works long before you start introducing more advanced concepts like cooldowns or procs and such. It made going from 1-85 level a much smoother process than the previous design where you'd have to slog through X levels with a minimal skill set until you could get something like Crusader Strike that opened up the spec.

Leveling in FF14 currently is quite jarring for the same reasons, some jobs are getting major direction changes going from 50-60, then another one from 60-70. They end up with a structure that feels quite unnatural, like the Ninja where 1-30 is a focus on dagger weapon skills, 30-50 is about the Ninja actions and pure DPS, 50-60 forces you to get used to targeting allies to use your threat reduction, and 60-70 adds a whole new mechanic in the form of Ninki.

Some of that is just so every job has a gauge - Why they thought this was a requirement is beyond me, some jobs have mechanics that feel bolted on just to make use of it rather than having it as an organic part of play. The end result however is you've effectively got multiple stages of job development rather than a more natural feeling curve. Right at the end of your character development is the wrong time to be introducing massive shifts in play style.

I've always been an advocate for rapid skill accrual early on and slow more impactful/powerful abilities later on. To me that mirrors how the real world works. You can accrue skill quickly, but then the first wall comes and you break through it, learn something new, then meet a new wall, etc.

It's something I'd like to see too. Having the basic structures and mechanics of a Job in place under level 20 or so gives you a solid foundational understanding of how your job works before you start introducing the more nuanced mechanics on top. Think cooldowns, procs and such.

If leveling is to be the kind of elongated tutorial players seem to expect it to be, then having to relearn your Job from scratch every 10 levels isn't the way to achieve that. Given the very disjointed nature of some jobs, it's super easy to get players into bad habits for 30-40 levels before asking them to unlearn it. Devs really should be encouraging good play habits right from level 1.

[lawow74]

i really dislike the content delay. I finished everything by day 3 and I work a full time job so I don't believe shit when they say we would have to much to do. If it was delayed weekly i guess that's fine but it's not. I think it wasn't finished at all and they just needed a bs excuse to delay it.

Part of it is they want more time to polish it, part of it is that it's easier to keep someone around for six weeks on the promise of something new by then than it is to dump everything upfront and watch people burn through it in a couple of weeks and unsub for 2 more months. Moo, cow, give us your milk.

[dope_danny]

So i was thinking about the next 24 man and remembered they name dropped Vagrant Story -the lesser known cult classic of the ivalice games- and thinking on it i would bet good money the sunken city/necropolis of Lea Monde is the next part of the ivalice raid.

[Graeham]

So i was thinking about the next 24 man and remembered they name dropped Vagrant Story -the lesser known cult classic of the ivalice games- and thinking on it i would bet good money the sunken city/necropolis of Lea Monde is the next part of the ivalice raid.

If you speak to Jenomis after the raid is completed you can ask him about his wife. He mentions that her name is Tia which is yet another reference to Vagrant Story...and more importantly he considers how Auracite could potentially be used to bring her back. Given how big a part the undead played in that game I could see the finale being rather dark and bittersweet.

I'd love to see parts of Lea Monde re-imagined in FFXIV. Especially if we get some of the music added to the game, too. Vagrant Story is still one of my favourite games to this very day.

[dope_danny]

If you speak to Jenomis after the raid is completed you can ask him about his wife. He mentions that her name is Tia which is yet another reference to Vagrant Story...and more importantly he considers how Auracite could potentially be used to bring her back. Given how big a part the undead played in that game I could see the finale being rather dark and bittersweet.

I'd love to see parts of Lea Monde re-imagined in FFXIV. Especially if we get some of the music added to the game, too. Vagrant Story is still one of my favourite games to this very day.

Same, revisiting it now its like a wierd blend of Parasite Eve controls and Demon's Souls in theming with a bunch of original stuff without a good comparison.

Also kind of reminds me of koudelka but both are really just """realistic""" proportioned low poly models in a grimdark visual setting.

[The Casualty]

class changes - snipped for brevity

I agree with about every point you made here. Its unfortunate that you could be playing a class and enjoy it's flow and mechanics and by the time you get to level cap it plays completely different than the job that you signed on for - even 10 levels prior. The most egregious examples I can think of is HW Bard and Wanderer's Minuet changing core gameplay design and the current iteration of Machinist changing once you get heated skills and it not really coming together until Flamethrower at 70. I think the heat gauge gameplay is unfortunately terrible and unnecessary.

[Graeham]

Same, revisiting it now its like a wierd blend of Parasite Eve controls and Demon's Souls in theming with a bunch of original stuff without a good comparison.

Also kind of reminds me of koudelka but both are really just """realistic""" proportioned low poly models in a grimdark visual setting.

I was too young to beat it at first, so I never got very far on my first attempt. A few years later, though, I tried again and fell in love. If it wasn't such a pain to dust off my PS2 I'd likely play it again. I'm hoping for it to get the Remaster treatment someday.

[Resiak]

I'm not really in agreement with front loading skills while leveling. I prefer a smooth roll out of abilities across the entire leveling range. The idea is to get stronger and gain the more interesting abilities over time.

I loved playing the baldurs gate games when I was younger, and my go to class for my character was the mages. My reason was the way the mages power grew versus other classes. You started with basic spells you can only cast a couple times, and ended up a walking nuke. It's the same thing in MMOS, I want to earn the fun abilities as I level. Thats the exciting part of leveling.

I started leveling a paladin 8 months ago in WoW. They way they did the classes, your primary rotational abilities are all earned fairly early. I've been using the same rotation for 30 levels now. It's gotten to be a slog and I've tapered off at 92. It's gotten boring having basically no really character growth for 30 levels. I much prefer how 14's abilities are spread out, and you grow into your character. Maybe at most I'd be ok with them rearranging what abilities are learned when so that some core concepts of a class are introduced earlier, but I don't need the full rotation implemented early on, and cool downs the rest of the way, that drains the excitement out of leveling.

[lawow74]

But the problem is that they introduce major changes late in level progression, instead of early. For example, BRD's trait of Empyreal Arrow proc'ing song effects should have been introduced early in the 60-70 curve so you have more time to get used to it. Same with Refulgent Arrow, it should have been introduced by the mid-60's. This habit of 'oh have this major overhaul to how your job plays at level cap' is an idea that sounds good, like a reward for reaching that point, but in practice it's jarring.

[zito]

But the problem is that they introduce major changes late in level progression, instead of early. For example, BRD's trait of Empyreal Arrow proc'ing song effects should have been introduced early in the 60-70 curve so you have more time to get used to it. Same with Refulgent Arrow, it should have been introduced by the mid-60's. This habit of 'oh have this major overhaul to how your job plays at level cap' is an idea that sounds good, like a reward for reaching that point, but in practice it's jarring.

Bahamut threw me off when i hit 70 on my smn. Haven't touched it since.

I think next xpac is going to bea re jumble of skills and changing role actions cause role actions are ass

[Katchii]

Bahamut threw me off when i hit 70 on my smn. Haven't touched it since.

I think next xpac is going to bea re jumble of skills and changing role actions cause role actions are ass

I love the SMN aesthetic, am not a huge fan of the game play really, it's still amazing solo though. Bahamut is really non intuitive to use effectively, or downright impossible if you don't get your timing exactly right on the encounters. And the fact that it's literally a 1.5 minute build up to use him almost every time just makes the whole class feel like a one trick pony, focused entirely on building up to and using Bahamut.

I still play it though because I truly do LOVE the aesthetic of the class garb and the summoning powerful beings to do your bidding.

[StrawberryZebra]

I'm not really in agreement with front loading skills while leveling. I prefer a smooth roll out of abilities across the entire leveling range. The idea is to get stronger and gain the more interesting abilities over time.

You can get more powerful and interesting abilities as you level, without needing to keep all the game changing abilities to the very end.

Look at the Astrologian as an example. You get your basic card abilities as soon as you pick up the class. From then on you get various means to build on that mechanic such as being able to hold a card until needed or to change an unwanted on into either a heal or a strong nuke, as well as options to extend your buffs and such interspersed with improved healing skills and cooldowns.

It's one of the better designed jobs in the game, imo. It starts off by introducing you to your jobs core mechanic, then slowly builds on it as you progress. At no point does it ever feel like you're playing something that's incomplete and you never get a massive shift in how the job plays during leveling. This works out well both at end game, since by the time you get to 70 you've had a lot of time to get used to the important parts of the job, and while leveling since you never get synced to a point at which playing the job was a chore.

Others, like the Machinist and Summoner, get the core parts of their game play at level 70. They're a broken mess until the very last level of the game. Imagine if the Astrologian got all their card manipulating abilities between 30 and 50, but had to get all the way to 70 to get the ability to draw the card to begin with. It sounds awful, but it's the same situation other jobs are in right now.

This habit of 'oh have this major overhaul to how your job plays at level cap' is an idea that sounds good, like a reward for reaching that point, but in practice it's jarring.

It's even more jarring when you have an overhaul from 50-60, then another one from 60-70. It makes the job feel like a broken mess for most of the experience. I'd much rather they rearranged the skills you get into some kind of cohesive model.

By far the worst part of the current model though is that it completely invalidates any experience you've got with the job below max level. If leveling is intended as a way to teach players their Job in small managable chunks, then completely ripping all that up when they hit 70 isn't the way to go about it. You might as well just start players at max level, it's going to have the same effect with none of the associated frustrations.

I think the heat gauge gameplay is unfortunately terrible and unnecessary.

Honestly, I like the sound of a heat gauge on paper, but how they've implemented it is very strange. A gauge where there was a "sweet spot" you tried to stay in where your skills had bonus damage or effects, with a temporary penalty for overheating sounds much more agreeable. Combine it with a system where shots either build heat or spend it and you've created a very simple mechanic that has a lot of play potential to it.

Squenix's current heat gauge however, is a hot mess. Pun intended. It feels awkward and unnessacary in it's current form. I'd expect it to be changed again with the next expansion, quite likely though forced on changes as you level from 70-80 that mean you'll need to relearn the job from scratch at 80.

I loved playing the baldurs gate games when I was younger, and my go to class for my character was the mages. My reason was the way the mages power grew versus other classes. You started with basic spells you can only cast a couple times, and ended up a walking nuke. It's the same thing in MMOS, I want to earn the fun abilities as I level. Thats the exciting part of leveling.

Wizards, any by extension Mages as a whole, are usually buff bots in D&D. A Fireball might do decent enough up-front damage, but it absolutely pales in comparison to what a Hasted Warrior class can do. Haste also has a solid duration too, so it'll keep your Warrior wrecking everything in sight long after the Fireball is spent, and offers far more damage for the same spell slot than damaging spells do. The same is true of most Arcane spells in the D&D universe, Damage spells are almost always outclassed by fully buffed up Warriors. Crowd Control spells and other "Save or Die" spells being the only notable exceptions.

[Conditions]

I love the SMN aesthetic, am not a huge fan of the game play really, it's still amazing solo though. Bahamut is really non intuitive to use effectively, or downright impossible if you don't get your timing exactly right on the encounters. And the fact that it's literally a 1.5 minute build up to use him almost every time just makes the whole class feel like a one trick pony, focused entirely on building up to and using Bahamut.

I still play it though because I truly do LOVE the aesthetic of the class garb and the summoning powerful beings to do your bidding.

I main BRD but would love to play SMN, but having Bahamut do a little spaz-walk every single time I move after pressing Akh Morn is soul destroying. SMNs strengths came in good damage whilst still keeping mobility, however with Bahamut you pretty much have to stand still or you lose so many potency.

[Graeham]

There's apparently going to be some information about the game at E3. I wonder what they'll announce? I imagine some sort of collaboration event with Kingdom Hearts 3 though I hope we get a sneak peek at some future content that hasn't yet been announced.

[Strangebrew]

There's apparently going to be some information about the game at E3. I wonder what they'll announce? I imagine some sort of collaboration event with Kingdom Hearts 3 though I hope we get a sneak peek at some future content that hasn't yet been announced.

Absolutely nothing, this is just Yoshi-P hogwash, as usual.

At best it's just going to be information we already know or it's going to be about the companion app.

[Granyala]

I'm not really in agreement with front loading skills while leveling. I prefer a smooth roll out of abilities across the entire leveling range. The idea is to get stronger and gain the more interesting abilities over time.

Gaining stronger skills, situational cooldowns is okay.
The core class mechanics should be there from very early on though, so people get accustomed to them.

Changing the class radically (e.g. BLM @ Lv 60 in HW) once you reach max level is idiotic design.

[Conditions]

Gaining stronger skills, situational cooldowns is okay.
The core class mechanics should be there from very early on though, so people get accustomed to them.

Changing the class radically (e.g. BLM @ Lv 60 in HW) once you reach max level is idiotic design.

Well going back to SMN, DWT/Bahamut windows being an example. You spend a lot of time in them at 70 but you don't see DWT for ages, and Bahamut until 70.
MCH is probably the worst - the rotation is complete nonsense before max level and you don't really learn anything except managing your gauge.
Astrologian is easily the best example of how you can get accustomed to a job that doesn't change too much leading up to 70.

[Onikaroshi]

Well going back to SMN, DWT/Bahamut windows being an example. You spend a lot of time in them at 70 but you don't see DWT for ages, and Bahamut until 70.
MCH is probably the worst - the rotation is complete nonsense before max level and you don't really learn anything except managing your gauge.
Astrologian is easily the best example of how you can get accustomed to a job that doesn't change too much leading up to 70.

I actually had fun with mch pre 70, after flamethrower though it becomes too much of a pain. It's like, you have ten seconds, hit everything! Seemed to flow better prior and you got more time above 50 heat, now it's like trying to spend all that time overheated or with no heat at all.

Oh well, just trying to get everything to 70 anyway already got hand and land and about 2/5s the combat classes.

[Conditions]

gh
Yeah, AST gets "their mechanic" early on. It makes a lot more sense.

I feel like the biggest problem here is that Square is still having issues with class design. They don't know where they want each class to be it seems, so they keep reinventing things every time the level cap goes up. Hell, half of the meters added in SB feel like they exist just for the sake of it, they add very little to the gameplay of most jobs. Yet you won't know that until level 64 or something on a lot of them.

Imagine playing a Rogue in WoW and combo points don't exist until level 105.

Anyway, for all their successes in other areas of the game, I feel like they have a lot of ground to make up with other MMOs with regards to encounter and class design. Hell, we had "Kill these spawns or the boss goes invulnerable and one shots the raid." as a primary mechanic on every damn primal fight for HOW long?

I love the Primal fights and think their concept is very unique, they usually have good soundtracks and visuals.

But they're also incredibly boring for the most part which is why killing one is like learning how to ride a bike. Raids on the other hand are getting better, Math test anyone?