Teir 13 Shadow 4 Piece Simcrafts (Regular rotation vs Mind Spike)

[Kilee25]

I suspect it's not so contested in 10-mans, but in 25s, DI is... to be honest I wish they would just delete the buff. Our guild is not as competitive as some guilds, and I feel the strain of it many nights.

The buff is many things:

1. Status symbol - Everyone likes me and thinks I'm the best/worthy of this buff.
2. Trophy - I got this buff because I did the best dps.
3. Jealously coveted - If I do better dps maybe they will give it to me.
4. Fought over - if I can convince everyone I'm the best class/target for the buff I will get it.
5. Bribed for - If I can get in the warlock/guild leader/raid's social graces, they will give me the buff because they like me.
6. Responsibility - If I don't keep up a level of performance and DPS, everyone will hate me for having this buff.
7. Judge - Everyone is looking at me and judging me on every single fight on my worth as a player.

Then you take all those things and stir them in a raid of 25 people, 7-8 casters, and imagine what it's like. Even when things are civil and everyone is nice, all that stuff is brewing just under the surface. I love the buff. I hate the buff. I can't believe Bliz even had the balls to make a statement about homogenizing the game and taking away unique buffs, and then putting a thing like that in there.

I have wondered often at why it still exists. No one is complaining about it openly on the forums because everyone wants it.. Bliz already nerfed it once. I'm sure they are aware in some way what the problems are with it. Whenever they do the MOP overhaul of warlocks, it's one of the first things I expect to see gone. The only reason they might not do away with it is that there could be some vague worry that guilds will stop taking warlocks if they become redundant with shadowpriests...

Oi.... sorry to derail the thread. Had to get that out of my system.

[gakpad]

In my experience, even the most hardcore of guilds rarely go completely by the numbers when selecting DI targets. Regardless of whether the shadowpriest was using this casting method or not, I seriously doubt it would be the "deciding factor" for targets. Even in guilds that are min/maxing, implying that DI targets are completely unbiased is a load of crock. You know as well as I that when dealing with 2 similar strength classes, favors are curred for the buff that has more to do with friendships and bias than any number crunching. I would even go so far to say that it is probably worse the higher progressed a guild is, rather than more objective.

In any case, making that kind of choice seems predicated on the warlock being very selfish. "If you cast a certain way, I'm taking your buff away." Eh? That has nothing to do with net raid dps. That's just the warlock saying, "I'm only giving it to the person who makes MY dps the best." And I don't think casting this way will make Fire Mages better targets. Moonkins, maybe, if the Moonkin is also as good as or better than the priest. But Fire Mages? No... even a small bit of downtime won't make up the difference there.

And after all is said and done, if you're giving your shadowpriest that kind of ultimatum, it sounds like you already don't like the person and are just looking for an excuse to take it away. Give them a warning at the very least before you take the buff away. "Hey if I see you mind spiking, I'm giving DI to someone else, yo."

It has nothing to do with the warlocks personal dps, by switching to MS during shadowfiend you are in fact a worse candidate for raid dps. If you have DI and are using mindspike and insist you still get DI YOU are the one being selfish about personal dps vs raid dps. ~8% less uptime is a LOT,especially considering how close the top three (spriest, moonkin, fire mage) already are in terms of raid dps value, and you are wasting the warlocks procs on you for the duration of the shadowfiend as well.

[Deleted]

I'm sure I read a blue post a LONG time ago that they liked the fighting over DI because it's from warlocks... and you're supposed to hate warlocks.

Maybe I was dreaming though, sounds like something I'd dream.

[Kilee25]

It has nothing to do with the warlocks personal dps, by switching to MS during shadowfiend you are in fact a worse candidate for raid dps. If you have DI and are using mindspike and insist you still get DI YOU are the one being selfish about personal dps vs raid dps. ~8% less uptime is a LOT,especially considering how close the top three (spriest, moonkin, fire mage) already are in terms of raid dps value, and you are wasting the warlocks procs on you for the duration of the shadowfiend as well.

This isn't true. If I can change a rotation, do 1000 more dps, and this lowers your dps by, say, 500, then I've still created a net 500 additional raid dps. In this situation, raid DPS has in no way decreased. It MIGHT lower candidacy for DI when compared to another class, and it might not. But either way, there needs to be some numbers run on this before you can say one way or another which is best.

Also I haven't really seen any updated DI statistics since way before 4.3. I wonder how things stack up these days.

[gakpad]

Lol, you'll CERTAINLY lose candidacy for DI compared to other classes. The warlock would lose a lot more than 500 dps also because 8% loss of uptime on 9% of all our dot damage is a huge deal. You're also not factoring that our procs on the priests would go wasted as well for a solid 30 seconds of the fight in a single target situation. You also assume that your dps gain is high enough to make up for all of that which, from what I've gathered from this thread, is false because the dps gain from switching to MS is not an enormous gain. Spriests are *barely* ahead of moonkins as it is (actually worse than moonkins once the characters in question reach full BiS) and taking away 8% uptime on the warlock will completely and totally make you inferior to moonkins/fire mages as a DI target.

[Kilee25]

I was speaking of total dps for the entire fight, not just the few seconds it goes down. It is indeed quite possible that the DPS loss is negligable compared to the gain in DPS. It seems to me like you just want it to be a certain way because you want it to be. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, just that this needs more study and consideration than you're giving it. I'm showing in simcraft right now in normal-mode BIS gear over 1000 DPS gain from using MS during fiend. How much DPS per downtime will this affect a warlock realistically? I'd like to have an answer to this rather than just opinion. SF lasts 15 seconds, and the DI buff can last 7. This means you may only have a down-time of 8 seconds, or none if there is a way to keep it rolling during the fiend (additional targets, or using MF sparringly inbetween). There's not even a garantee that you would need to refresh a dot during this down time.

Does anyone know a way to affect DI up-time in Simulationcraft for a warlock? I am curious how the DI charts are created.

---------- Post added 2012-01-04 at 11:13 PM ----------

This is also something to consider:

Right now, the "optimum" rotation I'm considering would be like this:

Fiend
AA
MB
MSX3
MF
MB
MSx3
MF
MB
refresh dots, continue rotation

There are 2 opportunities to refresh DI in the rotation. And from the first MS hitting, and the first dot being re-applied, you go through about 12 GCDs (13 seconds), in which only a fraction will be potential down time. Although not garanteed, the chance is not completely zero either, which means "on average" the decrease in up-time will not be a blanket 8% drop. And also an 8% drop does not represent an 8% decrease in your damage (or 8% of 9% or whatever), because you may not refresh dots in whatever window might happen where it is down. Certainly there will be "some" loss, but the question is how much compared to the gain in DPS for the Spriest to do it. I'm willing to bet it's not nearly as drastic as you make it out to be.

[zakaluka]

I'm not completely familiar with all the mechanics here, but I am curious about something. For a fight like spine, where you're bursting the tendril down, you would AA/fiend and fall into mindspike spam as soon as the tendril appears.

At this moment there are also several adds. You should have at least 2 bloods (maybe 4-8 on 2nd/3rd) being tanked on the side. You also have a few seconds where you've got absolutely nothing better to do than spread 4 quick SW:P's.

So, at 18 seconds into tendril when that last SW:P fades - how much longer would the warlock's DI last at that moment?
How long is the tendril's channel?

(idea: maybe if there are adds up when you want to use AA/spikeblast you can cheese the warlock's DI buff?)

[Constantino]

our resto druids get the DI lol. Heals lacking more than DPS I guess.

[FieryBull]

The latest release of SimulationCraft 430-5 fixed something about mind spike not correctly removing dots in simulations. I compiled it and the result I got is a DPS decrease using Kilee's action list.

Something to look into further.

[kaelix1]

So i had 2 tier13 397 and 2 tier13 384 whent to dummy to test the MS/MB rotation with AA and SF over 5min it whas no suprise that i did lower dps with tier13 (lost ton of intelect + i had reforge mastery-crit for my normal gear +14.5%hit+ i whas oom rolf)last 2 sec) what suprise me whas that i did 26k with t12-2p(391) t13-2p(397) and 24.4 with t13-2p(397)-2p(384) now im sure that with full t13 397 i can do more dps if i use SF-AA MS/MB + proper reforge
Now i have one question for the people that try it and use it how much u delay your AA if u dont have SF ready? and do u use MS/BM everytime your SF is ready or only at the start when u have AA and SF ready 100%

[Paskgotsheal]

I was speaking of total dps for the entire fight, not just the few seconds it goes down. It is indeed quite possible that the DPS loss is negligable compared to the gain in DPS. It seems to me like you just want it to be a certain way because you want it to be. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, just that this needs more study and consideration than you're giving it. I'm showing in simcraft right now in normal-mode BIS gear over 1000 DPS gain from using MS during fiend. How much DPS per downtime will this affect a warlock realistically? I'd like to have an answer to this rather than just opinion. SF lasts 15 seconds, and the DI buff can last 7. This means you may only have a down-time of 8 seconds, or none if there is a way to keep it rolling during the fiend (additional targets, or using MF sparringly inbetween). There's not even a garantee that you would need to refresh a dot during this down time.

Does anyone know a way to affect DI up-time in Simulationcraft for a warlock? I am curious how the DI charts are created.

---------- Post added 2012-01-04 at 11:13 PM ----------

This is also something to consider:

Right now, the "optimum" rotation I'm considering would be like this:

Fiend
AA
MB
MSX3
MF
MB
MSx3
MF
MB
refresh dots, continue rotation

There are 2 opportunities to refresh DI in the rotation. And from the first MS hitting, and the first dot being re-applied, you go through about 12 GCDs (13 seconds), in which only a fraction will be potential down time. Although not garanteed, the chance is not completely zero either, which means "on average" the decrease in up-time will not be a blanket 8% drop. And also an 8% drop does not represent an 8% decrease in your damage (or 8% of 9% or whatever), because you may not refresh dots in whatever window might happen where it is down. Certainly there will be "some" loss, but the question is how much compared to the gain in DPS for the Spriest to do it. I'm willing to bet it's not nearly as drastic as you make it out to be.

This is the rotation i used on tendon last night, (last 23 seconds and I did about 1.2-1.4 mil everytime, comparable to arcane mages.)

I have a macro

/cleartarget
/targetexact Burning Tendons
/use 13
/use 14
/use Archangel
/cast Mind blast

I am using the valor trinket since it's 2300 spellpower on use, its obviously much better for burst dps. Next step i think is reforging EVERYTHING to mastery...that should up my damage even more. (I am currently reforged down to 2589, but i think even lower would be fine to push out max dps on tendon)

After that macro i hit shadow fiend (since AA lasts 20 sec and fiend only 15, MSX3 then MB, MS X 4 or 5 idk then MB then finish it off with a few more mind spikes or SWD if its the second push on the tendon (never get more then 3 MB's in a rotation)

Is mf more DPS then mind spike with 3 orbs? It doesn't seem like it i may be wrong though, the only time i MF is right before MB comes up just so i don't accidentally use it.

Also i have /cancelaura Mind Melt in both mind spike and mind blast so i don't use the instant cast mind blast.

---------- Post added 2012-01-05 at 01:57 PM ----------

So i had 2 tier13 397 and 2 tier13 384 whent to dummy to test the MS/MB rotation with AA and SF over 5min it whas no suprise that i did lower dps with tier13 (lost ton of intelect + i had reforge mastery-crit for my normal gear +14.5%hit+ i whas oom rolf)last 2 sec) what suprise me whas that i did 26k with t12-2p(391) t13-2p(397) and 24.4 with t13-2p(397)-2p(384) now im sure that with full t13 397 i can do more dps if i use SF-AA MS/MB + proper reforge
Now i have one question for the people that try it and use it how much u delay your AA if u dont have SF ready? and do u use MS/BM everytime your SF is ready or only at the start when u have AA and SF ready 100%

usually it's up right when AA, if not it's < 10 sec behind if i have bad RNG on MF crits.

[Wekapedia]

our resto druids get the DI lol. Heals lacking more than DPS I guess.

I can imagine that in Normal mode.

[kaelix1]

@Paskgotsheal test it last night like crazy all the time i need to wait 10-15 sec for SF or AA when i try the MS/MB i mean at start the burst is insane but after that i never have AA and SF at the same time ready how much time u need to wait till its start to be a dps lose by delay your CDs for ex one time i had SF ready but AA 15sec on cd or AA ready and SF 50 sec on cd this is the thing i dont get it do i need to wait till i have SF and AA ready to do the MS/MB rotation or just do it when SF is ready because i dont like waiting 10-15 maybe more for cds (usually is a dps lose)

[tsa]

@Paskgotsheal: why canceling mind melt?

[Skygoneblue]

@Paskgotsheal: why canceling mind melt?

Pretty sure it's because, ideally, you are timing your Mind Spikes and Mind Blasts to synchronize with the melee hits of your Shadowfiend. So, rather than accidentally cast the Mind Blast too soon (if you're a button masher), you subject yourself to the cast time, and it syncs up nicely.

[Kilee25]

That is correct. If you Mind Spike x3 -> Mind Blast, the 3rd spike will eat up the orbs, and the MB will not get any, because it is instant and happens immediately after. You have to delay/space the time between them so that another swing of the shadowfiend gets through. You can do this in one of two ways. Use a cancel aura macro, or cast a spell inbetween that doesn't munch orbs.

[tsa]

Thanks a lot for the answer that make me understand the MF before MB in kilee reply

[Arlee]

That is correct. If you Mind Spike x3 -> Mind Blast, the 3rd spike will eat up the orbs, and the MB will not get any, because it is instant and happens immediately after. You have to delay/space the time between them so that another swing of the shadowfiend gets through. You can do this in one of two ways. Use a cancel aura macro, or cast a spell inbetween that doesn't munch orbs.

So I was trying this out last night on Spine and first off, I had just gotten my 4pc 5 min before the raid so I didn't have time to practice at all so I know I probably wasn't maximizing. (Doing the MSx3 MB version)

What I wanted to say though was, I noticed that my sf hits/getting 3 orbs was lining up perfectly with my GCD and when I could cast the next spell. I was probably not queuing the MB as early as I could, but it seems like the slight delay would be worth it for 3 orbs. might just be because of the amount of haste I have makes it work out atm though. For reference I have 2656 haste and I did have DI last night.

[Paskgotsheal]

@Paskgotsheal test it last night like crazy all the time i need to wait 10-15 sec for SF or AA when i try the MS/MB i mean at start the burst is insane but after that i never have AA and SF at the same time ready how much time u need to wait till its start to be a dps lose by delay your CDs for ex one time i had SF ready but AA 15sec on cd or AA ready and SF 50 sec on cd this is the thing i dont get it do i need to wait till i have SF and AA ready to do the MS/MB rotation or just do it when SF is ready because i dont like waiting 10-15 maybe more for cds (usually is a dps lose)

Did you test on a dummy or with full raid buffs?

mainly im thinking 5% crit might make a big difference.


@tsa, mind melt canceled this way you can cast it and mid cast the shadowfiend will hit and cause it to proc, it works perfectly so you don't waste a GCD after a free instant cast.

[kaelix1]

Did you test on a dummy or with full raid buffs?

mainly im thinking 5% crit might make a big difference.


@tsa, mind melt canceled this way you can cast it and mid cast the shadowfiend will hit and cause it to proc, it works perfectly so you don't waste a GCD after a free instant cast.

Dummy only had flask buff