Future Raiding - My Personal Vision.

[Shadzta]

Amidst reading all the different opinions for and against the implementation of LFR and just how raiding has evolved over this last expansion etc. I have being toying with some ideas that I personally think would work out quite well, I'm certainly interested to see how many others think about this thought process.

First off i believe LFR is a step in the right direction, i think has certainly catered to the masses which was its intention so well done. What i dislike about LFR in its current state is the residual side effects it has caused. First and foremost which i believe has kind of been resolved with the addition of class restrictions...is people just needing on anything they can. Obviously this stems from a few bad eggs that start a chain reaction without consequence... " If i can get away with it why not? I don't know these people i don't care if i ninja " etc. Secondly and what i feel is the biggest let down of the LFR is the sense of accomplishment is short lived now. Perhaps i misworded that but the idea i'm getting to is that there are now 3 levels of difficulty for the same raid. While this is good to provide raiding content for all levels of experience, it doesn't really provide much fun and in turn it feels as if most people are now going well i have downed 8/8 LFR and normals and heroics are the same content but tuned harder...BRING ON MORE CONTENT. I have heard from many on forums and in-game that say they cleared LFR easy mode and just don't feel they need to do normals or heroics as they have experienced the content. I agree with this sentiment to be honest LFR being so easy and clearing 8/8 with your eyes closed is perfect for experiencing said content but from my perspective i see it as well i now have experienced 8/8 in the first 2 weeks of patch...however now im going to experience nothing new in the next 8 months before MoP or 3-4 months for the next pre-MoP patch ( if there is even new content in that one which they said no new raid content i believe ).

While it may frustrate some i believe WoW had very good raiding in TBC with multiple tiered raids etc. Even Ulduar while moving away from the tiered raids like BC the heroic mode really felt like new content. Additional content. I reckon a real improve for Raiding could be to go back to BC style of tiered raiding however having the first tier as the LFR option. For example MoP release there are 3 seperate raids. The beginner one " The Kara of MoP " is LFR, its easy it gets cleared by most people and provides said content. While the next raid " the SSC of MoP " could be the normal while the next last raid could be for those that have done the normal raid and heroic is the third raid content. So it is effectively like BC however the LFR can roll forward to up a tier as each new tier is released...

EG:

On release -> 3 raids released like cata did. Raid A LFR
Raid B ( completley different Content ) Is the normals
Raid C ( completely different content again ) is the Heroic modes.

New Patch comes out -> New raid is released etc ( Raid D )
Raid B is now LFR
Raid C is now normals
Raid D is heroics.

Some loop holes i already see with this system is people now " won't be able to experience all content etc " but its a hell of a lot better than BC did for casual i believe...back then to decide to start raiding or to do anything as a casual guild i remember on my realm wasn't pleasant. Simply because to start again you had to go dungeon set kara then ssc and tk etc before you could even THINK abotu touching BT thats assuming you didnt have friends in high places.

I think this system eliminates the drudgery of here is all content in 2 weeks but now do it over again slightly harder...and over again even harder than that. Its constantly fresh...it also has the element of LFR and normals scaling up one tier with each release to make it not impossible to get new characters geared...you can still go here is a new 85 and clear LFR no problem with some normals from " raid c " etc.

What do you guys think? I would also love to see more PvP orientated raids...i would love to incentives to raid cities etc World PvP like each of the major leaders of the Horde and Alliance drop PvP loot and you get off pieces from each district you take over etc...aka Org you take over Valley of strength and a chest appears you get PvP loot, then proceed etc...completely world pvp so horde can defend etc. Obvious issue with that is people will QQ if org got camped constantly...you can put an initiation timer and cooldown period etc...aka orgrimmar just got raided kk you have 2 hours to wreck that shit after that starts a 4 hour cd so people can use AH again etc...and you get lock outs still like raids ... so you have raided Org this week already you gotta wait til raid reset...something like that would be EPIC. really spark World PvP again.

Those are my thoughts i became less organised in my typing towards the end sorry about that.

Don't like them? Sweet share your own opinions! Like em? Awesome tell me what you like and what you'd also like to see! Here to flame me? Well i can't change that, but I don't respond to negative trolling n shit. =)

Keep in mind i also don't want the "blizzard would never do that because" to become a response, the purpose of this is to brainstorm some really top notch ideas for future raiding expanding on perhaps my own ideas or someone else if they come up with some good stuff, and if positive support enfolds we can present some ideas to blizzard within Official forums etc... at least get some ideas flowing whether they implement or not is something different but it broadens the idea and shows them what their audience is wanting and thinking about.

[Grimbold of Skullcrusher]

Well personally I really like the idea but if you think about the current content, LFR ppl would never be able to down something like Sinestra even with DS gear now. This could be fixed by some nerfs but mehh... I really dislike nerfs :-D

[Shadzta]

Well personally I really like the idea but if you think about the current content, LFR ppl would never be able to down something like Sinestra even with DS gear now. This could be fixed by some nerfs but mehh... I really dislike nerfs :-D

Yea thats true...I definitely think its a unique spin on raiding though or at least not unique its just throwing 2 already existing ideas together...just something to stamp out the dullness while still providing something for everyone. Cheers for the response =)...given me more thoughts actually...

[Deleted]

Sounds pretty cool to me, having 3 different sets of raids rather then doing the same shit over and over again. + Everyone can get to see all the content.

[Shadzta]

Sounds pretty cool to me, having 3 different sets of raids rather then doing the same shit over and over again. + Everyone can get to see all the content.

Yea theres definitely going to be some people who would complain regarding perhaps those that clear LFR and some normals can't experience the heroic mode tier...its just they can when they become the new normals...iunno...i reckon it could work to be honest. =)

[Zeta333]

New Patch comes out -> New raid is released etc ( Raid D )
Raid B is now LFR
Raid C is now normals
Raid D is heroics.

Some loop holes i already see with this system is people now " won't be able to experience all content etc " but its a hell of a lot better than BC did for casual i believe...back then to decide to start raiding or to do anything as a casual guild i remember on my realm wasn't pleasant. Simply because to start again you had to go dungeon set kara then ssc and tk etc before you could even THINK abotu touching BT thats assuming you didnt have friends in high places.

This would never work because of that exact statement. Blizzard has chosen which part of the playerbase they want to support the most and it isnt those that do the heroic raids. They see the LFR group as the bigger money makers and will bend over backwards to make sure they are happy at the expense of everything else. Its a good business decision but sucks for those getting shafted.

[Myrkur]

This would never work because of that exact statement. Blizzard has chosen which part of the playerbase they want to support the most and it isnt those that do the heroic raids. They see the LFR group as the bigger money makers and will bend over backwards to make sure they are happy at the expense of everything else. Its a good business decision but sucks for those getting shafted.

Who is getting Shafted? You have only 2 Heroic Morchok kills under your belt. After 5 Weeks you have only completed 13% of the Content that is designed for players of your guilds caliber (based off Realm First! Fall of the Lich King).

I think that is a fine Idea OP, and would I think it would be a good idea if implemented. It has the added benefit of not making the Older Raid Tiers obsolete. Who runs T11 anymore? Noone, because you'd be an idiot to do it more than once right now. Who runs Firelands Normal right now? Noone, because you can get the same or better gear out of the New Heroics.

The hard part in balancing it would come in introducing new 5 man instances, and where to put the Gear level for it. By the end of the Tier, the first LFR Raid will likely be obsolete anyway because of this problem. But I think it's a pretty damn good idea overall. Lets everyone see almost all of the content, gives the highly motivated and organized their sense of superiority in doing Raids other people can't do, and keeps a Variety of raids available for the above average player so they don't get bored doing the same exact dungeon twice a week.

[Gurbz]

This would never work because of that exact statement. Blizzard has chosen which part of the playerbase they want to support the most and it isnt those that do the heroic raids. They see the LFR group as the bigger money makers and will bend over backwards to make sure they are happy at the expense of everything else. Its a good business decision but sucks for those getting shafted.

Very true. On the flip side, I am sure a lot of the LFR crowd felt the same way up until about a month ago. Can't make everyone happy. Blizz can only try to keep as large a group as possible happy at any given time.

The other reason it would never work is that is forgets one aspect of Blizzard's stated design goals. They want people to see the content when it is relevant. Once a new tier of raiding comes out, the previous tier is now obsolete. Granted, that was not true in TBC or Vanilla, but they used different models that came with their own very large problems.

People who want exclusive and/or harder raid tiers that can only be experienced by those who put in the maximum effort will likely never get it unless it becomes a paid standalone zone to justify the development cost, and even then I can I can think of a lot of problems. Otherwise it makes no financial sense to devote the resources necessary to design a full raid tier that only a small percentage of the subscribers will ever set foot in when it is relevant content.

[skipdog172]

This would never work because of that exact statement. Blizzard has chosen which part of the playerbase they want to support the most and it isnt those that do the heroic raids. They see the LFR group as the bigger money makers and will bend over backwards to make sure they are happy at the expense of everything else. Its a good business decision but sucks for those getting shafted.

How exactly are you getting shafted? You raid heroics and are seriously upset at the token system? It clearly wouldn't bother anybody who has raided seriously for any amount of time. I just wish I could possibly understand how you think you are getting shafted.... because of tokens? Or are you upset that you don't get all the LFR loot?

I just really would LOVE to know how you think blizzard is personally screwing you over...

[Kuthumii]

The people that say they did LFR and don't think normal or heroic modes aren't anything new are just whiners. A multitude of games and game genres use the multiple difficulty setting scheme. Look at Halo. Sure, you can beat it on Easy mode. Who couldn't? Can you beat it on Legendary? Now that is an accomplishment. Same with WoW Heroic modes, but in WoW; people refuse to do the higher difficulty settings and claim to have completed the entire game. Someone who didn't beat Halo on Legendary who made that claim would be laughed out of town.

I've raided since Vanilla. I thoroughly enjoyed tBC, WotLK, and Cata. I doubt I'll raid as seriously as I did in Vanilla, tBC, or WotLK ever again so LFR allowed me to see content I wouldn't see; which is win.

I do have an issue with how easy the three new 5 mans are. I ran a few of the early Cata dungeons to help gear a guildie and found myself thinking those early dungeons were more difficult than the 4.3 ones. Baffles me.

I will agree, I wish the raids weren't so short and stuff now days. You go in, kill a few mobs and its boss time. It doesn't feel epic. I don't want trash so hard no one can do it or so much trash it takes 2 hours go get to the fist boss, but come on. I understand in LFR you don't want all that due to time constraints, but perhaps break the raid down further?

TLDR: Raids don't feel as epic as they used to not because of their difficulty but because the bosses are served to you on a silver platter within a short time of being in the instance.

[Shadzta]

Well i did point out i didnt want to see " blizzard won't do this because..." lol but some interesting points have been raised for sure...certainly giving me more to think about...

[Zeta333]

Who is getting Shafted? You have only 2 Heroic Morchok kills under your belt. After 5 Weeks you have only completed 13% of the Content that is designed for players of your guilds caliber (based off Realm First! Fall of the Lich King).

Nice job going through my armoury and making assumptions, i bet i could do the same with yours if you were to link it. My current progression has nothing to do with how i feel on the current state of the game.

Very true. On the flip side, I am sure a lot of the LFR crowd felt the same way up until about a month ago. Can't make everyone happy. Blizz can only try to keep as large a group as possible happy at any given time.

LFR is a extremely dumbed down version of what was allready out there. Nothing was stoping people from doing normals or heroics before. They complained about difficulty because they didnt want to take the effort and try. They dont want to research thier class, look up a fight beforehand or even try to optimize thier gear yet they want to see everything and have all this raid gear. Its a growing problem with games being dumbed down due to people not wanting to put in the effort, looks at games from a few generations ago, i remember having to look up strats for boss's, try to optimize my character and attacks for boss's just to beat them. No boss fights in games [ not just wow] are 10 minutes of RP and mildly interesting fight with no difficulty.

How exactly are you getting shafted? You raid heroics and are seriously upset at the token system?

Where did i say anything about the token system, i like it though id have prefered it to not drop in LFR but it beats half the tier being available from the vender.

TLDR: Raids don't feel as epic as they used to not because of their difficulty but because the bosses are served to you on a silver platter within a short time of being in the instance.

pretty much this, After doing all the fights 95% of the mechanics can be ignored in LFR, You dont need to chase the crystal down on first boss, you can ignore the phase out abilitys on Ultra, you can just let elementium bolt hit on DW. Things that would wipe the raid normaly just get ignored to the point of the boss's being patchwerk.

[Myrkur]

Nice job going through my armoury and making assumptions, i bet i could do the same with yours if you were to link it. My current progression has nothing to do with how i feel on the current state of the game.

You stated that the implementation of content directed toward people with either limited time to play, inability to commit to a schedule, or overall underskilled is taking away from other players. Who are these other players getting Shafted? I assumed you were talking about players like yourself, as the tone I read your post makes me think that you believe the LFR takes away from Highly skilled and highly comitted people. It sounds like you are one of the people that believe the LFR takes dev time away from making heroic content and therefore shortens it, but you've only completed 13% of it so far.

As far as I see it, noone is getting Shafted because of LFR. You obviously feel different, but yet don't say who is getting shafted.

[Mammoon]

This makes me sad...
because I know it will never happen.

[Grogo]

This is an excellent idea. I love it.

[Zeta333]

You stated that the implementation of content directed toward people with either limited time to play, inability to commit to a schedule, or overall underskilled is taking away from other players. Who are these other players getting Shafted? I assumed you were talking about players like yourself, as the tone I read your post makes me think that you believe the LFR takes away from Highly skilled and highly comitted people. It sounds like you are one of the people that believe the LFR takes dev time away from making heroic content and therefore shortens it, but you've only completed 13% of it so far.

As far as I see it, noone is getting Shafted because of LFR. You obviously feel different, but yet don't say who is getting shafted.

You hit the nail on the head it does take away from dev time, look at Firelands and this tier, while firelands was much worse this tier isnt much better, 2 of the fights are complete add fights while a third is an add fight with 2 boss's tossed in at the end. Compare this to tier 11 or even ulduar or hell even ICC had more thought put into it. Companys can still make a profit by looking after the dedicated people instead of the casual community, look at eve, while a population around 40k-50k the game has been going for howlong? The expansions are also free and the game only costs 5$. And again my current progression has nothing to do with this as i cant control the amount of people looking for late night guilds so stop bringing it up as its just a way for you to try and pick a fight.

On the note of limited time, thats not a valid excuse, we can clear normal DS in 2 hours and we have a 10 minute break, There are guilds to fit every type of schedule including those with random ones, there are ways to learn about your class fast from videos to written guide to talking to someone skilled. Boss fight strats could not be more easyer to obtain now with Vodka putting strats, tankspot and god knows how many other places. If you want to raid you should put in the effort, if you want raid gear, you should put in the effort. If you absolutely cannot raid then what do you need raid gear for?

[Shadzta]

I agree with Zeta a bit there his last points about raiding and time constraints is good...as i mentioned in regards to providing more content for casuals LFR did wonders it did its job...but i definitely feel raiding should be a activity that is supposed to take some skill and effort to get rewarded for. Maybe if they tried to promote more hardcore servers or something...like differentiate content by server /shrug who knows...its all rather interesting but if things don't change i see the game certainly going stale. If it hasn't already...

[morphling8]

I like it, but honestly you have to realize blizzard will never implement this. They want the mass populace to feel like they are the forefront of raiding, even if they are not. I wish it weren't so.

Also, it really doesn't make much sense when each expansion has 3 raids. I mean, right now is the only time we even have 3 raids out, so LFR would see 1 dungeon : /. Not really sure how you could make that work unless LFR sat on T11 entire expac, normal sat on T11 for 2 patches, and so on. Then you have the problem at the end of the tier that the LFR has only see 1/3 the content. I don't think there is any real way to address this that won't either upset all the heroic people (the top 5%), or the mass populace, the other 95%.

[fizzbob]

LFR is aimed at the lazy players. the bads. the people who don't care about the time they spend in the game.

those people are not committed long-term to wow and it's exactly why blizz has lost 6300 subs per day for the past year.

sony did this with EQ, decided they were too popular to screw up and they screwed up, EQ's popularity went from #1 to who cares in less than a year.

right now, wow is not the "hottest game" and has lost subs faster than any MMO ever has over the course of a year. you can't keep the bad around for very long because they do not care and LFR is meant for them. it's nearly a waste of space.

it should have been a learning tool with no loot. instead it's just another mode that is a virtual loot pinata. it's not fun, not a challenge and has no appeal to people who know why they gem INT instead of SPI

wow can't sustain more than 5-7million long term. they either have to appeal to that addicted core of players now AND later or they will sink trying to keep the bads around while pissing off the people who are actually attached to their toon

most of what they've worked on for the past 36 months has proven to be a huge failure. 6300 lost subs PER DAY is undeniable proof.

spending much time working on LFR is just going to produce more of the same.

---------- Post added 2011-12-30 at 09:50 PM ----------

I agree with Zeta a bit there his last points about raiding and time constraints is good...as i mentioned in regards to providing more content for casuals LFR did wonders it did its job...but i definitely feel raiding should be a activity that is supposed to take some skill and effort to get rewarded for. Maybe if they tried to promote more hardcore servers or something...like differentiate content by server /shrug who knows...its all rather interesting but if things don't change i see the game certainly going stale. If it hasn't already...

casuals are not bads. bads are lazy, casuals just don't have a ton of time. casuals can and do raid normally once a week, there are plenty of guilds out there that fit casuals.

LFR isn't for casuals, they're in DS normal and probably farming 8/8 already while working on heroic modes. bads will never go 8/8 normal and will be geared up by LFR

[Osmeric]

They tried multi-tier progression like this in Cataclysm. It failed. Remember how T11 was nerfed in 4.2? Very few people did it after it was nerfed.