My names Exordin, and I'm a Shockaholic.

[Grimbold of Skullcrusher]

Again, what's your point? The only reason I used those in my argument is because you keep saying making a new spec is hard, requires a lot of time for balancing etc. And those points that I made aren't exactly easy to implement either.

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 07:26 AM ----------



Who says it has to be under the Holy tree?

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 07:27 AM ----------



Who says it has to be under the Holy tree?

There aint gonna be 4th tree. What tree would you like to get rid of? Protection? Ret? Those specs are played by tons of ppl, do you think it would please them?

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 08:33 AM ----------

Druids have a 4th spec already bear+cat in one. i ment my head feels like derp because of the flaming. i see people saying they want want want...

Now i ment no disrespect when i said complaining; however if you truely want this i have no right to stop you asking blizz, but i retain my right to say that i feel the resouces at blizz could be better spent elsewhere.

Ayea, druids has 4th specs(feral tanky or dps) BUT... both of those are designed around same stat = agility, and both of them are melee only spec. I do not think there is a solution how to make this work for paladin. Protection's damage is based on strength and vengeance and retribution is based on strength - that would make things so much more complicated then druid feral tank/dps spec.

[Deleted]

Druids have a 4th spec already bear+cat in one. i ment my head feels like derp because of the flaming. i see people saying they want want want...

Now i ment no disrespect when i said complaining; however if you truely want this i have no right to stop you asking blizz, but i retain my right to say that i feel the resouces at blizz could be better spent elsewhere.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree then. I believe that making a 4th spec (and proposing Exorcist to be paladin's) is a good new feature for the xpac after MoP or the one after that and you believe the time/resources are best put into making a new class/another feature.

[Deleted]

Ayea, druids has 4th specs(feral tanky or dps) BUT... both of those are designed around same stat = agility, and both of them are melee only spec. I do not think there is a solution how to make this work for paladin. Protection's damage is based on strength and vengeance and retribution is based on strength - that would make things so much more complicated then druid feral tank/dps spec.

Shockadins could use int plate, and they are asking for a 4th spec. I'm not saying it cant happen, infact i encourage all shockadins who decided the moment i made an ill worded comment about shockadins to go and plead blizz to make your fairy tale spec. Please do, because then this thread will disapear forever and i can see schockadins as a real thing, not just a relic of old.

[Deleted]

There aint gonna be 4th tree. What tree would you like to get rid of? Protection? Ret? Those specs are played by tons of ppl, do you think it would please them?

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 08:33 AM ----------



Ayea, druids has 4th specs(feral tanky or dps) BUT... both of those are designed around same stat = agility, and both of them are melee only spec. I do not think there is a solution how to make this work for paladin. Protection's damage is based on strength and vengeance and retribution is based on strength - that would make things so much more complicated then druid feral tank/dps spec.

What makes you so sure that there won't/can't be a 4th spec? I've never said that they should remove another spec have I? My original proposal was for "Exorcist" and healing to be under the same tree like feral tanks/dps are at the moment, but since Blizz is going away from that route my next proposal was to have a 4th spec.

You didn't really read through the thread did you? >.> I never said "Exorcists" will wear strength gears. They can share gears with Holy pallies since they're based on holy spells for damage. The same way boomkins share some gears with resto druids, ele shamans with resto shamans and shadow priests with their healing spec counterparts.

[Deleted]

I guess we just have to agree to disagree then. I believe that making a 4th spec (and proposing Exorcist to be paladin's) is a good new feature for the xpac after MoP or the one after that and you believe the time/resources are best put into making a new class/another feature.

Ahh, glad that banters over XD well good luck i guess :P as the comment above i beleave, if its made then i have no problem with it, Probs cus i'm tired that i was a lil hostile.

Honestly though i encourage a sort of e-petition to be sent to blizz, so if its made i cant complain since it was there choice based on there decision. :P

[Deleted]

Ahh, glad that banters over XD well good luck i guess :P as the comment above i beleave, if its made then i have no problem with it, Probs cus i'm tired that i was a lil hostile.

Honestly though i encourage a sort of e-petition to be sent to blizz, so if its made i cant complain since it was there choice based on there decision. :P

I have to apologise if I sound a bit snappy or went too personal. Trying to cap conquest points with 1500ms latency does that to you, you can see it from my multiple double posts >.>. I don't mind a new class or whatever other cool features at all, but I believe that the current WoW classes have a lot of potential in terms of concepts and niche to fill.

[Deleted]

I think it's a wonderfull idea.
I played a bit of shockadin back in BC it was awesome. It had it's up and downs but it was overall good.

I want an Exorscist tree!!

[zcks]

The ranged offensive holy damage role would be a truly great thing to see, sadly it will never happen.

This is because of 2 things

1: They refuse to give the class a stance/presence/form system, a tool/mechanic they already have admitted is a necessity for every class to have balanced flexibility if they can fulfill 2 or more roles.

2: They refuse to bring paladins up to par vs others in terms of how many offensive tools/abilities they have which makes it a necessity for many of the tools to be shared between ret & prot which in turn further increases the problems caused by problem #1.

These problems are also getting worse in MOp because the vast majority of the talents are rehashed versions of already existing ones, new purely defensive talents which are of little use for offensive play style or are poor substitutes for ones available at base to other classes.

So yes it would be awesome if ret were to get increased ranged potential or if a 4th spec were to be created as an "exorcist" spec but sadly it will never happen

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 02:59 AM ----------

Because holy paladin is a healer spec. Do we really want to have a healers spec which can also do competitive dps? The answer is no... When I imagine it would happen, I can already hear the cry of masses about it :-)

That doesn't mean it couldn't be balanced.

There are 3 ways to do it.

1: Give the class a stance/presence/form system so that it cannot fulfill multiple roles at the same time. (something blizzard already has admitted is a necessity but has not done yet for any number of unmentioned speculative reasons)

2: Increase ret's ranged offensive potential to make it more of an "exorcist" spec. (as a plus this not only fills the itch for a shockdin spec but helps to reduce the problem ret has with kiting & CC spam while moving away tactics without giving it a copy paste of other classes abilities)

3: Create a new spec built specifically for the role.

Numbers 1 and 2 would be by far the easier of the group and would not require that much work but sadly unless blizzard has a serious change of heart about doing honest hard work on the ret & prot specs instead of bandaid fixes.

[Malthanis]

When dealing with blizzard & anything concerning ret paladins its best to make your complaints/worries Loud & clear at an early stage because if you don't your likely to end up with a f#cked up spec or class & them completely unwilling to fix the core problems unless they have adverse effects on other classes as we have been shown time & time again.

Again, this isn't a thread about Retribution.

I'm just trying to make more people aware of that fact because the more people who become aware of it the more likely our voices are to be heard by someone who can actually do something to change it.
But then again considering most of the people who can do something were hand picked by GC we are probably up shit creak without a paddle & should just give up & reroll if we ever want a spec that is well designed and fine tuned.

If you truly think that the entire class design team is handpicked by Greg Street, and that the paladin design team must specifically have a pure hatred for paladins, then you really don't seem to understand business. I well and truly doubt that any person on that design team has the required level of loathing that would put either their job or the company's profit in jeopardy.

1: They refuse to give the class a stance/presence/form system, a tool/mechanic they already have admitted is a necessity for every class to have balanced flexibility if they can fulfill 2 or more roles.

Not necessary. Shamans seem to do just fine without any form of stance mechanic, and they're arguably the closest in design terms to the paladin class.

2: They refuse to bring paladins up to par vs others in terms of how many offensive tools/abilities they have which makes it a necessity for many of the tools to be shared between ret & prot which in turn further increases the problems caused by problem #1.

Debatable. Admittedly, our toolkit is rather anemic in comparison to other abilities, but our abilities tend to pack more punch because of all the effects layered in to them Tank debuffs, for example, are applied almost entirely in a passive manner from abilities that are in our primary rotation.

These problems are also getting worse in MOp because the vast majority of the talents are rehashed versions of already existing ones, new purely defensive talents which are of little use for offensive play style or are poor substitutes for ones available at base to other classes.

So yes it would be awesome if ret were to get increased ranged potential or if a 4th spec were to be created as an "exorcist" spec but sadly it will never happen.

Saying that things are "getting worse" in MoP is a strawman of the highest caliber. The game hasn't even reached alpha stage (that we know of), and the talents and abilities that are listed on the MoP talent calculator are constantly in flux.

Also, I've learned that in the development business, you never speak in terms of absolutes. Saying that something will "never happen" is, at best, a logical fallacy.

2: Increase ret's ranged offensive potential to make it more of an "exorcist" spec. (as a plus this not only fills the itch for a shockdin spec but helps to reduce the problem ret has with kiting & CC spam while moving away tactics without giving it a copy paste of other classes abilities)

I was actually toying with this idea before MoP was announced. It would've been a similar setup to Feral's current state, with a ranged caster DPS along with the current Retribution setup. However, after MoP released...

3: Create a new spec built specifically for the role.

...I released that this would be the better option, as it would allow for custom tailoring of what abilities an Exorcist spec would require.

[Tullkas]

lol, ok I finaly got it. I was confused from OPs replies, I should probably read the whole stuff more carefully but thanks to Malthanis I finaly got it.

1. This whole thing is a discussion about a dream to have 4th functional midle range caster dps spec with some melee abilities like shockadin once was, but with little or situational healing.
2. It wont be shockadin as holy shock is for holy only and its not necessary even in this new idea. It wont be realy Exorcist either as exorcism is in ret tree and its proc, but temp name for a spec is Exorcist . New spell toolkit and rotation need to be created.
3. You base your hopes on fact that druid is getting 4th tree. You admit that that would prepare a ground for other classes 4th trees.

Looks nice and interesting on paper guys but lets be realistic. Maybe this would be possible in case this is just a PvE game or if they will separate PvE systems from PvP or remove small scale PvP (even 10v10). Game got big class/spec/comps balance issues and they are not able to solve them for a long time. New monk class will only add to that. Hopes for 4th specs are too high and I dont see it realistic. Wont happen in MoP, wont happen in expansion after MoP imo.

Lets fine tune, balance and make enjoyable what we have first. Im more opened to making a holy paladin spec more offensive oriented (same for other healers), I would sell my bubble for that anytime. Im afraid many ppl would cry that they liked the defensive style and dont want to play in disc priest style.

[khatsoo]

The problem lies in the guaranteed crit against certain types of enemies.
I also quadrupled damage done while leveling if I popped CDs and spammed exorcism on an undead target (was it fun or engagin though? not).
A consistent dps spec relies on many more things and you can't say now just the "lightform" argument, etc...
I still talented the mana reduced exorcism with my Holy Paladin to dps sometimes (even more if undead) just for fun/help/utility while not really healing hard, but not for an engaging caster dps class.

[Malthanis]

Lets fine tune, balance and make enjoyable what we have first.

Oh, I agree completely with this. The whole idea of adding a fourth spec to class that don't have one would require everything else to be relatively balanced in the first place. However, I do believe that the new class and spec design with MoP will make that easier, which means it's within the realms of probability for all classes to have a 4th spec eventually.

[Deleted]

Citation needed.

I find it extremely hard to believe you topped charts as holy in any of those expacs, except for perhaps extremely short term fights in BC.

If they ever split trees again, I would look forward to a shockadin spec, however balancing would probably be atrocious.. Considering you're in plate and would be ranged.

I play a Holy DPS Paladin, I topped DPS through Vanilla dungeons, then BC dungeons, then Wrath dungeons through Cataclysm. Unfortunately my DPS halted at Cataclysm dungeons, which forced me to go ret.

Is there a learn to read issue?

[zcks]

If you truly think that the entire class design team is handpicked by Greg Street, and that the paladin design team must specifically have a pure hatred for paladins, then you really don't seem to understand business. I well and truly doubt that any person on that design team has the required level of loathing that would put either their job or the company's profit in jeopardy.

Not necessary. Shamans seem to do just fine without any form of stance mechanic, and they're arguably the closest in design terms to the paladin class.

Debatable. Admittedly, our toolkit is rather anemic in comparison to other abilities, but our abilities tend to pack more punch because of all the effects layered in to them Tank debuffs, for example, are applied almost entirely in a passive manner from abilities that are in our primary rotation.

On the first part, I never said that the entire class design team was handpicked by GC. Many of the more influential ones & ones in charge were however due to the fact that more then half the original class designers quit & left for arena.net after he was put in charge.

On the second part, true Enhancement shaman are much closer to paladins then most specs design wise. They however have a much larger toolkit for the role of DPS, a toolkit I might add which includes a pretty decent amount of ranged abilities as well as decent anti kiting tools which for the most part make up for the lack of instant gap closers.
The main reason why shaman don't absolutely require a stance type system however is because they cannot generate their maelstrom charges at range & because their off healing is far weaker then what paladins can do due to not having talents like selfless healer & last word. (this may be lessened somewhat for ret in MOP but given the sheer amount of defensive talents & the lack of offensive alternatives it could very well end up worse).

On the last part, that is one of the main problems with the paladin class as a whole (at least as far as ret & prot are concerned). Because the amount of offensive tools is anemic abilities must be shared a great deal across specs which in turn leads to too much importance & too many effects being loaded onto each ability. It also causes the problem where you cannot change an ability without having to back track & change it again because it could end up causing adverse effects across multiple specs.

Lastly on the other things we can just agree to disagree. You may not like many/all of my opinions but due to the past actions of many of the higher up's at blizzard they could quite possibly be true because there is plenty of evidence to point to people in charge of the specs design (management officials) having at the very least serious issues with arrogance & simply not caring enough about the finished product to try new ideas and address core issues.

[Gamdwelf]

I currently have an 85 exorcist, and it really kinda does feel like its own spec right now except for the fact that it does very little damage compared to other damage dealers, if you want, I can put some numbers up on WoL, and post it here, showing exactly how it works currently, and show what it can currently do. Its not that bad, when I've gone in LFR, I always beat some baddies with my spec.

Heres an Armory of my guy

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ennis/advanced

[Deleted]

^ Impressive.

Though I don't think you're quite there yet. Stat priority would be Int -> Haste -> Crit -> Spirit, without touching mastery at all. I know you've tried to keep to it, so really good job

Can't wait to see how you progress on this, so good luck.

Just a tip, if it's not intrusive or anything:
Try to find a 1h, back and rings without spirit, (Keep the Tyrandes doll until an upgrade, drop the core for the new VP spirit trinket (Reflection of Light))

[Gamdwelf]

No, ive found you need a reasonable amount of spirit, just so you don't oom. Although, it helped when they changed Judegements of the pure.

[Deleted]

That shouldn't be an issue with Glyph of Divine Plea, JotP and a stack of Mystic Potions.

Sides, the spirit you would be trading off is countered with Reflection of Light, which you really want for the use effect. Which means you'd only lose 288 spirit, gaining more crit and haste. Though it would be annoying if you're strapped for gold, and just bordering 100k mana.

[Deleted]

It is more than possible for them to implement in MoP, considering DPS specs will no longer get a toolbox of heals.

Exorcism as filler.
Holy Shock stays the same, used off cooldown. Does more damage and less healing. Grants 1 HP.
Judgement is used off cooldown, increases the critical chance of your next damaging spell by 25%.
Seal of Truth is used, and applies Censure every attack.
Holy Wrath is removed from Holy, and becomes an AoE ranged attack. Grants 1 HP when it hits 4 or more targets.
Inquisition is used.
Guardian of Ancient Kings replicates the next 5 damaging spells and splashes 50% of the damage to all targets within x yards.

Would be a great band aid for not giving us Pandas.

[Gamdwelf]

Yeah its pretty bad right now, I'm Lennis but here it is.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/p...um/damageDone/