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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himora View Post
    what? thats there "biggest" defence, i backstab the amount of a shield which is generally around 30k, then its a 15sec cool down while i eat them to 0hp
    Hardly their biggest defence. IF a shield is only 30k, thats just like a small 30k, instant heal, which they could get on an 8 second CD if they went holy (though admittedly that relies on a crit heal).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by rewn View Post
    Hardly their biggest defence. IF a shield is only 30k, thats just like a small 30k, instant heal, which they could get on an 8 second CD if they went holy (though admittedly that relies on a crit heal).
    remember i play a rogue, they have a 0 chance of getting a channeled heal off, they will need to rely on renew, prayer of mending & Desperate Prayer (2min cd) during that 15seconds, unless they want to blow all there cd's..

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himora View Post
    remember i play a rogue, they have a 0 chance of getting a channeled heal off, they will need to rely on renew, prayer of mending & Desperate Prayer (2min cd) during that 15seconds, unless they want to blow all there cd's..
    We could argue this all day but I dont want to derail the topic But being on topic, people are really exaggerating and its not nearly as bad as people are making out. And again, I think most people would prefer they spent time balancing the max level than balancing 84 levels which in the end, dont really matter.

  4. #24
    dunno about you, but i have a 70 rogue twink, yes it hits like a truck, but so does everyone else in that twink bracket.

    disc priest shields are enormous, ret pallies can full heal with ONE cast and if you cant heal/bubble/cloak, one set of lock dots kill you

    dont even mention frost mages, just dont

    just be glad they fixed the blood dk faceroll trucks and now theres one less juggernaut to deal with

  5. #25
    In Mists they are both giving us resilience passively as we level, and reducing the weapon % damage on a lot of strikes to lower damage it at lower levels. So wait until then I guess.

  6. #26
    Herald of the Titans Theodon's Avatar
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    The whole "wait until next expansion" is an echo from the last expansion. There's dramatic changes in MoP, but health as well as damage will be toned down, so they will likely have the same % range to balance in terms of damage, and Blizzard have shown that they really can't do it.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by rewn View Post
    We could argue this all day but I dont want to derail the topic But being on topic, people are really exaggerating and its not nearly as bad as people are making out.
    Ofcourse it's not that bad. You are playing a Rogue YOURSELF.

    Dont be stupid. It IS bad.
    El Psy Congroo

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanggaxx View Post
    Ofcourse it's not that bad. You are playing a Rogue YOURSELF.

    Dont be stupid. It IS bad.
    This is my second rogue and will by my 15th lvl 85. I don't hold any bias for any class. It's not nearly as bad as the OP or anyone else in this thread has made it out to be.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by sillabear View Post
    In Mists they are both giving us resilience passively as we level, and reducing the weapon % damage on a lot of strikes to lower damage it at lower levels. So wait until then I guess.
    I fear that the passive resilience could work against us atleast at 70; might end up with the situation where any class can run full pve then not just rouges.
    But the dmg scaling change should help.

  10. #30
    Mechagnome Thompson's Avatar
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    Low level WoW is balanced (lol) around players without heirlooms.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    I think Blizzard are trying to do something about this in MoP, both with inherent base resilience for characters and a redistribution of how damage is dealt (hence the “nerfs” on the latest talent calculator).

    Put simply, I think they’re trying to correct it.
    I doubt it.

    Sub Rogues are still going to have armor pen at level 20 even though they don't need it for anything.
    http://www.heroicstrike.org/ - Goodnight, sweet prince

    Melee isn't awful for Challenge Modes; you are. Melee players are a liability for the windows of time in which a tank keeps an enemy mob faced towards them, resulting in an exorbitant loss of damage or death. Melee players are a liability for people who keep rooting mobs next to them. Melee are a liability to a healer that cannot heal.

  12. #32
    High Overlord Zahgurim's Avatar
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    i do not know if it has already been stated and i am beating a dead horse or not but blizzard has stated that they have been looking at the dmg values of <85 abilities. Also that we should see a change with MoP.

  13. #33
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
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    Doesn't change the fact that Rogues are still going to have armor pen at level 20, which they don't need for anything.

    but nnnnohoho, it would be too OP for Warriors to get Colossus Smash at level 20. They have to wait until level 81.

    Game isn't going anywhere.
    http://www.heroicstrike.org/ - Goodnight, sweet prince

    Melee isn't awful for Challenge Modes; you are. Melee players are a liability for the windows of time in which a tank keeps an enemy mob faced towards them, resulting in an exorbitant loss of damage or death. Melee players are a liability for people who keep rooting mobs next to them. Melee are a liability to a healer that cannot heal.

  14. #34
    The Patient EdisonTrent's Avatar
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    I can say from experience that it isn't just Rogues, every class has a way to burst someone down within a few seconds or less.
    Holy Paladins, of all things, were ridiculously effective in the lower level brackets for a while due to exorcism, which dealt a not-unreasonable amount of damage and they had great healing to boot, the other healers are similar though not quite as powerful as H Paladins were.

    Hunters are basically ranged rogues, and if you're unlucky enough to step into one's range you may as well kiss your ass goodbye, as you're very unlikely to escape the constant concussive shots with your low level ability repertoire.

    The other melee classes are arguably even more powerful than rogues, damage-wise with the only proviso being that they cannot stealth right up to you (with the exception of druids, but they lack their Ambush equivalent for a while).

    And finally, the other ranged classes, especially those with dots, will likely drain your entire healthbar over the course of 30 seconds or so, which can be agonizing if you can't cleanse them or have someone who can around. They also have some pretty powerful burst, and mages and priests get a shield which scales well enough to negate most burst damage. Warlocks, despite their high damage, seem to get the short end of the stick at lower levels, however.

    Nerfing only a few classes would be a mistake, the problem is endemic to every class, in varying degrees, in low level PVP.

  15. #35
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enamy View Post
    i am a dedicated 70 twink player myself, and with knowledge about pretty much all the classes at those levels i can tell you that yes, there is no balance between classes. above 2.2 arena rating you only meet the best classes (not a warrior in sight up there, ill tell you that much). some classes have just insane burst damage. rogues, frost mages, prot (!) paladins (even without vengeance) are some of the classes/specs that stand out. warriors, warlocks, boomkins, and a variety of other classes/specs do not just suffer on lack of burst damage, but also on survivability. from 70 and below, all PvP damage/healing is completely out of scale compared to your HP. example: on my mage i have 15 k HP buffed in arena. 500 resi (bout 35 % dmg reduce) and shields for 8 + 2 k (ice barrier + mana shield). two ice blocks. in shatters i can still crit for 7 + 5 k frostbolt + ice lance on targets with 500 + resi. this makes mages avery good pvp class on 70. rogues can crit about 6-7 k ambush with 6-7 k eviscerates. they have a shadow dance (spam ambush) every 1 min, and two resets (vanish + prep vanish), and also cheat death. this makes them viable because they are classes that can survive a 1shot-burst from other classes. warriors on the other hand, have no hard resets, no heavy burst damage, and lack of cc. this makes them BAD in lower level PvP.
    for healing, it is the same. a priest penance heals for 4k x3, wich is 12 k. so a full penance, even non crit, can top you up easily. if we compare this to 85 pvp, a mage shatter with CDS will do about 25+20 k on a full resi target. this is still just 35-40 % of your max HP. on level 70, a mage shatter for 7+5 k is 12 k, and if you have 14 k hp, that is more than 80 % of your total HP. some healers are more powerfull aswell. resto druids are probablly the worst healer class of the 4 available ones, simply because you only have 1 fast/instant-i-am-gonna-top-you-up heal. paladins can basically top a person up with holy shock or word of glory, shamans can do 50 % of your HP with one riptide, and priests can put an 8k shield on you, with a 7 k prayer of mending. druids have to keep hot up on a target at all times, so they are easy to counter. if a druid has lifebloom + rejuv on their dps target, one can just swap to the druid, cause he has to use 4 globals just to get up his hots up on himself. he has no flash heal, only 1 instant heal every 15 secs. a mage or rogue can kill you in 2-3 globals. on level 85, a priest penance isnt 12 k, or 80 % of your hp, its 3x 12k, wich is roughly 35-40 % of your HP. nuff said

    so the issue is really that players abilities are in general much more powerfull than the health pool of the players. baseline resillience is probably not going to fix this issue unless it means 70-80 % damage reduction against players (healers on lower levels are generally filled to the max with resi, over 50 % damage reduce, due to their heals being able to top up their partners anyway). but this also means healers will have to get an insane healing nerf. one cant have a partner doing 2 k ambush crits on an enemy target when their healer can outheal the damage with a renew?

    as you can see, this is not only a rogue issue. if all damage/healing for players in the 70s and below were reduced 50-80 %, this would be a much more balanced scene. at the moment priests, shammys and pala healers dont even have to cast to outheal a dps if they can LoS/rangerun the dps every now and then.

    so basically, as it is today, it is like "can i survive his burst? and if i can, will he be able to survive mine?". and by burst, i mean 2-3 globals or getting a player from 100% to 0 % HP in the 7 secs their healers are sheeped/sapped etc
    I agree with you, they should nerf heals and burst dmg at that level abit atleast.
    Why are people whining about rogues? Mages & priests are most op classes at 70lvl... u cant win good disc priest in a duel, myself i won every class on duel even the good mages (fully twinked troll mage was only one who could beat me, cus racial gave him op burst).

  16. #36
    Brewmaster Shon237's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedleyazg View Post
    They're fixing this in MoP.
    Hmm been awhile since I played a rogue at 70 (mabye 4-6 months?). It was a lil bit harder at 70 because you actually had to build combo points for stuns/prep and such (playing sub rogue). Lower brackets all you do is spam abush and kill peeps. At 60 and 70 frikin frost mages were gods because of ice barrier glyph puls intellect/spell power I believer basically doubled health with lik 6-10k ice barriers. I played 80 for the longest and it was a completer screw up there.

    Anyways all low level is broke. They say they will fix in MoP.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-04 at 04:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    Hmm been awhile since I played a rogue at 70 (mabye 4-6 months?). It was a lil bit harder at 70 because you actually had to build combo points for stuns/prep and such (playing sub rogue). Lower brackets all you do is spam abush and kill peeps. At 60 and 70 frikin frost mages were gods because of ice barrier glyph puls intellect/spell power I believer basically doubled health with lik 6-10k ice barriers. I played 80 for the longest and it was a completer screw up there.

    Anyways all low level is broke. They say they will fix in MoP.
    Someone talked about every class. I disagree on that notion. Try playing a lock its ridiculous. No way will all you dots plus a good fear/life drain will make you come out on top at the low levels. Poor locks.

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