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  1. #61
    Zul'Gurub was a 20 man raid and I never heard anyone complain about that.

  2. #62
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    They should really just make 25 man viable instead. 10 man feels too small, and 15 will still be too small. I'd say 20 man MINIMUM if they're to find one permanent raid size.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by wariofan1 View Post
    They should really just make 25 man viable instead. 10 man feels too small, and 15 will still be too small. I'd say 20 man MINIMUM if they're to find one permanent raid size.
    25 does not work well with 10.
    That is one additional issue causing -under the given system- 25s to perish.

    Even if they seperate the locks then you would have the following problems:
    A 25 man guild downsizing to 10 would have to leave people out since 3 groups are usualy not posible mainly because of lack of tanks.
    If you are doing 10 mainly, and you re willing to upsize to experience 25s as well, now that seperate locks are available, there is no direct upsizing. You could manage to form a second group but still people are missing.

    10 and 25 dont fit. That is a problem that accombanies this model ever since it was first introduced in TBC.

    In previous page, i posted my thoughts on the matter.
    Three ways could work much better.

    1) A 12/24 system with shared content, shared or seperate locks, and seperate achievements.
    2) A single size model, with either 15, 18, or 20 people as the given number.
    3) A 10/20 system with different content for each size.

    I mentioned roughly the reasons that those would work better than the current system.

    I sugest to think out of the box for a bit.
    10/25 is the box, and it is not functional, we should think of ways out of it.

  4. #64
    yes for 15mans but i would rather see 10 and 25 not part of the same lockout

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Cursingmonk View Post
    There has been a lot of talk about 6 man dungeons, 12 and 24 man raids. These sizes would allow Blizzard to have an easier time tuning certain fights and allow more diversity in 10 man as well as faster dungeon que times. This is something Blizz would consider, unlikely that they will bottleneck us into a 15 man raid.
    That would be honestly great. I've also thought that 15 man/30 man raids would be a great split. 15 man feels like enough people to easily have all raid buffs and be big enough to feel like an actual raid, and with the 15/30 split you can have a perfect loot drop ratio. 3 for 15 man, 6 for 30 man. This could also be applied to the 12/24 split. I've always thought the 10/25 seemed like an odd ratio split.

    Unfortunately, I think it's too late in WoW's lifespan for them to mess around with raid sizes, as a blue stated already if they'd thought more about 15 man back in BC, they may have done it, but now it's probably too late to change.
    "I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord. I'm from the planet Gallifrey in the Constellation of Kasterborous. I'm 903 years old and I'm the man who is gonna save your lives and all 6 billion people on the planet below. You got a problem with that?"

    -The Doctor, Voyage of the Damned

  6. #66
    I think 15 man raids would be grate. I think 20 could work as well, personaly I strive for 25 man raiding, but I would rather take 15 man raids and one raid size than todays mess. They need to fix this two difrent sizes.

    And It's never to late, just implement it for mop raids and be done whit it, I say. Doubt they are far along whit raid balance any way. And all the good guilds are recruting for MOP now any way so that would leave the progresion orienttated 10 man guilds able to adapt inn time.

  7. #67
    Pandaren Monk Sylreick's Avatar
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    15 mans? No thank you. Means my guild would have to go on a recruiting spree inviting mass amounts of players to find 5 that consistently play and know their class. Hasn't worked for 25 mans we try to set up, most likely wouldn't work for the 15 mans. 10 is and has been fine so far.

  8. #68
    I would prefer 15 man to be honest. It's easier to balance a raid around one size and it allows for all buffs to be acquired.

  9. #69
    For my guild a change to 15 man would be great, as that is roughly the amount of regular signups we get - all for it! And it would put an end to the moaning about difficulty differences and remove the need for Blizzard to balance everything five times.

  10. #70
    Grunt
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    I cant say i wouldnt like it, but i really enjoy kindof the chaos of 25m raiding

  11. #71
    I generally prefer smaller raids (feels like a more cozy group and other reasons), though I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to seeing some 15m raids and maybe even a return of 20m raids (though would prefer the 20m ones have a 10m counterpart still :P).
    It's LeviOsa, not LeviosAR!

  12. #72
    I could live with the 20m platform sounds a lot better to me then 15m raids I prefer the bigger raids over the smaller raids anyday.

  13. #73
    I really enjoy 10 man raiding way more than 25 man raiding. In 25 I have never felt part of a true team and thus each kill really seemed to be more about overpowering the boss than actually doing the fight proper and earning the victory. Also 10 man has way more of a social aspect to me. In my opinion 15 man as single raid format would be perfect. It would give blizzard more time to work on more bosses and better bosses, it would put everyone on an equal level and would finally end the endless whining of 25-man raiders wanting better loot on top of their current benefits.

  14. #74
    My preference on size is rather odd.

    I would prefer ANYTHING that is more functional than what we have today!

    And that would be about ANYTHING they can chose BESIDES what we have now :P

  15. #75
    I wouldn't.

    If they are going to change the raid size, imho the only really viable options are 10/20 or 6/12/24.

    That said, 25m raids forever! (unless they re-introduce 40 mans! <3).
    Gertrude of Aurora, possibly the best 3 day raiding guild in the world!

  16. #76
    Yep, 10/20 and 12/24 would work much better than 10/25 at any given time!

    As i said pretty much ANYTHING that makes sence (an 11/27 model doesnt make sence at all for examble) would work better than 10/25, this combination of numbers is so odd to begin with, that anything can beat it :P.

    What 25 people raiders and 10 people raiders always seems to miss in Cataclysm, is that the system was not supposed to be about 10 only or 25 only.
    It was supposed to be about both 10 and 25.
    But because those 2 don't fit, the system will never work well.

    The pure fact is that a 25 man guild must bench people to downsize to 10.
    And the 10 man guild trying to upsize has to bench people till they have that idiot half raid group missing complete.

    With 10/20 or 12/24 upsizing and downsizing is significantly EASIER.
    With 12 people the small raid will still be able to include ALL classes after monks are added!
    With groups of 6 people, the tank+healer in the core group drops from 40% of the group to 33% of the group (2/5 =40% 2/6=33%).
    In 25s right now to keep the 40% ratio you need 10 people. You never have tanks+healer=10 in 25.
    33% of 24 is 8 people. And usually you will have 7-8 people doing tank and healer job amongst 24.
    So better scaling for large groups is amongst the + of swaping to 12/24 from 10/25
    Then you have the loot. Both 10/20 and 12/24 can assure that you have direct upscaling of loot to have excactly the same ammount of tokens and normal gear per person.

    I had an idiot at some point saying "yea right, removing one person from 25 and adding 2 people to 10 would solve the problems"

    As you may see, swapping from 10/25 to 12/24 is a lot more than this stupid conclusion that guy reached.

    As for 15 mans? As a single size system, 15(3X5) or especially 18(3X6) would be the optimum numbers.
    As a part of a dual size system 15 might be a bit too much for small size, not because it is so big, but because to have proper scaling the large raids should go to 30 people!

  17. #77
    I'd feel like we're 11 people short for Panda's!!!!

    NightLords, Cata USA ranked 9th LFM for Panda's.

    PST for details!!!

  18. #78
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Frankly, I'd be for elimination of 10-man raids before eliminating 25-man. If we're going to argue about a one-size-for all raid, it should be 25. 15 is some 'acceptable' thing for many, but I don't get the same buzz from anything less than 25. Even terrible 25's (LFR) are more entertaining than 10's for me.
    Agreed! There's just not a cozy feeling with 10s.
    If you join a pug from trade where the majority come from the same guild, you can basically hear them trashtalk to you
    If you join a pure pug, you feel like a complete stranger
    If you screw up, the group will most likely wipe. Holding 9 others back isn't nice.
    If you don't pull your weight, you are holding 9 others back. Like a shadowpriest in early Cata/wotlk/BC who had several other high level alts but never played them, had no clue about the shadow spec even though they'd played since fucking BC and didn't even have an offspec!

    But yeah, I'd be willing to give 15m a go, at least. I simply do not want to do 10s. I'm not an active raider, so if I finally do meet the requirements from a trade pug, I have to suck it up with 10m. I don't feel - ever- like I'm in a close-knit group. I just feel very, very uncomfortable.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Steik View Post
    I'm all for 15 man raids. Any chance of a poll?
    A poll would require all posible sizes multipliers of 5 and 6 that are available from 10 to 40. That are 11 choices.

    10,12,15,18,20,24,25,30,35,36,40.

    I don't think that there would be any usefull results with so many choices and there are other questions that should be put under a poll regarding raiding.

    1) Is Single size or dual size your preference?
    2) Shared or different content per size?
    3) 1, 2 or more level of difficulties?

    Basically for one size 15 might look optimum but for dual size, that is not the case.

    Raiding model is a quite complicated thing, with the size being one of the elements to chose only.

    Still when you chose something that doesnt work well, like chosing 10 and 25 for a dual size aproach in raids, you can expect only problems.

  20. #80
    Stood in the Fire Vashi's Avatar
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    I would love to see TBC scenario back just with switching normal / heroic. Strict 10 and 25 mans no any other option.

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