Expertise, really?

[bandet]

I must be missing somthing, why dont you just move behind the target like melle do? as there is no minimum range requirment anymore.

[Aertea]

I must be missing somthing, why dont you just move behind the target like melle do? as there is no minimum range requirment anymore.

Hunters "cast" more than most casters do. Getting in melee is just as much a death sentence as it is for a Mage.

[Atlanis]

I must be missing somthing, why dont you just move behind the target like melle do? as there is no minimum range requirment anymore.

Because we're squishier than a rogue without dodge. We have no defensive cooldowns that allow us to attack while they're active (and can't dodge worth shit, 9% in full PvP gear). If we get out of melee range, we have to run many times farther to get behind someone than the person in melee range has to move to face us.

You know what they should have given us for our level 87 ability? A defensive CD that lets us still deal damage while its active. If we FD, our damage halts until we stand up. If we Det, our damage halts until we cancel it or it wears off. If we Camo (in MoP), our damage halts until we break it or someone else does.

Before anyone compares the new Camo to Vanish, stop and think. Vanish lets rogues use powerful openers (Cheap Shot/Ambush/Garrote), while Camo only lets us run like hell or immediately break it to deal damage again, essentially making it a second (and more powerful) FD that allows us to move while it's active.

[Deleted]

dont know if i missed something but since when does a boss dodge value increase once he turns? that would be parry and shots cannot be parried. the only issues we have with dodge is that ferals and rogues might gain huge dodge values through agility. to me mop is a godsend from a hunters pov.

in pve we get:
selfheal
-15% dmg taken through iron hawk
better scaling through hawk/hunters mark
baseline marked for death
the cool awesome pet stuff like stampede and ferocity specc for my beloved pig
bm viability through ranged kill command/pet aoe
viability of expertise for our specc (yes this is a positive change)
cd free traplauncher

in pvp we get:
baseline -15% dmg, or shorter cd on det
baseline readiness/silencing shot/wyvern sting
stuns
knockbacks
removal of our min range
cd less trap launcher


and alot more i forgot...


seriously, how much more could anyone want... ever?

[asharia]

I would have no problem if they just made our hit cap 15%.

Fuck enh shamans. There, i said it. They can get their expertise from set pieces, weapons and reforges. Its not a issue. I play one at 85, and it is not even close to being a problem, ever.

I dont even care that much about expertise from a pve perspective. Apart from the fact that it makes no sense and its clunky and awkward to gear around.

I will be spamming Blizzard with suggestions to change it, believe me. If they ignore it, then i'm gonna be smart this time and get out before i commit any time and effort into my hunter.

[Deleted]

I must be missing somthing, why dont you just move behind the target like melle do? as there is no minimum range requirment anymore.

I don't see...how would that help about Expertise ?

But yes, Expertise for Hunters is one the stupidest ideas ever.
Imho they should remove Expertise for every one, then every classe gets let's say 15% hit needed.

[Deleted]

I would have no problem if they just made our hit cap 15%.

what's the difference? almost all reforging sites will tell you how to reforge to both caps with minimal dps loss through overcapping. although you might lose like 1-2 stat points i dont see how that would be a major issue.
personally im glad that ill be able to equip and roll on all agility items. to me it's a slap in the face that ill never get my bis because the bis agility ring is far better for every other agility class/specc.

I don't see...how would that help about Expertise ?

But yes, Expertise for Hunters is one the stupidest ideas ever.
Imho they should remove Expertise for every one, then every classe gets let's say 15% hit needed.

blizzard likes the way expertise works for tanks.

[Skygoneblue]

Regarding the whole, "You can dodge an axe, but not a bullet" argument: Dodging an arrow is still way more "realistic" than:

- The whole "auto shot" mechanic which has us firing arrows within milliseconds of our main shots
- Effortlessly hitting a target while running, or flying backwards through the air
- Shooting and hurting things without even using arrows

Lighten up guys. Seriously. Many, MANY voices of reason have explained the reason for the change, and it makes enough sense. Blizzard has given us a ton of quality of life changes in the past, and making one slightly odd change in the name of stat balancing is not the end of the world. It's not the end of pvp, and holy crap, whining on forums isn't going to change anything.

/deal with it glasses 8)

[bandet]

dont know if i missed something but since when does a boss dodge value increase once he turns? that would be parry and shots cannot be parried. the only issues we have with dodge is that ferals and rogues might gain huge dodge values through agility. to me mop is a godsend from a hunters pov.

in pve we get:
selfheal
-15% dmg taken through iron hawk
better scaling through hawk/hunters mark
baseline marked for death
the cool awesome pet stuff like stampede and ferocity specc for my beloved pig
bm viability through ranged kill command/pet aoe
viability of expertise for our specc (yes this is a positive change)
cd free traplauncher

in pvp we get:
baseline -15% dmg, or shorter cd on det
baseline readiness/silencing shot/wyvern sting
stuns
knockbacks
removal of our min range
cd less trap launcher


and alot more i forgot...


seriously, how much more could anyone want... ever?

*lists everything every other caster in the game has*

*points out how they don't get their attacks dodged. Again*

[Deepfriedegg]

Expertise has a major flaw: Hunters need their focus generating shots to connect in order to generate focus. No other class has that mechanic as far as I know (for example not getting runic power when your attack doesnt connect is diffenren because your main rersource has not been spent and you can attack again).
Also there is a problem that while your shot doesnt connect, focus is spent. However, on my DK, as far as I know, my runes are not depleted for attacks that do not connect.

To sum it, it may be logical that hunters have expertise from the "physical class" point of view. However, from "ranged" point of view and from reasons I stated above, expertise is not a good idea.
If hunters need to spend more rating in cappable stats, I would say increase our hit cap and miss chance and give us passive ability that converts expertise (rating) to hit (rating).

Opinions?

[bandet]

Expertise has a major flaw: Hunters need their focus generating shots to connect in order to generate focus. No other class has that mechanic as far as I know (for example not getting runic power when your attack doesnt connect is diffenren because your main rersource has not been spent and you can attack again).
Also there is a problem that while your shot doesnt connect, focus is spent. However, on my DK, as far as I know, my runes are not depleted for attacks that do not connect.

To sum it, it may be logical that hunters have expertise from the "physical class" point of view. However, from "ranged" point of view and from reasons I stated above, expertise is not a good idea.
If hunters need to spend more rating in cappable stats, I would say increase our hit cap and miss chance and give us passive ability that converts expertise (rating) to hit (rating).

Opinions?

Yeah that works fine, just make expertise do the same thing as hit for hunters, and make us need 17% hit.

And if they are making us need more hit, they can go ahead and remove the negative base critical chance that we had to compensate for the fact that we need less hit than other classes.

That is something most people who whine about hunters only needing 8% hit don't know about, the base negative crit.

[Deepfriedegg]

*lists everything every other caster in the game has*

*points out how they don't get their attacks dodged. Again*

you forgot to point out how other casters´ hit cap is approximately twice as high as hunters´.

[zugzug]

The point is bcoz now on live all melees need 8% hit + exp (enh shamys even spell hit). In order to compensate that casters need 17% hit, only bcoz they dont have exp. Why hunters should get shortcut with only hit? Thats why in mop melee hit cap is 7.5%, exp is 7.5% and spell hit is 15%. All are equals.

[Deleted]

I am not sure you understand ANYTHING I am saying.

This is -NOT- the same problem melee has been dealing with. This problem has NEVER appeared in the history of the game because ranged attacks are not designed to be dodgeable.


Since you really don't seem to understand... here is a do-it-yourself example.
Go walk up to a target dummy, melee it. Now, walk behind it and melee it again. Record how long it takes to do that.
Now, go stand 40 yards away from a target dummy. Then, walk 40 yards behind it. Record how long it takes to do that. Oh, and don't run through, go in a circle, since you need to be outside of melees gap closer range.

Now, imagine the target dummy turns. Like a player might. Say, every second, the target dummy's direction updates to point towards you, and then try to get behind it in both ways, staying at max range, and staying in melee range.

So, once you have done that, come back and tell me how it is anything like anything a melee had to deal with ever.

And what about fight mechanism since you're a pver? Until now every time melees was the 1st one to die while caster/range they simply stay and dps. What about time on boss? Raids are not like dummys<>

[Psilar]

I can't believe this thread is still going on. First, missing any attack or getting it dodged or parried sucks for anyone? Warriors, paladins, rogue are all effected by this. Yes they are all melee. Paladins and warriors and to a lesser extent rogues...can not only not get resources from a dodge but they can waste the resources with a parry or a dodge.

Now, should ranged attacks be dodged? Yes. Why can a hunter hit a moving, charging, sprinting, blinking target (etc) from 40 yards away without a chance of missing (or a dodge)....the idea is absurd. The idea that a plate wearing warrior dodges is kind of a stretch. Most melee attacks aren't dodged they're parried in a real combat situation. A dodge would occur almost strictly for a ranged situation or at least for people wearing light and medium armor.

Now, this is a good change. Not only does it makes sense - you get to roll on more loot. All that's going on here is a mix-up of the stats and has no real fuckin implications.

I love hearing the people in this thread bitch about all this stuff. Who seriously gives a fuck, Cata was the most balanced xpac yes...I expect Mists to be better.

[zugzug]

I am not sure you understand ANYTHING I am saying.

This is -NOT- the same problem melee has been dealing with. This problem has NEVER appeared in the history of the game because ranged attacks are not designed to be dodgeable.


Since you really don't seem to understand... here is a do-it-yourself example.
Go walk up to a target dummy, melee it. Now, walk behind it and melee it again. Record how long it takes to do that.
Now, go stand 40 yards away from a target dummy. Then, walk 40 yards behind it. Record how long it takes to do that. Oh, and don't run through, go in a circle, since you need to be outside of melees gap closer range.

Now, imagine the target dummy turns. Like a player might. Say, every second, the target dummy's direction updates to point towards you, and then try to get behind it in both ways, staying at max range, and staying in melee range.

So, once you have done that, come back and tell me how it is anything like anything a melee had to deal with ever.

I dont think even you understand what you are saying. Melees go behind bcoz of the parry, not the dodge. They add dodge for hunters, not parry. Aslong as you got the exp, you can stay w/e you want. As i pointed out, this is done to equal the ratings for melee hit + exp = spell hit = hunters hit + exp.

[Deleted]

Imho getting enha shaman and hunters same gear is bigger thing than having some "unrealistic scenario" of people dodging arrows.

[ltm]

Imho getting enha shaman and hunters same gear is bigger thing than having some "unrealistic scenario" of people dodging arrows.

It would have been better to give enhance exp cap through talents and make both hunters and enhance gear for 15% hit

[zugzug]

It would have been better to give enhance exp cap through talents and make both hunters and enhance gear for 15% hit

If enh still needs spell hit in mop, that actually could have been the better option.

[Dirgon]

I main as Enhancement

We have to cap Expertise and SPELL Hit

So quit yer bellyaching :-P

This held more water when melee hit and spell hit were two different types of hit.


Anyways, I like the change, but my hunter is merely my favorite alt and has never been my main. GC has said he likes the idea of softcaps to work your gear around (so do I, in fact) and that Hunters only had the one with hit.

I've always thought it kind of lame that 2H DPS only had to worry about 8% hit and hunters never had to worry about expertise compared to the large amounts of hit and expertise dual wield DPS require. I remember back in vanilla, playing a rogue, we always cried about the fact that we can't dodge hunters and were basically fodder for them (the good ones) for a long, long time. The response was to allow us +25% ranged dodge when using evasion. :\

Anyways, the logic fits. It'll let tank/dps monks, cat/bear druids, rogues, hunters, and enhancement shamans all fight over the same rings necks and trinkets without Blizzard worrying about the stats on the items, as well as hunters and shamans sharing all mail pieces. Before, I'm under the impression it was a real pain for shamans to get expertise because not many pieces had it. Now that 1/3rd the playable specs use agility.