Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Go on PTR right now with the new 4set and use the procs as they come for 5minutes.
Go on PTR right now with the old 4set and use the procs as they come for 5minutes.

Considering the possibility of a 3.8 speed wep next tier means the TV hits will be even more massive, CD reducing trinket = hello mastery gaining priority as well.
Like I said couple pages ago the next tiers 4set needs to hit for 33% of a TV and the averaged out damage from our "filler abilities" just to match whatever we lose from not generating holy power with the proc. Now they could make the entire problem go away by making DS proc also give a holy power then it'll actually be a spell worth using single target, atm the DS proc only barely outdamages judgement if you consider that we also lose 33(.33333)% of a tv as well....

4set proc on ptr needs another 60-80% increased damage (if only on your current target not for the entire aoe) OR make the proc generate 1 holy power when used.

This tier we were penalized for using 4set in aoe fights, made our 4set do nothing.
Next tier we're going to be penalized for using 4set in single targets because 4set proc isn't going to be worth using... see how things repeat themselves?

[anaxie]

Go on PTR right now with the new 4set and use the procs as they come for 5minutes.
Go on PTR right now with the old 4set and use the procs as they come for 5minutes.

Considering the possibility of a 3.8 speed wep next tier means the TV hits will be even more massive, CD reducing trinket = hello mastery gaining priority as well.
Like I said couple pages ago the next tiers 4set needs to hit for 33% of a TV and the averaged out damage from our "filler abilities" just to match whatever we lose from not generating holy power with the proc. Now they could make the entire problem go away by making DS proc also give a holy power then it'll actually be a spell worth using single target, atm the DS proc only barely outdamages judgement if you consider that we also lose 33(.33333)% of a tv as well....

4set proc on ptr needs another 60-80% increased damage (if only on your current target not for the entire aoe) OR make the proc generate 1 holy power when used.

This tier we were penalized for using 4set in aoe fights, made our 4set do nothing.
Next tier we're going to be penalized for using 4set in single targets because 4set proc isn't going to be worth using... see how things repeat themselves?

^ Exactly this guy understands the gravity of the situation. Currently a DS proc is about 95% of a normal TV there is one that doesn't do seal damage afterall. the CURRENT bonus increases TVS TOTAL damage by about 120% because of the huge mastery gains ect. With our current weapon damage values. .2 slower you say? that is a insane damage gain. I wouldn't be surprised if it's over 50K extra damage to TV. DS is... NORMALIZED 3.3 very large dps difference even with standard 3.6 weapons.

Moving forward. ONE GCD DOING MORE DPS THEN TWO GCDS WILL ALWAYS <<<< BE HUGE. If the fight is single target only dropping TV bonus is something similar to saying. You know what! I think I'd be better off if my legendary meta just gave me the 340 crit rating and did nothing else.

Anyone dismissing these concepts need to return to their level one starting zone andd just leave their paladin where it was first created and never log in again. Because they have learned NOTHING.

Our only chance for salvation lies in the hands of Mister RNG. DP procing for 25% chance off itself and DS procing 25% off itself. I guess this "could" make the currently bonus similar in value to the 40% proc through a synergistic function. If majority of our rotational abiltiies aka CS can be replaced with these procs then of course it would be a net gain. It's VERY difficult though because for every Free DS you are giving up a CS or something similar for every holy TV you gave up... nothing!

THANKFULLY weapon damage scaling is still skyrocketing AND trinket strength proc scaling aka feather/premo/spark/guardian are losing steam just the guardian along will nuke your "average and highest" HoW hits by a huge margin, Feather missing? Another big nuke. So DP may just default end up better with 580 weapon values.... OR HIGHER you know Garrosh is the FINAL boss so fuck he could have higher table imagine a 588 3.8 speed weapon? Spurrrrt? Yeah I did too.

Now then... Who wants to play Light Bright?

[sleepy67]

usually in the past, blizzard also likes to make your last tier set of the expansion very sparkly with all the stats you want too. there is rarely an expansion where the last tier has all trash stats for ANY class. i don't expect people to just up n drop their good stats cause " man this tier set wasnt as OP as our last one, i refuse to use it at all!"

Prot Paladin says hello

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Step one is to get everyone on the same page, then we can go on to whatever problem solving there is.

[Tecnice]

I like how this thread has gone from half decent tips/suggestions to complete "I am right you are wrong at everything" discussions.

Hopefully it can come back on track once T16 comes closer, more things are datamined and more things are final, because right now almost everything is just theories (Also where does this 3.8 weapon come into discussion? I've seen no mention off it anywhere but here)

If it doesn't come back on track, hopefully a new thread can be made because I can imagine this is a living nightmare to read through for people who wants to learn about the class, how things work and the likes of that.

Yeah at this point people are just getting antsy awaiting further changes / updates. Now back on track..I love ANAXIE!

[Reghame]

Go on PTR right now with the new 4set and use the procs as they come for 5minutes.
Go on PTR right now with the old 4set and use the procs as they come for 5minutes.

Considering the possibility of a 3.8 speed wep next tier means the TV hits will be even more massive, CD reducing trinket = hello mastery gaining priority as well.
Like I said couple pages ago the next tiers 4set needs to hit for 33% of a TV and the averaged out damage from our "filler abilities" just to match whatever we lose from not generating holy power with the proc. Now they could make the entire problem go away by making DS proc also give a holy power then it'll actually be a spell worth using single target, atm the DS proc only barely outdamages judgement if you consider that we also lose 33(.33333)% of a tv as well....

4set proc on ptr needs another 60-80% increased damage (if only on your current target not for the entire aoe) OR make the proc generate 1 holy power when used.

This tier we were penalized for using 4set in aoe fights, made our 4set do nothing.
Next tier we're going to be penalized for using 4set in single targets because 4set proc isn't going to be worth using... see how things repeat themselves?

im guessing you wont be happy until it does 275% weapon damage on proc + the fact that its still pure holy damage to even consider it as a viable spell. and stop saying it generates no holy power. with weapon damage going way up, and str procs going way down, we will most likely be using DP this means, YOU ARE GENERATING HOLY POWER, just not directly as in a you get 1 for using this sort of thing. and like i have said MULTIPLE TIMES holy power generation, combo points, what ever the hell you want, does not mean a DAMN THING if your already using finishers. its the same reason we dont use judgement when we are at 5 holy power. whats the point? its less damage and we are already at max.

and as i keep saying, which seems to get neglected EVER time i post it, they will either bake old 4 set in, or nerf it, it shouldn't have even given us such a boost and dps and has been a cruch. what they have finally done is fix what was mostly holding us back which were long CDs and a somewhat not fun buff which caused problems with how much holy power would could be spending on actual damage. if they see us using the old tier even once this next patch, it WILL get nerfed. no old tier has not been addressed when its being used over a newer and higher ilevel tier. the only one that was an issue was the old guardian tier which was slightly hard for them to fix, where the t15 one is easy cause they can just nerf all the numbers on it so we don't use it.

and once again, for prolly my 20th post. considering people are still complaining about it. its the PTR, there are still lots of builds we don't even know about, its not even close to over. if its a problem itl get fixed. if not, itl get HOTFIXED like most things. as of what we CAN see, we are going to be VERY STRONG this tier, no matter what unless they flat out super nerf us. we cannot ask for 1000% more buffs and expect NOT to get nerfed. so stop it.

- - - Updated - - -

Gona add this too. if you think its SUCH A LOSS IN SINGLE TARGET! OMG! go test it, despite the fact that a majority of us on these forums have heroic and prolly double upgraded tier, and the tier on the PTR is only normal, but STILL higher ilevel. go test it
you will quickly find its not a huge loss, maybe you will even have fun with all the super chaotic procs flying left and right with dp+4set, who knows.
unless you say hey, i tested this, its just flat out bad, or its XX number behind so and so, im not going to take your word for anything. i HAVE tested it on MULTIPLE types of targets. single, cleave, AOE, short duration AOE, w/e, it was fine or even great on those fights unlike our old tier which was single target or basically a worthless bonus.

from what i have seen, the tier is about 555 ilevel or something real close to that, and i'm guessing from what people have said a heroic "TF" tier piece will be about 580.
considering i haven't seen a DRAMATIC drop in single target between the two if ANY at all, i'm assuming flat out right now that being 40 some ilevels higher, with possible our best stats considering its the last tier where they usually like people to have decent to good stats on at least 3/5 to 4/5 pieces. its going to STOMP on our old tier regardless of what it does. unless the bonus makes you one shot bosses. that is 4 pieces of 40 some ilevels on equal playing field. that's a LOT of Fing stats to just throw away cause you dont like what the set does.

I'm also going to give an example as to why i think this next tier was better designed as well, despite their old form of not wanting AOE for single target. our t15 4 piece is very flawed. lets say your doing lei shen heroic, your ball damage is slightly low so everyone needs to pitch in or what have you. now, how good is your set bonus? guess what, its WORTHLESS for those adds. your not gona use TV unless you like your raid wiping. it also has a break point where its not even worth using because after a certain number of adds, a holy TV on 1 target + seal is STILL lower that DS hitting everything + maybe SoR if its at a certain number of adds. our NEW set we are getting does not have that flaw. you WILL use it for single AND AOE. it might be STRONGER on one field or another, but its not WORTHLESS and becomes a crutch in another. unless our new tier has like all hit and expertise on it to make those 40 ilevel boost or w/e that huge number it will be is worthless cause we cant use the stats. we will use our t16. its not BAD for single target, its good for cleave, and flat out BROKEN in huge AOE. as it stands, we are not that bad for single target maybe even slightly on the good side if you will. and our short burst AOE is fantastic. we are even getting buffs so our single target will go up slightly, t15 or not, cleave will get huge with new set and AOE will be even higher than what a bladestorm warrior with reck up can do. i dont want anything else, we look to be very good this next patch. and more buffs could result in becoming complete trash which happens.

[Footsz]

Lets math it out then Reghame. First, assuming we take divine purpose. I'm only going to math out Crusader Strike, since exorcism is ahead of it (and judgment hits harder than CS anyways).

A divine purpose proc is the equivalent of 3 holy power. Law of averages says we'll see 25% of our finishers give us a proc. This means the talent causes our finishers to generate, on average 0.75 holy power per finisher.

Let's examine the alternatives for those GCDs. We have exorcism, crusader strike, and judgement. These abilities generate 1 holy power, which is 0.25 more than a Divine Purpose proc. This means the finisher needs to deal enough damage to make up for the loss of 0.25 holy power. 0.25 holy power is 1/12th of a Templar's verdict. That means the ability must deal Crusader strike's damage + 23% weapon damage (275 / 12 = 22.96667, I'm going to ignore the 52 damage of the flat damage on TV divided by 12 to round this up). Crusader Strike is 125% + 633, so adding the 23% gives us 148% + 633 that the finisher (in this case divine storm) needs to do.

An average crusader strike with 1/12th of a TV is going to be 71104.68, at least in my current gear (not factoring in mastery, as it would just inflate the numbers by the same percentage and wouldn't flip the two we'll be comparing). After armor reduction, this value is 48351.18.

A 4pc Divine Storm proc would be 150% weapon damage, which is 71424 with current gear, however it is holy damage and goes through armor. The proc (with DS) would easily be ahead for single target. At 100% weapon damage like it was originally, it would have only done 47616 damage on average. Not enough to be worth hitting.

Obviously for multiple targets with DP it would be better.

Now to examine without DP. The opportunity cost of a finisher over a CS would be 1/3rd of a TV instead of 1/12th, which would be 92% weapon damage. That would make the DS need to do CS+92%, which would be 217% weapon damage. Without DP, the 4 piece would be a DPS loss over crusader strike. I would assume the same for exorcism, HoW, and judgment, although I can do the math if people would like me to.

I will note with all this that I'm not factoring in the delay on CS, which would come out to around another 1/3rd of a holy power and would strengthen the value of CS in the above calculations.

TLDR: The set bonus with DP would have been a DPS loss for single target without the buff, which we already knew. With the buff, it's worth using as we already know, but it isn't huge. Without DP, it's last in our priorities unless we're hitting multiple targets.

If there are any errors in my math please point them out and I'll try to fix them.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

You're right, I won't be happy untill the DS proc deals more damage than a normal TV. It's supposed to be a bonus, I'm not saying the proc should deal damage to a TV to EVERYTHING... that would be OP as fuck. But they need to find a way to make the set bonus be a viable option to use for single target regardless of DP or not, so they could let's say make the set bonus do 260% wep damage to your main target and 95% wep damage to everything else. Those are random numbers but the simple fact is that we won't use the proc as soon as it comes unless we don't have anything else to hit in a single target situation, the set bonus is fucking insane for aoe. Still fucking garbage design to have a bonus only viable in one situation and not the other, which is the entire fucking problem here as far as I can see.

[Footsz]

You're right, I won't be happy untill the DS proc deals more damage than a normal TV. It's supposed to be a bonus, I'm not saying the proc should deal damage to a TV to EVERYTHING... that would be OP as fuck. But they need to find a way to make the set bonus be a viable option to use for single target regardless of DP or not, so they could let's say make the set bonus do 260% wep damage to your main target and 95% wep damage to everything else. Those are random numbers but the simple fact is that we won't use the proc as soon as it comes unless we don't have anything else to hit in a single target situation, the set bonus is fucking insane for aoe. Still fucking garbage design to have a bonus only viable in one situation and not the other, which is the entire fucking problem here as far as I can see.

Yup exactly. Holy Avenger and Sanctified Wrath will have the procs near the back of their priorities, which is rather disappointing.

[anaxie]

Oh happy days

[Reghame]

after some more testing on the ptr....... all i can say is wow.....
the one crit stacking trinket is just WAY overpowered, broken, or something. it had 100% uptime or damn close to it and when im sitting at 30% crit in raid through INQ AND crit raid buff.. i jump to 80% crit chance when it has 20 stacks........
by far going to be THE BEST trinket in the raid if it sticks just because 80% crit chance is just flat out broken in any scenario. and the trinket can proc off ANYTHING but seals unfortunately. this means, if there are 20 adds. 1 HotR makes it 20 stack right off the bat. you could also pair this with the trinket that adds 15% crit hit damage and 15% more mastery and haste and be just a flat out god for AOE. i did some huge 20 or 30 pack near the wall that everyone keeps saying and just wow..... i think it broke the 10 million marker for a few seconds... just flat our broken.

as for the other trinkets the CDR one is nice. makes our wings and guardian almost never line up but the frequency goes through the roof.

the cleave trinket is just flat out bad and should never be used in its current state due to it only have a 2% chance to cleave and it seems to only cleave auto attacks which is just BAD BAD BAD!

the multiplier trinket i said above is very nice on its own. with mastery buff and stacking mastery gems/reforge for some ridiculous AOE stuffs, it would boost my mastery to about 65% when i only had 57% before equipping it. this also effects haste and crit hit DAMAGE! (note that because our leg gem does not have the usual 3% crit hit damage an extra 15% crit damage seems very nice on its own, even more with ridiculous amounts of crit.... read the first paragraph on how broken the crit trinket+ the multiplier one is.)

and the last one that i have not mentioned yet is the haste proc one, which also seems to be bad in its current state. it has a very low up time compared to the rest of the trinkets this tier and gives us way to much to even want to use any of it so i doubt we will even look at it unless they fix it.

so yea...... crit stacking trinket + multiplier trinket seems like a godly combo ATM. it may be stronger to use these despite the fact that the other CDR trinket makes guardian and wings have somewhat very low CDs.

i will try to do some more testing for single target depending on which of those 3 trinkets ( CDR, multiplier, and crit stacking trinkets) would be best for single. as of now though i'm almost certain that the crit stacking + multiplier trinket are going to be BIS for cleave and AOE hands down.

don't know how to link, but if you don't know which trinkets i'm really talking about they are on MMO champ, wowhead PTR, and the PTR itself.

EDIT: the CDR trinket's 6 abilities for ret paladins are Divine Shield, Divine Protection, Devotion Aura, Hand of Protection, Avenging Wrath, and Guardian of Ancient Kings. i dont think it lists them anywhere that i know about so i just wanted to add that.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Think I was the one who pointed everyone towards the wall.

The "cleave" trinket I've had doing 18% of my 900k sustained aoe (solo, so no heals wich means retarded glyphs and playing to survive longer).
It's definitely the weakest of the trinkets but I think it's getting a buff, if there's ever a 20add fight that spawn all the time, think Primordius but from one location, then it's going to be okay but nothing compared to the crit trinket and the % rating increasing trinket. That said I really think the crit stacking trinket is broken, most likely it's going to behave like ji'kun's fabled feather and the agility/int version that we have this tier.

40% crit on 80-90% uptime is just retarded in every single fucking way you look at it, it's going to be nerfed or fixed in some way.
But yeah, with the correct trinkets and spec on ptr right now ret aoe is simply OP. 20mobs and cds and you get like 20m combined DS hits, it's mental.

The haste trinket is indeed bad, it might be good if we gem mastery and take our haste down to 30% so we actually get a benefit from the 11k haste proc. Doubt it'll ever be worth using though simply because the other 3 trinkets atm are mad strong.

[anaxie]

Several pages have already mentioned everything about every trinket already

Btw if crit stacking trinket goes live broken like this. Single target all I gotta say.. T1555555555

Anyway expect it to be nerfed significantly soon. Impossible to go live this absurdly broken in comparison to the other trinkets.

Infact its so fucking broken they should make it a priority to fix now rather then skewing their encounters testing hardcore.

[Torchbringer]

man oh man, i remember just a few weeks back when they released the new tier sets and EVERYONE cried their eyes out about how underwhelming it was. then it got buffed by 50% and people STILL cried it was underwhelming. despite me saying, hey guys it works really well with DP, almost all the fights are AOE and cleave too, it was still called bad as well i got branded as some retarded new ret on the forum. but NOW, everyone is praising it cause they finally tested the dame thing and are giving it all sorts of praise.
Remember when i said the sky was NOT falling? and how i said it was better than it looks? well yea. its fucking awesome.

once again i end with a TLDR, don't cry about it until you test it and its finally out on live. its prolly much better overall.
and if our BiS is that 3.8 "gorehowl" weapon off garrosh, and if its legendary. COME THE HELL ON BLIZZ! GIVE US A LEGENDARY 2H SWORD YOU ASSHATS!

oh, as for the T16 look, i think its ok. i like the helmet a lot cause it looks a lot like a full plated helm a crusader would wear back in the dark ages or w/e that period was. the shoulders look a lil too frillish for me and the entire set looks so dark considering we are paladins and its not really a good theme for the raid its set in. All in all, the helm is the only thing that really sells the tier for me. rest is a bit iffy.

Id say overall though this patch is defiantly one of the best we have had.

I've never seen such a delusional poster on these forums. This is too funny.

Let's not post such unnecessary comments, please. Keep your posts on topic and void of attitudes like this please. Thanks! -Krekko

[Reghame]

after some more testing it would definitely seem that if the crit trinket stays as is, we would use the crit stacking trinket + the multiplier trinket on every fight unless we are required to use our raid utility a lot and need the CDR on HoP and devo aura. as for the haste and cleave trinket, i could see the cleave trinket becoming good if they boosted it enough, but it would never be that great for single target unless it was flat out op for AOE unless they changed it's proc rate to something thats NOT 1.7% lol. they could chance it to where its % is changed depending on current targets around you which is highly unlikely.
the haste trinket though, i dunno. it would need a HUGE up time buff. some of the tests i ran with it would not even break 10% up time which is just trash considering it would make us go full mastery and even if we would be already doing that, its up time is just horrendous and it would be like a mini hero that we got just as often as hero.
i'm not so sure where they will go with this, but if it stays there is no doubt in my mind that the crit trinket will be breaking all sorts of metrics in the new raid as to how balanced the content can be.

[Footsz]

Crit trinket is up more than ji-kun's with 17k haste. If this goes live it'll break raids.

[Revvo]

The crit trinket has to be broken. Way it is now is absurd. It won't go live like this.

[Neldarie]

This thread what do? Anyways about cd reduction trinkets it will prolly end up going to wars then rets etc for proper raid benefits and shit (25manwise). But ye trinkets this expac(designwise+proper (ab)usability) have been rather retarded past first tier.

[Footsz]

This thread what do? Anyways about cd reduction trinkets it will prolly end up going to wars then rets etc for proper raid benefits and shit (25manwise). But ye trinkets this expac(designwise+proper (ab)usability) have been rather retarded past first tier.

We get devotion aura on ours, I wouldn't be so sure about them getting it over us.

[Neldarie]

We get devotion aura on ours, I wouldn't be so sure about them getting it over us.

They get both banners + cry(default win).