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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by derevka View Post
    Friendly tip: AA has zero interaction with Shell. So don't waste AA by running it concurrently with SShell. That right there could be part of your throughput concerns.

    Also I am curious where you calc'd this 25% increase in output that you state SShell provides, as well as these other %'s youre touting... they do not line up with the numbers I did in my Heroic/Normal 10/25 testing on beta... nor simming. Maybe I am missing some critical part of the math, so I'd be curious to hear what you suggest I missed. What stat levels did you get those numbers at?
    Thanks for the friendly tip, let me give you a more useful one. You need to synch spirit shell with AA, not so that they land together but so that you can use AA 1.5 times per minute. You use spirit shell to stack before a big hit, then after SS ends you instantly pop AA so that you can get a boost while topping the raid up then you have to restack and reuse AA quickly before the next spirit shell. After that you stack again and use quickly the stack and refresh evangelism just before spirit shell so that you start the cycle again. This is for maximal sustained HPS. For burst healing big raid wide hits you need to make sure that you can activate AA the instant SS expires. So that you can stack extra aegis and have extra oomph for healing up the raid after the big hits.

    I was one of the people who contributing to getting the exact formula for spirit shell. You can find it on the EJ forums, but I also posted it on the beta class forums. With 6.36% crit and 30.41% mastery ss-PoH heals for 24% more than normal PoH. For Gheal and other direct heals it is 33% more, but PoH is the one that matters for aoe healing. This does not change too much for a relatively wide range of mastery and crit values. If your values dont match this then the most likely source of error is failing to properly calculate the contribution of aegis, mastery and crit to normal heals. For example on beta PoH heals for ~18k according to the tooltip, but if you add aegis, crit and mastery its actually 27k. Spirit shell PoH is 34k

    Here is an example of perfect synching on elegon:
    imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/wowscrnshot082712013223.jpg/

    I am hitting 58k, but that is only because we are practically 3 healing it. Even so this is at peak and with heavy mana expenditure. He was bugged this try so we could not get into p3, however from past experience I can tell you I would finish that run at roughly 45k. With 5 healers I am in the 35k mark. Here is the same as holy but this time with 5 healers and for essentially the whole fight.
    imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/wowscrnshot082312020125.jpg/

    The monk above me was below me when we entered p3. He just went all out and built the lead you see in under 2 minutes.

    Here is a recent example from blade lord in the heart of fear. I took a screenie in the middle and the end:

    Middle: imageshack.us/photo/my-images/411/wowscrnshot090212035508.jpg/
    End: imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/wowscrnshot090212035824.jpg/

    This is a great fight for disc, since it is very bursty without much sustained aoe. Disc is pretty much at 40k. The shaman hit 50k in over 60% of the tries.

    The values I posted are what I see ppl doing in LFR right now on beta. I know I am not under-performing because I am pretty close to the theoretical maximum throughput, given the nature of the encounters, and so far no other disc priest in LFR has come anywhere close to me (which we can expect since its LFR).

    FYI I was in the top 20 disc in WoL for most several fights on normal and hc DS before they started nerfing it. On warmaster I am still rank 20 disc even though I havent done normal warmaster for a very long time: worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Warmaster_Blackhorn/25N/Discipline_Priest/?page=1#p-15552457. On the first week of DS release, I was in the first page for every fight and was briefly rank 2 disc on Madness. I may not be the best disc priest eu, but you can bet I know I thing or two about maximising throughput.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-04 at 06:46 PM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliell View Post
    Guys, can someone ask about Shadowy Apparitions at official beta class balance analysis thread? As far as I can see, they have still a lot of bugs. Pathing is still an issue, and when their target dies before they reach it, they still waits near you and do nothing. I wonder if they will ever fix it. (I think it would have been better if they had just flied to their target.)
    Yep same issues as always with Apparitions. Would be nice if they could fix it, but I would recommend not holding your breath on it.

  3. #143
    Hi. Posting to get that name off of the frontpage.

    State of the Priest? Good, although I feel kind of like Holy's rotation has become COH-POM-Solace-Solace-Solace.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Hi. Posting to get that name off of the frontpage.

    State of the Priest? Good, although I feel kind of like Holy's rotation has become COH-POM-Solace-Solace-Solace.
    Actually atm mindbender and solace are pretty close for holy.

  5. #145
    Given the the near equality of the two, Mindbender becomes the far better choice imo. It's a fire and forget spell that you need to waste one global a minute for.

    Solace
    Solace
    Solace
    Solace

    casting is dumb

  6. #146
    This is the true state of healing in MoP right now. I was doing LFR on ambershaper with 4 monks and a pala. On the 1st try I got killed pretty much at the start, by two living ambers + the parasite. The 4 monks however happily continued healing as though I was not there, until the raid wiped at 20% odd due to ppl not interupting themselves when they mutated and wiping the raid. The following screenie is the healing meter after the wipe. The report on the left is only healing the one of the right is healing + overhealing:

    imageshack.us/photo/my-images/525/monks74khpswith40oh.png/

    No, your eyes are not deceiving you. The top monk is indeed at 74k HPS with over 40% overheal. Basically the top three monks would have zero problems 3 healing this. The rest of the healers are just contributing to overheal. It is really inspiring to see. Raid at 20% 4 monks hit their uplift button raid instantly goes to 100%. In what world did blizzard think that giving monks a hot they they can keep permanently on the entire raid and a button that refreshes all those hots instantly + doing healing was not going to be OP. And that is not the end of it I clocked a monk hitting 98k HPS on a massive trash pack with spinning crane kick. Nice idea blizz to not stick a limit on the amount of healing done by spinning crane kick with multiple mobs.

    I thought I would try to do my best as disc first. Screw running oom, just heal my guts out for as long as I could. This is how it worked out. I took screenies throughout the fight and put them together in one image

    imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/discambershaper.png/

    While the incoming damage is low. I am doing really well because I absorb a good chunk of it before it even hits. However once he summons his big construct and the raid starts taking tons of damage the monks roflstomp everything. The last screenie is a bit misleading. I was actually above the pala at roughtly 32k HPS when I died during the wipe. I think if I perfectly optimised my gear and made less mistakes synching everything (its not easy) I could potentially hit 35-40k. I would still be behind the top 3 monks however.

    Next attempt I decided to switch to holy and this is the result:

    imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/holyambershaper.png/

    This is pretty much at the end, when we killed him. I am not posting the very end of the fight because it was not a clean kill, most of the raid was dead. This is the last point where all the healers and nearly all of the raid are alive.

    As you can see as holy I am sitting 2nd at 38k HPS. Well below the top monk, but at least I am not last. This time the fight was done better so the constructs were properly controlled and the actual damage was less. In other words holy's output in a high constant damage phase is roughly 20% more than it is for disc.

    Disc looks great when the incoming damage is low, but when the shit really hits the fan, its low throughput, extremely complex playstyle and infinite hunger for mana, just won't cut the mustard. The only reason to bring a disc priest in such a fight is if there is stuff that is unhealable without barrier/spirit shell reducing the damage. Before the penance nerf, the difference would have been 10%, which is ok given how powerfull the disc cooldowns are.

    Basically holy has nice aoe heals with high mobility and excels at healing a spread out raid. Disc has zero mobility, low aoe throughput, but has OP tank healing and spirit shell is a fecking awesome cooldown.

    In comparison with other healers, disc is at the bottom of the pile for aoe healing and the top of the pile for tank healing. For aoe healing spread out healing on the move, holy is about as good as monks or better. For stacked healing we are slightly below paladins, below shamans and far far far far below monks.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-06 at 07:16 PM.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    Given the the near equality of the two, Mindbender becomes the far better choice imo. It's a fire and forget spell that you need to waste one global a minute for.

    Solace
    Solace
    Solace
    Solace

    casting is dumb
    I agree.
    Mindbender's regen has changed slightly... currently its restoring more than 1.3 per swing. (its actually some odd decimal 1.461) Its about 9 casts now (with the new number), but at 1.3 its 8 casts/min. 8 (or 9) casts isnt anything to scoff at...
    Last edited by derevka; 2012-09-06 at 10:29 PM.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    This is the true state of healing in MoP right now. I was doing LFR on ambershaper with 4 monks and a pala. On the 1st try I got killed pretty much at the start, by two living ambers + the parasite. The 4 monks however happily continued healing as though I was not there, until the raid wiped at 20% odd due to ppl not interupting themselves when they mutated and wiping the raid. The following screenie is the healing meter after the wipe. The report on the left is only healing the one of the right is healing + overhealing:

    imageshack.us/photo/my-images/525/monks74khpswith40oh.png/

    No, your eyes are not deceiving you. The top monk is indeed at 74k HPS with over 40% overheal. Basically the top three monks would have zero problems 3 healing this. The rest of the healers are just contributing to overheal. It is really inspiring to see. Raid at 20% 4 monks hit their uplift button raid instantly goes to 100%. In what world did blizzard think that giving monks a hot they they can keep permanently on the entire raid and a button that refreshes all those hots instantly + doing healing was not going to be OP. And that is not the end of it I clocked a monk hitting 98k HPS on a massive trash pack with spinning crane kick. Nice idea blizz to not stick a limit on the amount of healing done by spinning crane kick with multiple mobs.
    This is what is so annoying to me. When Monks are obliterating everyone else in healing come MoP, who will be surprised? No one but Blizzard, evidently. It was the same when Cataclysm rolled out -- everyone knew Holy Pallies would be OP in the new 'mana matters' paradigm, and so when that, indeed, proved to be the case (and Disc was predictably terrible), why would anyone have been surprised? I just don't understand why things are left as is when there is a mountain of evidence of big problems.

  9. #149
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Can anyone tell me what Shadow is currently performing like at 90? I've heard that despite being broken (as we are currently on live) we're still not as competitive at 90. These are merely rumours as far as I can see but would like confirmation if possible.
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2012-09-07 at 02:12 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Can anyone tell me what Shadow is currently performing like at 90? I've heard that despite being broken (as we are currently on live) we're still not as competitive at 90. These are merely rumours as far as I can see but would like confirmation if possible.
    From my experience and what I've seen other say it seems like the consensus is that we're bottom of the pack single target, and we get to middle of the pack when multiple targets are involved.
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2012-09-07 at 02:12 AM.

  11. #151
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    From my experience and what I've seen other say it seems like the consensus is that we're bottom of the pack single target, and we get to middle of the pack when multiple targets are involved.
    Sounds fun. The thing we're meant to be good at/useful for only gets us to middle of the pack. If this is correct Mists is going to be a lot of fun...

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Sounds fun. The thing we're meant to be good at/useful for only gets us to middle of the pack. If this is correct Mists is going to be a lot of fun...
    Which is why many lovers of the "old" shadow, myself included, seem to be looking at affliction with a keen eye. (They're one of the top specs according to simcraft in both normal and heroic t14 raid gear and apparently play similarly to the old shadow. I'm testing out affliction in lfr to see if I like it or not :P)

  13. #153
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Which is why many lovers of the "old" shadow, myself included, seem to be looking at affliction with a keen eye. (They're one of the top specs according to simcraft in both normal and heroic t14 raid gear and apparently play similarly to the old shadow. I'm testing out affliction in lfr to see if I like it or not :P)
    Indeed warlocks are very strong at the minute. Affliction doesn't suffer from the burst issues it did pre-5.0 and plays *almost* exactly like the old Shadow. I'll only be re-rolling affliction if Shadow proves uncompetitive enough for progression purposes, as I don't hate the new rotation. Sure, it could be better, but could also be worse (compared to some classes, anyway).

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingradio View Post
    This is what is so annoying to me. When Monks are obliterating everyone else in healing come MoP, who will be surprised? No one but Blizzard, evidently. It was the same when Cataclysm rolled out -- everyone knew Holy Pallies would be OP in the new 'mana matters' paradigm, and so when that, indeed, proved to be the case (and Disc was predictably terrible), why would anyone have been surprised? I just don't understand why things are left as is when there is a mountain of evidence of big problems.
    It makes a lot more sense if you realize how Blizzard defines balance. They look at relative % playing a class and give extra buffs to classes that aren't well presented. MoP will launch with zero Monks, so the first leg of the expansion will most definitely cater to them. It's a given and either you ride the gravy train and reroll FotM or just suck it up and wait for the eventual rebalance to occur at a later tier.

  15. #155
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    It makes a lot more sense if you realize how Blizzard defines balance. They look at relative % playing a class and give extra buffs to classes that aren't well presented. MoP will launch with zero Monks, so the first leg of the expansion will most definitely cater to them. It's a given and either you ride the gravy train and reroll FotM or just suck it up and wait for the eventual rebalance to occur at a later tier.
    Balance aside, Monk is actually a whole lot of fun to play and has a lot of flow to it compared to every other healing class (I've played them all). They actually did a really good job with the class overall.

  16. #156
    Hmmm you liked mistweavers? I found the playstyle really annoying. You are pigeonholed into just rolling renewing mists all the time because uplift is so OP. When you see 70% of the heals being basically renewing mists, uplift and the statue, you just know there is something wrong with the class. SCK is the only exception, because there are couple of situations where its even more OP than uplift.

  17. #157
    Yea, I'm not a fan either. I gave it a try in beta, it's too much of a one trick pony and not my play style preference.

    Healing like that is very good for the meters, but with healing that's not the only thing that matters. What also is important is the ability to reliably prevent a death, and I'm not convinced Monks are capable of that the way some of the other healer specs are. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that makes them a liability, especially in 10m where you need to heal smarter not harder.

  18. #158
    Another way to look at it is you have your constant throughput healers, like Monk and Druid, providing that buffer that allows other healers like Priests to do more targeted triage without worrying about random spikes causing deaths quite so much. From that perspective you probably want at least one of each in a raid.

  19. #159
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Hmmm you liked mistweavers? I found the playstyle really annoying. You are pigeonholed into just rolling renewing mists all the time because uplift is so OP. When you see 70% of the heals being basically renewing mists, uplift and the statue, you just know there is something wrong with the class. SCK is the only exception, because there are couple of situations where its even more OP than uplift.
    If that's all you're using then you're not doing it right. Just because you can heal that way doesn't mean you're doing it right. Chi Burst is better than Uplift.. 2x Chi Burst + Chi Brew + 2x Chi Burst is pretty sick burst healing in any direction.. then you also get 2 stacks of Mana Tea just from that burst.

    I think the problem is that us priests (I've been playing a healing priest since Vanilla) are so used to having so many spells that we have a billion keybindings... Monks are a bit simpler with a better flow IMO than any other healer.

    How are Monks bad at triage? Channel + Insta cast FH is a lot of healing.. there's also Life Cocoon, all 3 of which are also amazing for tank healing. Monks are absolutely amazing 10m healers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-07 at 11:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Another way to look at it is you have your constant throughput healers, like Monk and Druid, providing that buffer that allows other healers like Priests to do more targeted triage without worrying about random spikes causing deaths quite so much. From that perspective you probably want at least one of each in a raid.
    Healing in this game has always been about having a synergistic roster of healing, not stacking one class.

  20. #160
    Healing in this game has always been about having a synergistic roster of healing, not stacking one class.
    That's the point I was trying to make

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