Katie Ledecky(US), 15 year-old swimmer doped?

[Deleted]

That professionals have called it "disturbing" is strong evidence, though.

That's not evidence at all. That is hearsay.

[Twotonsteak]

I seriously don't understand how a 15 year old girl can beat top professional girls in their mid 20's.

In few month she improved her time with more than 10 seconds, it's not possible without doping in my opinion. I have a huge passion for swimming and know how hard it is to improve your personal best. Therefore i seriously doubt Ledecky won fair and square.

Hard work won't do it alone in this case, sorry.

Not to be confused with Ye Shiwen, the 16-year-old female Chinese swimmer, who beat times set by MEN in their 20's. Right?

And let's face it, even you admit that this is just based on your "opinion." What do you have to back your opinion up with? Are you an expert in matters of performance enhancing drugs? Are you an Olympic trainer or judge? Have you ever performed at the Olympics? In fact have you ever swam professionally? Because if not, than your opinion amounts to very little.

[Northern Goblin]

That professionals have called it "disturbing" is strong evidence, though.

This goes back to a US coach calling Ye Schwen's swim "impossible."

The Chinese coaches are now firing back with this being "disturbing."


This is nothing more than an unfounded petty war of words, and there's no solid evidence to support any of the accusations. It's all circumstancial and poorly woven.

Not to be confused with Ye Shiwen, the 16-year-old female Chinese swimmer, who beat times set by MEN in their 20's. Right?

Ledecky did the same thing, several women did. Not to mention this is a terrible argument as overall Schwen's swim was slower, just that section was faster.

This isn't suprising, Lochte and Phelps both have a poor freestyle compaired to their other strokes.

[greysinsanderson]

she may have, but i'd wager franklin is more likely to be doping

the field was slow in the 800m race, the 16 year old chinese cheater set a world record while ledecki didn't, comes from a team that has had olympic qualifiers suspended as recently as march, and of course the 30 suspended in the 30s after the US forced the issue and finally got china to admit they were doping up all their female swimmers via a government program.

chances are they're all cheating though. this is their life, it would be seen as 100% worth it to them or they'd simply not be on that level.

---------- Post added 2012-08-05 at 12:20 PM ----------

This goes back to a US coach calling Ye Schwen's swim "impossible."

The Chinese coaches are now firing back with this being "disturbing."


This is nothing more than an unfounded petty war of words, and there's no solid evidence to support any of the accusations. It's all circumstancial and poorly woven.

when we suggested the chinese womens swim team rise from nothing to the best overall team in teh world in less than 4 years, that was unfounded, it was petty, all that other crap people with opinions say about people who voiced their opinion. then 27 of the swimmers were busted, the government doping program was uncovered, etc

people who choose to be dismissive of accusations of the dirtiest program in the world aren't being very intelligent. you may counter with how our track and field athletes have admitted to cheating in the past (most weren't caught until our own government caught them) but that has nothing to do with swimming whatsoever. the chinese swim team cheating scandal, the banned world record holder this year, that has to do with swimming

[Northern Goblin]

See an edit to the OP before continuing to post.

I'm leaving this open as long as there's grounds for reasonable discussion, if there's any more unfounded accusations and troll baiting I'll be locking this thread.

[TidesOfBlood]

I would not doubt it if she took some of that stuff. I mean didn't Lance Armtrong test positive for drugs? I know he didn't compete in the olympics (i dont think so but I could be wrong) so what's to say that other athletes in the olympics didn't. It's not easy to pass a drug test with drugs in your blood but that does not mean its impossible.

[greysinsanderson]

See an edit to the OP before continuing to post.

I'm leaving this open as long as there's grounds for reasonable discussion, if there's any more unfounded accusations and troll baiting I'll be locking this thread.

lol, so when you can't intelligently argue your position, you infract people? reported for abuse of powers. if a PROFESSIONAL COACH who works with these athletes for 3+ decades isn't enough to suggest cheating, nothing is. if you had any knowledge whatsoever of the olympics you'd know that 5% are caught during the olympics, the other 95% before/after

you should be dealing with the people who get upset that someone who does something suspicious is suspected of doping in a sport known for doping.

how dare you have the nerve to pretend your uninformed, biased and petty opinion is worth more than people who've spent their lives in the sport. shame on you.

[jbhasban]

That's not evidence at all. That is hearsay.

I am not sure you know what hearsay is...

Here is a hint: hearsay is often permitted in court as, guess what? evidence.

[Deleted]

I am not sure you know what hearsay is...

Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience.

In this case that'd be you gathering information from whoever made the claims concerning something of which you have no direct experience.

[greysinsanderson]

I would not doubt it if she took some of that stuff. I mean didn't Lance Armtrong test positive for drugs? I know he didn't compete in the olympics (i dont think so but I could be wrong) so what's to say that other athletes in the olympics didn't. It's not easy to pass a drug test with drugs in your blood but that does not mean its impossible.

it's very easy to pass drug tests. that's why they keep the samples for 8 years, but the IOC is a joke, they're not a well respected organization in the sports world

[KrazyK923]

I find it ultimately hilarious that people are blindly defending this girl when she is accused of doping because she is from the US, but people had no problem doing the exact same thing to the young chinese woman because she was from China.

Christ, people, at least be a little less transparent.

[greysinsanderson]

In this case that'd be you gathering information from whoever made the claims concerning something of which you have no direct experience.

wrong, the opinion of an expert is evidence, you are wrong and he is correct. the people making these accusations are experts regardless of their motives

---------- Post added 2012-08-05 at 12:34 PM ----------

I find it ultimately hilarious that people are blindly defending this girl when she is accused of doping because she is from the US, but people had no problem doing the exact same thing to the young chinese woman because she was from China.

Christ, people, at least be a little less transparent.

i see what you're saying, but are YOU taking into account the history of the teams? us has never had a female swimmer test positive, china had their top swimmer dq'd in march, a 16 year old teammate and world record holder, and about 30 other people on the chinese womens swim team since the 90s, when their government-funded doping program was brought to light by, guess what, accusations

[Northern Goblin]

us has never had a female swimmer test positive

Jessica Hardy.

[Deleted]

wrong, the opinion of an expert is evidence, you are wrong and he is correct. the people making these accusations are experts

"She swam fast so she must be cheating" isn't an expert opinion at all, it is speculative conjecture and there is no way it would stand up in court.

[Xanjori]

wrong, the opinion of an expert is evidence, you are wrong and he is correct. the people making these accusations are experts

I need a way to say this without getting infracted...

An "opinion" is not evidence. An opinion can not be evidence, because its an opinion. If it was evidence it would no longer be an opinion. Also people have a hard time viewing the opinion of someone that is sour because they just lost as anything other than being sour.

[steveyboy]

I seriously don't understand how a 15 year old girl can beat top professional girls in their mid 20's.

In few month she improved her time with more than 10 seconds, it's not possible without doping in my opinion. I have a huge passion for swimming and know how hard it is to improve your personal best. Therefore i seriously doubt Ledecky won fair and square.

Hard work won't do it alone in this case, sorry.

Mod Edit: A reminder to everyone that accusing people of cheating without providing any evidence to support your statement will not be tolerated.

Are you at this again?

After failing to prove the rowing issues as "cheating" your now claiming some american is cheating.

You have failed to bring up any valid sources or proffesional opinions without links to prove what you said.

They have had 14-15 year old gold medalists before.

[jbhasban]

In this case that'd be you gathering information from whoever made the claims concerning something of which you have no direct experience.

What I said was hearsay, yes. What the US coach said saying the race was impossible is not hearsay. It is a professional opinion based upon his observation and experience. I simply assumed people familiar with this controversy would be aware of this professional's opinion. Now, his opinion wasnt stated in court, subject to cross, or under oath so of course it is suspect. That doesn't mean it isnt evidence. Hell, that what I said was hearsay doesnt mean my statement isnt evidence. Evidence is anything that makes it more or less likely that something is true. That I said someone said she cheated certainly makes it more likely that that she did. Maybe not by much but by at least a smidgen. Certainly more likely than if I said everyone agrees she did not cheat.

Honestly, you are arguing with a lawyer over what evidence and hearsay is.

Oh, btw, yes, that coach's opinion would be permitted in court. An expert opinion, by definition, is speculative. It doesn't need to be based on "concrete" evidence. It can be completely circumstantial. Now, you would be best be served arguing that a coach is not an expert in the field of doping. That may or may not be true.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...l-swimmer.html

I would expect a "top" USA coach to at least be familiar enough with the sport and doping in general to give an opinion in court on the likelihood that the girl cheated. Now, I doubt a jury would find his opinion all that persuasive but it would certainly be permitted in court. Whether he would be comfortable giving his opinion in court, on the other hand, is questionable.

[Calgus-CC]

Phelps has more gold medals than anyone in olympic history, and more medals period than anyone....he must be doping too!

/sarcasm


nope, he only smokes pot. get off the girls' case ffs, im pretty sure no trainer/parent is that much of a monster that they'd inject an underaged young girl with PED's knowing full well the very adverse and negative effects they have on someone that isnt fully grown.

Sorry, but to think that age has anything to do with doping is naive. There are multiple documented cases of gymnasts doping before their teens. While the type of drugs that the gymnasts take are different, age, sport, or gender will never affect the desire to win. In many cases the parents are just encouraging the passion displayed by the child. While we may not feel it is morally acceptable, would you tell your child that they can't fulfill their dream?

[greysinsanderson]

I need a way to say this without getting infracted...

An "opinion" is not evidence. An opinion can not be evidence, because its an opinion. If it was evidence it would no longer be an opinion. Also people have a hard time viewing the opinion of someone that is sour because they just lost as anything other than being sour.

an expert's opinion is evidence in a case. it is used to sway a jury/judge in their decision. there would be NO POINT WHATSOEVER to bring an expert to testify under oath during a trial if it meant nothing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_witness

pay attention to the bolded part that says EXPERT EVIDENCE

if you meet sufficient qualifications, your opinion on something is evidence. in some cases it's the only evidence, often when used to evaluate psychological state

[Xanjori]

an expert's opinion is evidence in a case. it is used to sway a jury/judge in their decision. there would be NO POINT WHATSOEVER to bring an expert to testify under oath during a trial if it meant nothing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_witness

pay attention to the bolded part that says EXPERT EVIDENCE

if you meet sufficient qualifications, your opinion on something is evidence. in some cases it's the only evidence, often when used to evaluate psychological state

He is an expert in doping is he?