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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    SW:P refreshing is really pushing mop shadow skillcap to the sky.
    Aside from the clunky collisions with MB cooldown and VT reapplication, there's nothing going on really. And I don't see this being that punitive either. What's more important, I don't see a good way to improve on that. It's not something awesome you're doing there.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    So I was correct?
    Nah, at least you owned up to it. Better than most on the internet.



    Think of it this way:
    If you begin a cast with a Haste buff, but the haste buff finishes before you complete the cast, the cast doesn't lengthen, it stays the same. I assume, and perhaps wrongly, that this applies to SP buffs too. So long as you begin the cast before the said proc/temporary buff finishes, the cast will proceed as though you had the buff.
    It's logical to me, but you might want to do your own testing to be sure. As I said, I'm making assumptions but I'm fairly confident I'm correct here.
    Ok just did some a quick test on a dummy - would encourage other people to test and see if they get the same results:

    a normal VT hitted for 4447dmg each tick.

    a VTcasted with 9-10 secs left on PT resulted in ticks for 4687

    and finally

    a VT casted with 0.5-1 sec left on PT resulted in ticks for 4447 again. i.e. the extra spellpower not taken into account.

    So as I see it, if you wan't VT to gain the benefit of SP buffs make sure you have a least the same remaining time on your SP buffs as the time it takes for the spell to land on the target.

  3. #43
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant View Post
    Ok just did some a quick test on a dummy - would encourage other people to test and see if they get the same results:

    a normal VT hitted for 4447dmg each tick.

    a VTcasted with 9-10 secs left on PT resulted in ticks for 4687

    and finally

    a VT casted with 0.5-1 sec left on PT resulted in ticks for 4447 again. i.e. the extra spellpower not taken into account.

    So as I see it, if you wan't VT to gain the benefit of SP buffs make sure you have a least the same remaining time on your SP buffs as the time it takes for the spell to land on the target.
    Will do my own testing to confirm but cheers for this.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Giant View Post
    Ok just did some a quick test on a dummy - would encourage other people to test and see if they get the same results:

    a normal VT hitted for 4447dmg each tick.

    a VTcasted with 9-10 secs left on PT resulted in ticks for 4687

    and finally

    a VT casted with 0.5-1 sec left on PT resulted in ticks for 4447 again. i.e. the extra spellpower not taken into account.

    So as I see it, if you wan't VT to gain the benefit of SP buffs make sure you have a least the same remaining time on your SP buffs as the time it takes for the spell to land on the target.
    Is it not common knowledge that DoTs/casts are calculated at the end of the cast and not the start?

  5. #45
    Also worth noting / asking, before the patch, you had to re-apply dots to get the benefit of buffs such as PT, OK that's fine, same as before.

    HOWEVER i've not seen an answer and not had chance to test this myself, but pre patch your dots used to be on a "per tick basis" for debuffs on the target, which are different to buffs on the player casting the dot. So, for example, say you cast a SW: Smiley on a target, then say the target is inflicted with the 8% increase magic damage taken debuff halfway through the dot duration, will the dot start to tick harder or do we need to recast the dot? Pre patch the dots used to behave in a way that snapshots your stats at time of casting, but re-calculates damage every tick for debuffs on target.

    This hadn't occurred to me until just now after reading this thread whether this had changed or not, but when I get a chance i'll test this today.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Also worth noting / asking, before the patch, you had to re-apply dots to get the benefit of buffs such as PT, OK that's fine, same as before.

    HOWEVER i've not seen an answer and not had chance to test this myself, but pre patch your dots used to be on a "per tick basis" for debuffs on the target, which are different to buffs on the player casting the dot. So, for example, say you cast a SW: Smiley on a target, then say the target is inflicted with the 8% increase magic damage taken debuff halfway through the dot duration, will the dot start to tick harder or do we need to recast the dot? Pre patch the dots used to behave in a way that snapshots your stats at time of casting, but re-calculates damage every tick for debuffs on target.

    This hadn't occurred to me until just now after reading this thread whether this had changed or not, but when I get a chance i'll test this today.
    Nothing has changed in that terms, I haven't seen any news or any reason for those news to appear in this direction. Buffs are calculated upon cast, effects of debuffs are continuous.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Is it not common knowledge that DoTs/casts are calculated at the end of the cast and not the start?
    No it's really not. Also a surprising number of people never realize that it is slightly better to cast VT first and queue up your sw:p during it's cast time.

  8. #48
    Stood in the Fire Drfireburns's Avatar
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    I haven't had the chance to play my shadow priest much since the patch (he's only lvl 71), but I'm still figuring out the class and rotation again. Was definitely one of the most enjoyable specs in the game pre-patch, IMO.

  9. #49
    I generally start casting VT with about 4 seconds left, then refresh SWP immediately after both will land and continue to tick un-interupted (my world/home latency is normally less than 30). Any shadow priest worth a shit is going to to be using power auras or other mods to track dots and trinket procs. It's not rocket science.

    I'm not sure why ppl keep saying that the new rotation is clunky.. With FDCL+DI its amazingly smooth and you are always doing something. Much more fun than standing around flaying waiting for orbs to proc.
    "You take 4,994,468 boredom damage from daily quests.... You have died."

  10. #50
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremmon View Post
    Any shadow priest worth a shit is going to to be using power auras or other mods to track dots and trinket procs. It's not rocket science.
    You'd be surprised at how many top players won't use any addons at all bar Omen and BigWigs/DBM.
    There is no 'need' to track DoTs and procs through addons at all, and you can play perfectly fine without them.

    I'm not sure why ppl keep saying that the new rotation is clunky.. With FDCL+DI its amazingly smooth and you are always doing something. Much more fun than standing around flaying waiting for orbs to proc.
    FDCL+DI are what make the rotation clunky. The old rotation was smooth in that you weren't mindlessly smashing buttons because everything was proccing, you were following an actual rotation rather than priority-based garbage. The fact that you now can (not saying that I do, or that you should) let DoTs drop off to cast something of a higher priority and it NOT be a dps loss says it all, really.
    While it took a 4set to fix Orbs pre-5.0, I would have the old rotation back any day.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    You'd be surprised at how many top players won't use any addons at all bar Omen and BigWigs/DBM.
    There is no 'need' to track DoTs and procs through addons at all, and you can play perfectly fine without them.
    I do raid with a ret paladin and a warrior who don't use dot timers - that makes sense given their classes - but I don't know a single shadowpriest, warlock or boomkin who (to my knowledge) doesn't use DoT timers for serious raiding and pvp.
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  12. #52
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    I do raid with a ret paladin and a warrior who don't use dot timers - that makes sense given their classes - but I don't know a single shadowpriest, warlock or boomkin who (to my knowledge) doesn't use DoT timers for serious raiding and pvp.
    I raid with another spriest and a warlock who don't.

    Spriest has multiple rank 1s from when we were 25m guild (tbc up to end of 4.2), Warlock is multi-season glad so is used to playing without addons (also multi-rank 1s).
    End of the day, it's not hard to glance at boss debuffs every ~5 seconds or so to check the progress of the debuffs, and once you're completely used to the tick times it becomes second nature anyway.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    I raid with another spriest and a warlock who don't.

    Spriest has multiple rank 1s from when we were 25m guild (tbc up to end of 4.2), Warlock is multi-season glad so is used to playing without addons (also multi-rank 1s).
    End of the day, it's not hard to glance at boss debuffs every ~5 seconds or so to check the progress of the debuffs, and once you're completely used to the tick times it becomes second nature anyway.
    And I've seen Talbadar and Hydra play without addons in PvE too. They're amazing and their awareness and DoT management is top-notch for what they have at their disposal. But because of no addons they sometimes make the wrong decisions/lose their DoT/don't use a spell when it is ready. It has nothing to do with them being bad but playing without addons is playing handicapped when it comes to PvE, where the only thing that matters is doing as much damage as possible.

  14. #54
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    And I've seen Talbadar and Hydra play without addons in PvE too. They're amazing and their awareness and DoT management is top-notch for what they have at their disposal. But because of no addons they sometimes make the wrong decisions/lose their DoT/don't use a spell when it is ready. It has nothing to do with them being bad but playing without addons is playing handicapped when it comes to PvE, where the only thing that matters is doing as much damage as possible.
    I agree, and personally I'm a big fan of the UI you were using through 4.3, but my point was more the fact that you don't need to use addons/DoT timers and so forth to be considered a 'shadow priest worth a shit'. It's helpful sure, but not necessary. The addons don't make the player, after all. Over-reliance on addons is one of my biggest pet peeves in raiding.
    'OMG, DBM didn't tell me I had Fading Light so I didn't hit the button' is possibly the most annoying thing ever when it comes to Ultraxion wipes.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    I agree, and personally I'm a big fan of the UI you were using through 4.3, but my point was more the fact that you don't need to use addons/DoT timers and so forth to be considered a 'shadow priest worth a shit'. It's helpful sure, but not necessary. The addons don't make the player, after all. Over-reliance on addons is one of my biggest pet peeves in raiding.
    'OMG, DBM didn't tell me I had Fading Light so I didn't hit the button' is possibly the most annoying thing ever when it comes to Ultraxion wipes.
    I definitely agree. I have much respect for players who are able to play without addons and are able to follow their rotation well while successfully executing a fight. It just shows that their awareness is amazing and they understand their class.

    I also get annoyed at people who rely too much on their addons and lack awareness as a result and are unable to adapt to new situations. And thanks.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2012-09-04 at 11:04 PM.

  16. #56
    I played without addons for years, however I prefer to use power auras and a custom rebuild of dotimers for my priest and lock.
    "You take 4,994,468 boredom damage from daily quests.... You have died."

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerofpope View Post
    I haven't had the chance to play my shadow priest much since the patch (he's only lvl 71), but I'm still figuring out the class and rotation again. Was definitely one of the most enjoyable specs in the game pre-patch, IMO.
    You stole my avatar! /angry

    I agree with what you said though. Shadow pre-patch was extremely fun in a large number of ways. After the patch I don't have to focus on anything besides the encounter itself, so in that regard it is nicer. However I still like the old more complicated rotation where we actually had to watch Evangelism/Orbs.

  18. #58
    Addons are not required as is, but with default UI being terrible at having all you need in a single place, spreading your attention from the actual situation to far-left and far-right corners of your screen is simply inefficient.
    That said, I raided for three years without addons, including DBM. Although back then I was playing a rogue. Cata shadow would be horrid without trackers in t11 and t12, yet still was only using needtoknow because it's awesome. The fight which made me install DBM was, surprisingly, shannox hc, because you couldn't see a trap under yourself if you were an undead male casting something with legs spread a meter apart and robe covering it completely. I actually blame blizzard for designing encounters with DBM in their mind.

  19. #59
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woaden
    I would rather play with a crutch than hop around on one leg pretending I'm just as capable.
    Addons enhance gameplay. That's why over the years Blizzard has adjusted a number of things in the default UI to make it more like popular addons.

    Most recently Power Auras and Grid are obviously directly ripped off by Blizz.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Addons enhance gameplay. That's why over the years Blizzard has adjusted a number of things in the default UI to make it more like popular addons.

    Most recently Power Auras and Grid are obviously directly ripped off by Blizz.
    Yet they still don't allow us to move and adjust buff icons to somewhere useful, nor actually unit frames. Frames being in top left corner is about the worst place to locate them. They do adjust things according to popular addons, but they seem to be clueless about what UI should actually be all about.

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