I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[RailinOxy80sAllDay]

RailinOxy80sAllDay has spoken, heed his famously prophetic words.

Or, maybe you can't predict the future and entire judgement decisions of a game and it's developers both present and future.

It wouldn't because Blizzard is a business and businesses tend to cater to the majority of the customers, and the majority of customers do not want the old system back.

[Osmeric]

It wouldn't because Blizzard is a business and businesses tend to cater to the majority of the customers, and the majority of customers do not want the old system back.

Yes.

To paraphrase Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his epeen depends upon his not understanding it."

[Akka]

Anyone asking for LFR to be removed is an idiot

I'm proud to call myself an "idiot" then. LFR only serves at cheapening the game.
People who celebrates it didn't like raiding in the first place - ACTUAL raiding, that is, the ESSENCE of raiding, which means socializing with lots of people to use teamplay to progress - and only look for easy epics and a tourist tour, destroying the balance, the fun and the progression of the game in their quest for handouts.

Automated group tools are just the complete opposite of what a MMO is, they are "put bots in my group" fixes for people who actually prefer single player game. That people celebrate their inclusion into a game which very concept was based on interacting with others is just the horrid conclusion of taking an idea and putting it on its head.

[StaeleAilar]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

You pay for server access. You do not pay for content access, just access to the servers where you can choose whether or not you partake in content. If you are too unable to deal with mechanics, then why the hell are you raiding? I know LFR lets you kill stuff without even watching the screen but seriously, how the heck can that be fun? "Casuals" like you who go on the attack immediately are the reason for this fight between "elitists" and yourselves.

[Monkeybrains]

You pay for server access. You do not pay for content access, just access to the servers where you can choose whether or not you partake in content. If you are too unable to deal with mechanics, then why the hell are you raiding? I know LFR lets you kill stuff without even watching the screen but seriously, how the heck can that be fun? "Casuals" like you who go on the attack immediately are the reason for this fight between "elitists" and yourselves.

"Casuals" just pay for "server access"? Pretty sure they pay $15 a month just like everyone else.
Since when did a "raider's" $15 go towards more gameplay and content than a "casual's" $15 a month?

EDIT: Your comment is based on the assumption that a "casual" player is bad and can't learn his class or raid mechanics. That's just a false premise...casual players are those that don't have the time to commit (i.e. jobs, families, spouses, kids, RL hobbies)

Bads are Bads, Not all Casuals are Bads....don't confuse the 2 please.

[Akka]

Nope, it's not at all like that.

You want the perfect metaphor ?
It's this :

Someone doesn't like anything about football. He doesn't like to socialize, because it's a hassle to interact with others. He doesn't want to exercise, because it's tiring. He doesn't want to bother with teamplay, because he sees others as idiots. He doesn't want to free up his time the evening when the football club match happens, because he whines about having a life (implying that other football players have no life, no gf, no work and the like, BTW).
But he wants to be part of the team, and get the payment of the match, and get the honours.
And he requires the school to make it so you can be in the team even if you do nothing of the above. And he asks the school to provides 10 other people for the match whenever he wants to play. And he requires the matches to be only 30 minutes long instead of 90 minutes because he doesn't want to be tied for more than that.

And if someone else points that he's ruining the sport for those who actually like it, and that he doesn't actually like football considering everything about football annoy him, then he starts to insult him and call him "elitists" and "special snowflake" and the like.
Guess who is the entitled jerk between the two ?

THAT is exactly what happened on WoW.

[gamingmuscle]

You want the perfect metaphor ?
It's this :

Someone doesn't like anything about football. He doesn't like to socialize, because it's a hassle to interact with others. He doesn't want to exercise, because it's tiring. He doesn't want to bother with teamplay, because he sees others as idiots. He doesn't want to free up his time the evening when the football club match happens, because he whines about having a life (implying that other football players have no life, no gf, no work and the like, BTW).
But he wants to be part of the team, and get the payment of the match, and get the honours.
And he requires the school to make it so you can be in the team even if you do nothing of the above. And he asks the school to provides 10 other people for the match whenever he wants to play. And he requires the matches to be only 30 minutes long instead of 90 minutes because he doesn't want to be tied for more than that.

And if someone else points that he's ruining the sport for those who actually like it, and that he doesn't actually like football considering everything about football annoy him, then he starts to insult him and call him "elitists" and "special snowflake" and the like.
Guess who is the entitled jerk between the two ?

THAT is exactly what happened on WoW.

That was terrible.

LFR would the random pick up game
Normal the amateur travel league
HM the professional league

While all 3 are playing the same game, the skill and commit requirements are all different. The rewards are all different...even if they are visually similar.

[Akka]

I read your post and my answer was the one above. And it was not a troll post, it was a suggestion but it seems it did not land too well with you.

You read a post that speak entirely about how the fun comes from doing MEANINGFUL PROGRESSION, and you advice to play make-believe in outdated raids ?
How is it even possible ?

And hard encounters alone is not what keeps the best guilds playing. I was in a guild with some of the best WoW players in the world (if you trust wol rankings, at least), most of whom quit during Cata, not because the content wasn't hard enough, but because doing hard content without a sense of progression is boring and not fun.

That's the exact point so many people seem to be totally unable to understand.

No but you can create a difficulty level suitable enough so they can see the raid. No onevis suggesting that evrryone should be facerolling HMs.

There was a difficulty and involvement level that was adequate for people who had not the time or gameplay for raids : 5-men.
Less people required, so easier to set up if you don't have stable schedules.
Shorter, so easier to manage for people who didn't had a lot of time.
Difficulty level either medium (for people who didn't play good enough for harder raid) or challenging (for people who had good gameplay and just had time constraints).

So the casual had their content. So what was the problem ?

Oh, yeah, the problem was that some people had their content, but other people had more : raids, for people who could manage to be better at the game and/or have better time organization, more involvement or whatever. And that was insufferable for them, they needed to have it ALL ! Everything !
Seeing these brat pretending to be the wise guy giving advice of "don't be jealous and don't let what others do bother you" is just golden. They were the ones crying over this exact same thing to begin with.

"Casuals" just pay for "server access"? Pretty sure they pay $15 a month just like everyone else.

And you have access to the exact same content than anyone else.
The fact that you are unable to deal with the content has nothing to do with how much you pay, and everything to do with how you play.
You pay for access to the game, not for winning the game.

If you buy a book and never bother to open it, do you ask for a refund because you got less words out of it than the one who did spent his afternoon reading it ?

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 05:01 PM ----------

That was terrible.

LFR would the random pick up game
Normal the amateur travel league
HM the professional league

While all 3 are playing the same game, the skill and commit requirements are all different. The rewards are all different...even if they are visually similar.

The metaphor is not terrible, it's actually spot on if you bother to think instead of just rejecting it simply because it proves you wrong.

And you can play football in a school club, or in a semi-professionnal club, or at the international level.
And still in all these cases :

- You have people to socialize with - or do you think you can just enter the changing room of a team, insult or ignore others and still be part of it ?
- You have to learn how to play the game - or do you think you can just ignore the rules of the game just because you don't want to bother to learn them ? Or do you think you won't be a load and a PITA for others if you just do idiotic stuff on the field ?
- You have to follow a schedule - or do you think you can require other people to just be summoned when you want to play ?
- You have to free some time - or do you think they would just cut the length of a match for you ?
- You have to put some efforts in it - efforts is not a dirty word meaning "it's a second work". Effort simply means involvement in the game, and is actually a good indicator of fun. No efforts only imply lazyness.

Yeah, even an amateur, laid-back, play-for-fun club will still requires all this. NOT because the players are "elitists" or "want to be special snowflakes" or other idiocies that hypocrites invent to project their own inadequacies onto others, but simply because all these constraints are WHAT A TEAM-BASED GAME IS ABOUT. And who would be idiotic enough to pretend that raiding is not a team-based game as its core ?
And even with such constraints, it doesn't require you to be a no-life, nor to forgo significant others, children or work.

[gamingmuscle]

You read a post that speak entirely about how the fun comes from doing MEANINGFUL PROGRESSION, and you advice to play make-believe in outdated raids ?
How is it even possible ?

Fun and meaningful progression is a subjective thing. What is fun or meaningful for you will not translate to everyone. So you cannot say LFR is not fun or that is does not provide meaningful progression for everyone that utilizes it.

That's the exact point so many people seem to be totally unable to understand.

I understand your opinion. But it is not a fact. LFR can be fun for me to randomly faceroll though it. Challenge doesn't automatically make something good, and the lack of doesn't make it bad either.

There was a difficulty and involvement level that was adequate for people who had not the time or gameplay for raids : 5-men.

5 mans isn't the solution to solving the raid dilema for those that will not/cannot do normal/HM for whatever reason.

Oh, yeah, the problem was that some people had their content, but other people had more : raids, for people who could manage to be better at the game and/or have better time organization, more involvement or whatever. And that was insufferable for them, they needed to have it ALL ! Everything !
Seeing these brat pretending to be the wise guy giving advice of "don't be jealous and don't let what others do bother you" is just golden. They were the ones crying over this exact same thing to begin with.

The problem was a large portion of the player base was not seeing some expensive content. They needed a way to get a higher percentage of people consuming it. LFR the raid lite experience.

And you have access to the exact same content than anyone else.
The fact that you are unable to deal with the content has nothing to do with how much you pay, and everything to do with how you play.
You pay for access to the game, not for winning the game.

Access was never the problem, but it is a common bad argument people use.

If you buy a book and never bother to open it, do you ask for a refund because you got less words out of it than the one who did spent his afternoon reading it ?

Another terrible analogy.

[Monkeybrains]

If you buy a book and never bother to open it, do you ask for a refund because you got less words out of it than the one who did spent his afternoon reading it?[COLOR="red"]

NO not asking for a refund, just the option to read the book at my leisure and not be told that I can ONLY look at the cover because I don't have the time to consume it as others might.

Again the assumption is being made that time commitment = ability to play the game. There is a mixing of arguments, I agree there are people who want everything for nothing but that's not what I'm talking about.

[zeropeorth]

I think most half-assed serious guilds/raiders do 2-3 nights a week. Not that bad. Many are not hard-core but are 'raiders". 2-3 evenings a week is not much but that is probably the norm now-a-days.

You still don't seem to get it. The people saying they don't have the time, mean they can't commit to being online for 4 hours 2-3x a week. With LFR, those people (which INCLUDES past serious raiders who still love wow, but have real life that should ALWAYS be a priority), can log in, queue up for LFR, and within an hour, get to see a hint of what 'real' raiders experience.

See, the point you don't understand, the first couple months of Heroic raiding IS for the real raiders. If you can't clear it within a few weeks of the top 100, then you need to realize, you and your group isn't as good as you think, and compared to the top 100, YOU ARE CASUAL/BAD; though if they are decent people, they don't name call, they respect the level you play, even though they are far above it.

The problem with the 'elitist' attitude is the lack of respect those people have for themselves outside the achievement of downing the content early. You don't see Michael Jordan talking shit to people with less skill than him ... in fact, a lot of pros in sports go help kids and visit training camps to INSPIRE those with less talent or those learning the game.

If the 'pro' wow players would, instead of being complete arrogant pricks, would instead, help the community, we'd still have a community. Simple as that. Who wants to be part of a community that just trolls and insults? That is where all your raiders have gone, you've pushed them away before they had a chance to shine.

Facts are, people will leave, even the best players, for whatever reason they have. If you treat upcoming players like dirt, then you are only decreasing your pool.

Top tier raiders should lead by example (being good people) and help their communities. Once you have stuff on farm, take alts and help improve the lesser skilled/organized guilds get better. More competition on your realm can only make the future races to realm firsts more exciting.

Instead, all we get is more division and name calling. I've just come back, but considering leaving again, just because you can't find too many people who have the spirit of the game that used to be there, before all this elitist 'crap' started snowballing out of control.



The spirit of it comes down to what you say raiding is about in your edit, but it doesn't mesh with the attitude of superiority. Always remember, there will always be someone better than you, no matter how good you believe you and your group to be.


LFR may not be real raiding, but for those paying the same fee as you, they deserve to see it at the level they can play. You are talking about a consumer product, one that charges a monthly fee ... if those so-called casuals decided they weren't getting their money's worth, then you will eventually NOT HAVE any raids, because you won't have a server to log in to.


LFR isn't about loot, it is about people seeing the work that went into the game, experiencing it at their level of capability, and increasing their value for the money they spend ... and in this economy, value for dollar is very important when dealing with limited expendable income.

BTW, at any level of skill, if you are raiding solely for loot, you are doing it for less than worthy reasons. It should be about the teamwork. It should be about the challenge. It should be about fun.

It shouldn't be about exclusivity. It shouldn't be about loot. It shouldn't be about selfishness. It shouldn't be about being a special snowflake.

Your opinion is yours, and you have every right to it, but opinions don't always have a right or wrong, but they sure can be practical or impractical for the idea it is based on.

WoW was made as a less grindy, more accessible game. Period. That is fact. It was to be an easier game to play than EQ, more forgiving. Understand what WoW was always meant to be, and you will relax a bit.

What they are trying to do is ... Give everyone a piece of the pie.

Again, if you can't beat the boss (minus LK) before the debuffs/buffs; then you aren't really as good as you think, and you NEED them. The top guilds are so good, they can clear heroics like it was LFR, without the nerfs.


Problem with communities in general (look at u.s. elections), people jump on bandwagons, popularity and following the crowd in their wool covered skin.

Instead of taking away from people, how about finding solutions that work for everyone?

Simple solution ... don't nerf heroic raids, ever. You worry about your own accomplishments, and encourage/help others when you see it (like seeing a destro lock spamming shadow bolt pre-5.0), be a positive influence in your community and encourage others to be the same. THAT will bring your server back together, dismissiveness or defaming people who don't know about anything outside of logging in won't help.

I would've never improved, if I didn't get recruited into a guild of decent people at level 20 or so when first playing. I had someone take me to a dummy and show me what it would be like at max level. Then when I hit max level, they spent time with me on the dummies explaining the priority and why you do stuff ... instead of just saying lolnoob lrn2play or sending me to a website ... which for new players can be quite overwhelming.

The sense of community starts with YOU. If you can't take 5 mins to help someone, but would rather take 5 seconds to defame them ... YOU are the problem. It really is that simple.


I watched on my old server, the shared lockouts basically destroy the community. Top guilds regularly used the 10m runs to find new recruits for slots or new raid groups. I saw more people take alts down to lower guilds to help build them up. I don't see these things happen any longer.

It is sad. But really, it is all the community's fault. We downward spiraled into this disgusting habit of disrespect, greed, and instant gratification.

If you are willing to be a part of the positive change, then, you really can't complain.

Just remember, it is a game, if you don't like LFR, don't do it, but also, if you don't like cheeseburgers, you don't tell McDonald's to take it off the menu because only hardcore meat lovers eat double quarters. They would think you were a nutjob.

Maybe, they should make challenge mode raids as well, so once the 'elitists' finish their heroic raids ... they can have something very finely tuned that could never be out-geared to fool around in.

I just know the best solution isn't to take more stuff away. If only the 2% played, you'd have only 200k subs, and that isn't enough to support xpacs or raids of any kind long term, and customer service and forums would be shit. So, let the bad 50% have their LFR, let the other 48% (probably incl OP, because people nearly always over-esitimate their abilities, no offense) have their normal and heroic boss attempts.



I personally think, play how you want, have fun; it is the purpose of the game. If you don't have fun, you can take a break or quit, your choice. Positive attitudes across the board would make everyone's time in game more enjoyable. Being helpful will make the 'bads' have more fun, and improve. It is amazing the excitement and thanks you get when you help someone clueless. remember, you had to log in and level your first toon at some point as well. People who started in vanilla didn't have nearly as many resources as they do now, and in general, true vanilla players (not the fake ones on forums) are some of the NICEST and most helpful players you'll meet in game.

[Akka]

Fun and meaningful progression is a subjective thing. What is fun or meaningful for you will not translate to everyone. So you cannot say LFR is not fun or that is does not provide meaningful progression for everyone that utilizes it.

You gave ME an advice, so it stands to reason that this advice should be tailored to my tastes. It's pretty clear what they are if you read the message. So it still doesn't make any sense you gave that advice considering the premises.

5 mans isn't the solution to solving the raid dilema for those that cannot do normal/HM for whatever reason.

There is no dilemma : if you don't have time for a group activity, you don't do it. If you're bad at a game, you improve. You don't remove core component of an activity in order that people who wouldn't like/bother/manage with this activity will be able to call the debased version the same and do it.

"I'd like to play tennis, but I can't hold a racket and can't manage to play for more than 10 minutes"
"Okay, we'll then change the rules of tennis so that it uses a bigger ball and you can shoot it with your foot, and we'll limit the time of a match to 10 minutes"

That's just ridiculous.

The problem was a large portion of the player base was not seeing some expensive content. They needed a way to get a higher percentage of people consuming it. LFR the raid lite experience.

So basically :
"I don't have the time or gameplay to see all the content, so the content should be shortened in order that I can see it all, and f*** the others who had more time and/or were better players"

Access was never the problem, but it is a common bad argument people use.

Another terrible analogy.

You're right, access was not the problem. Entitled whiners that want everything are the problem.
And you may call it a terrible analogy, but it's exactly the situation that we had : everyone had bought the same content (the book). But some complained they couldn't read complex words, or that there was too much pages to read to finish the book in one hour, so they threw a tantrum for the book to be dumbed down and shortened to their level.

I dare you to find a real difference between what happened to WoW and this analogy or the one with the sport club.

NO not asking for a refund, just the option to read the book at my leisure and not be told that I can ONLY look at the cover because I don't have the time to consume it as others might.

And who exactly prevented you from raiding ?
Who prevented you from opening the book and read past the cover ?

Many good guilds managed to progress with one or two raids a week. If you consider that it's still too much to ask, why are you even looking at big team activities ?
If you don't like running, why are you asking to do a Marathon ?

Again the assumption is being made that time commitment = ability to play the game. There is a mixing of arguments, I agree there are people who want everything for nothing but that's not what I'm talking about.

If you pay attention, you'll notice I used a "/", so a "or", not an equality.
"not the time OR not the gameplay ability"
And to be honest, people have time to watch TV for hours on end. People find time to play sport. Most people actually HAVE the time (save on the Internet of course, where EVERYONE just works 14 hours a day before having sex for 4 hours with the GF and of course partying every evening with the friends and so on, so well they can barely scrap 20 minutes to play, they have a life you see ! And still, the AVERAGE time spent before TV is dwarfing even hardcore raiding schedule, go figure), just not the commitment - it's all fine, everyone has his priority, but what's not fine is when you requires the rest of the world to change to fits your priority, instead of just accepting that having different priorities mean you won't be able to have it all everywhere.

[Daws001]

So...what's wrong with HMs if you're a "raider"? Seems like it fits the need. Considering that there are few guilds that clear it w/o buffs/debuffs, seems to be working as intended (providing really challenging content that you have to organize and sweat through). I get the complaints about HM raiders feeling compelled to also do LFR (maybe share a lockout with it, idk..I'm sure there are some HM raiders that would hate that though).

Mostly this just seems to be one type of player wanting to have tangible, in-game proof that they're better or more dedicated to the game. Crippling LFR and Normal difficulty raids would accomplish that. I've seen suggestions about getting rid of loot from LFR. None of these make sense of course and will piss off and alienate a lot of players. And it's obvious why Blizz isn't going to do it just to make some players feel superior.

I mean...come on. None of this is rational or good business: I'm going to gut popular forms of raiding, which gets more people to see the content we spent buttloads of money, time, and resources on, just so a smaller % of the player base can feel superior and flaunt it.

[Osmeric]

THAT is exactly what happened on WoW.

No, that was also a ridiculous metaphor. The crucial point is the difference in business models, between an MMO and a school.

[Grogo]

Again:: A point I would like to be made clear regarding Looking for Raid. One, it is not actually raiding. Typically it's group that is formed into a cesspool, the cesspool then zergs a boss. There is no team work, people are usually ignorant to others , sometimes in the most vile ways. It is not about seeing 'content", people can't even say that any more with a straight look on their face. LFR is so players can get loot the fastest, easiest way possible and in turn, have fooled themselves into believing LFR is 'raiding". You will see the worst of people in LFR, you will never ever see the best out of people. LFR is the opposite of raiding. So to be blunt, if you do LFR and have been arguing in this thread about that being your 'raid"...stop it. It is not raiding. Let's stop calling it raiding. Think of a new name. Maybe "looking-to get-loot-easy-while-being-a-dick -to-others". Too long maybe.

Going back to my original post, I did say BC was the pinnacle of raiding, I still stand by that. It was great, I loved it, others loved it (even casuals). In today's market, there can be made room for casuals at the start. They then will learn if raiding is for them and continue on..or not. Either you want to raid for real or you want to pretend. If you want to raid and think LFR is raiding, you are only fooling yourself.

====

Also, this ha nothing to do with elite raiders, just raiding. You either want to raid, or you want to be fooled that you are raiding.

[Monkeybrains]

Again:: A point I would like to be made clear regarding Looking for Raid. One, it is not actually raiding. Typically it's group that is formed into a cesspool, the cesspool then zergs a boss. There is no team work, people are usually ignorant to others , sometimes in the most vile ways. It is not about seeing 'content", people can't even say that any more with a straight look on their face. LFR is so players can get loot the fastest, easiest way possible and in turn, have fooled themselves into believing LFR is 'raiding". You will see the worst of people in LFR, you will never ever see the best out of people. LFR is the opposite of raiding. So to be blunt, if you do LFR and have been arguing in this thread about that being your 'raid"...stop it. It is not raiding. Let's stop calling it raiding. Think of a new name. Maybe "looking-to get-loot-easy-while-being-a-dick -to-others". Too long maybe.

Going back to my original post, I did say BC was the pinnacle of raiding, I still stand by that. It was great, I loved it, others loved it (even casuals). In today's market, there can be made room for casuals at the start. They then will learn if raiding is for them and continue on..or not. Either you want to raid for real or you want to pretend. If you want to raid and think LFR is raiding, you are only fooling yourself.

====

Also, this ha nothing to do with elite raiders, just raiding. You either want to raid, or you want to be fooled that you are raiding.

Ignorance is bliss??

I'm confused...why do you care if people do LFR in a casual "cesspool" environment? (Some do it for time constraints, others are baddies who just want inferior loot.)

Whether someone does LFR in a casual setting should have no bearing on you clearing Normal and HM modes on your way to epic loots, titles, mounts and stroking your epeen while you stand in Org/SW waiting for your next raid.

[Grogo]

Ignorance is bliss??

I'm confused...why do you care if people do LFR in a casual "cesspool" environment? (Some do it for time constraints, others are baddies who just want inferior loot.)

Whether someone does LFR in a casual setting should have no bearing on you clearing Normal and HM modes on your way to epic loots, titles, mounts and stroking your epeen while you stand in Org/SW waiting for your next raid.

Do it all you want, knock yourself out, just take the word raiding out. I am not saying raiding has to be so fucking hard, but pissing away what made it great in the past is wrong.

[Monkeybrains]

Do it all you want, knock yourself out, just take the word raiding out. I am not saying raiding has to be so fucking hard, but pissing away what made it great in the past is wrong.

So how does LFR impact your Normal and HM progression experience? You still get to flaunt your progression and shinies in the face of those that do LFR.

I'm not calling LFR "raiding", as I definitely know the difference.
Call LFR LFILAEZMC instead ("Looking for Inferior Loot and EZ Mode Content") for all I care.

[Deleted]

So how does LFR impact your Normal and HM progression experience? You still get to flaunt your progression and shinies in the face of those that do LFR.

I'm not calling LFR "raiding", as I definitely know the difference.
Call LFR LFILAEZMC instead ("Looking for Inferior Loot and EZ Mode Content") for all I care.

Perhaps nope... But look at the other side.
Less recruitment....
Less guilds....
More single player mode....
Less subscribers overral since playing and mmoprg game to find yourself as playing alone is quite...unworthy...

[Monkeybrains]

Perhaps nope... But look at the other side.
Less recruitment....
Less guilds....
More single player mode....
Less subscribers overral since playing and mmoprg game to find yourself as playing alone is quite...unworthy...

This I can agree with. I think Blizzard was faced with a few challenges with their player base over the years.

1. There is a subset of users that have been playing since Vanilla / TBC that have grown up and gotten jobs, spouses, kids and the like and have had to re-arrange priorities but still like to login and see what's going on in Azeroth when they can.

2. Blizzard also needed to attract new users that didn't play from the beginning. They knew that new players may not like the old model, and tried to offer them something in between.

3. As the player base starting consuming content and rolling alts, (this became a past time for lots) the old model didn't lend itself well to having an Alt. I mean who wants to grind attunements, rep etc on more than 1 character? Seriously...poke my eyes out!

4. The old model worked great when people had 1 or 2 toons and the world of Azeroth was new.

Let's face it I'd say a good percentage of the player base has been playing for several years and lots of us are looking for a less time consuming option to the game. Normals and HM's progression is still there for lots of players but you can't expect to have people commit 15+ hours a week to a game for 7+ years (that's 5,460 hours or 227.5 days) ouch!