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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    You see the tree but you miss the forest. After 7 years the difference from vanilla beta of what you are supposed to do with your CPs is..... There is no difference!

    Every spec keeps snd up, every spec is using rupture and every spec has evisc ( same as envenom). The only difference right now is how you create CPs. For every spec you get 1 extra button mechanic.
    So you get a dispatch proc, an RS every 18 secs and a SD every min. This is how the class has evolved after 7 years. Now take a look at warriors, rets, hunters and the much younger DKs and maybe you will get to see what we mean by homogenized and archaic playstyle and lack of evolution.

    In my opinion it is that bad as many claim that it is. I agree with the moto that ' if its not broken dont try to fix it ' but the question here is that if in this case its true.

    Remember its not about whether you or me like or find it convenient or have simply get used to playstyle. It is about that after 7 years the playstyle of the class has evolved over 1 button per spec.
    But see, there was evolution. That one extra button you mentioned, did we have that in TBC? Nope. Though btw you seem to be forgetting hemo as sub which you do want to use even if you are behind afaik which I would say is the 'extra button' not shadow dance. Yeah, we are on the short end compared to those you mentioned, but there is a huge difference between 'lack of evolution' and 'less evolved than them'.

    The problem here is the underlying premise is false, and therefore anything following is logically trivial because if statement X is false then saying X implies Y is always going to be true no matter what you want Y to be. In other words, nothing useful could actually come from the OP's argument.

  2. #22
    Well, it's time to destroy Slice and Dice for Assassination and Subtlety.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  3. #23
    Recuperate is now shit for both Combat and Subtlety. Just throwing that out there.
    Last edited by Ohleemar; 2012-09-10 at 03:05 AM. Reason: typo

  4. #24
    Time to implement a ranged spec for Rogues, Blizz! :0

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by AmerikanRejekt View Post
    Time to implement a ranged spec for Rogues, Blizz! :0
    I don't really want a ranged spec, but I do think if you are going to spend your level 90 talent on a ranged attack and another talent on DT that doing say 50% of our melee damage at range is reasonable which I somehow doubt we come anywhere close to.

  6. #26
    I think the OP's main point is that all rogues pretty much use the same exact finishers, which is a bit unfun I think. Going into the other examples, mages all get different spells and flavors, sure at the end of the day it's pretty much cosmetic since all buttons are pretty much meant to kill the enemy, but rogues lack that; the only thing that really varies is what CP builder they use (Mut, Backstab, SS), what damaging finisher to use, and what finisher refreshes automatically (Was it rupture for mut and snd for sub? Kinda forgot being combat so long, as combat has nothing that refreshes). But I mean, to that effect they could rename the finishers for each spec to sound more...uh...I dunno, like it's something they'd use, but in the end again it's kind of a pointless cosmetic change in that regard. Again like mages for example, sure each has different sounding spells with fireball, ice-whatever and arcane-something (again this is oversimplifying it, fuck if I care what a mage uses), but the 3 are their basic opening damage spells which lead into stronger ones from procs or stacks. I mean, you'd have to scrap and rework quite a bit to make each spec play differently for rogue, but that could lead up to the warlock scenario where they keep changing stuff.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    But see, there was evolution. That one extra button you mentioned, did we have that in TBC? Nope. Though btw you seem to be forgetting hemo as sub which you do want to use even if you are behind afaik which I would say is the 'extra button' not shadow dance. Yeah, we are on the short end compared to those you mentioned, but there is a huge difference between 'lack of evolution' and 'less evolved than them'.

    The problem here is the underlying premise is false, and therefore anything following is logically trivial because if statement X is false then saying X implies Y is always going to be true no matter what you want Y to be. In other words, nothing useful could actually come from the OP's argument.

    What are you on about?

    I said it clearly and you ignore it Sess, i don't know what defensive agenda you have i am not trying to troll or cause hassle,
    You are trivializing what i said, which is that each spec varies so little that they could simply become 1 spec less 3.

    It seems the only reason it stays the way it is, is because other people have 3 specs, i went on to say what if we where forced to have 4 specs and joked about how silly that would be.
    Last edited by Superp; 2012-09-15 at 01:40 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    What are you on about?

    I said it clearly and you ignore it Sess, i don't know what defensive agenda you have i am not trying to troll or cause hassle

    You are trivializing what i said, which is that each spec varies so little that they could simply become 1 spec less 3

    It seems the only reason it stays the way it is, is because other people have 3 specs, i went on to say what if we where forced to have 4 specs
    and joked about how silly that would be.

    This XYZ jargon seems like corporate talk to me, correct me if i am wrong Sess but i think bliz is already active in this thread
    You also said that you can make a macro so that one key is mut/ss/backstab and so on and you could play all the specs the same and wouldn't know the difference if you turned off recount and such. That is completely wrong though as each spec does have several differences you do need to monitor to play them correctly, and that is still excluding the long cd's.

    They also play enough differently that people have clear favorite specs. I for one find assassination extremely boring due to the incredibly long amount of time I have to wait to get 55 energy to mutilate. Most pve rogues I have talked to have either 1 spec they like more than the other 2 or 1 spec they like less than the other 2. So say you fuse our specs into 1, which one will you have it play like? Everyone who had a preference for either of the other 2 specs will certainly be displeased with that then.

    Why do you think blizz is active in this thread? You're joking right? And I guess a simple explanation of the jargon as you put it would be that you said they all play the same which is false, therefore any implication you draw from that is automatically true no matter how absurd it is which means that entire line of thought is worthless. A simple example would be saying 'the sky is green therefore aliens live on mars' which is actually a true implication because the first part is false.

  9. #29
    I said each spec could be divided by a simple talent(perk),
    Which is why i questioned the need for 3 specs, clearly blizzard recognized that some classes have a need for more than 3 specs eg Druids

    And based on this, the rogue class could be cut down to 1 talent tree.
    I would not remove any ability's or functions just the need for 3 redundant specs which pretty much play the same

    How is my premise flawed

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-10 at 04:57 AM ----------

    The talent trees seem to be filling a role, tank, healer, melee and ranged dps

    There are no other roles to fill, what i was getting at is that each of our specs and ability's are so recycled that like 90% of our game play involves pushing the exact same buttons why could they not simply do away with the extra branches and i think i said "Fat space butter fly"

    And simple have 1 pure rogue class with talents (perks) which define your game play, I just don't see a need for these "Extra" specs when we could simply chose our perks, I just don't get it
    Last edited by Superp; 2012-09-15 at 01:43 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    What's not to understand?
    Assassination = Poison damage, mutilates
    Combat = extremely fast play (almost GCD locked), finishers lower remaining duration of CD's
    Subtlety = Constant stream of CP, big finishers, focus on stealth
    I'm ALWAYS Energy starved as combat in pvp. It's the most dull game play ever, Besides CD uptime.

    Sub is the shadow games spec to me. High burst, quick paced, high control. Always been my favorite spec since vanilla.
    Assassination has changed a lot. But i really like the play at the moment. Dirty Tricks really makes this spec for me atm.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    nonsense

    I said each spec could be divided by a simple perk
    No, what you said was this:

    Play the class with numbers hidden

    create macros with /start attack and abilitys, chose icons that look the same for all specs, so same icon for SS mutilate and for backstab

    Do the same for all other abilitys like slice and dice and rupture

    Do the same for all finishers

    Hide the dps numbers and healing numbers from poping up in your UI (so you can see and avoid the fire)

    What do we get?

    We get a rogue that plays the same regardless of spec
    Which as I explained, is false. The only exception you made were for some cooldown based moves. There is quite a bit more than that which is why it is false and your premise is flawed.

    Which is why i questioned the need for 3 specs, clearly blizzard recognized that some classes have a need for more than 3 specs eg Druids

    And based on this, the rogue class could be cut down to 1 talent tree.

    I would not remove any ability's or functions just the need for 3 redundant specs which pretty much play the same

    How is my premise flawed

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-10 at 04:57 AM ----------

    The talent trees seem to be filling a role, tank, healer, melee and ranged dps

    There are no other roles to fill, what i was getting at is that each of our specs and ability's are so recycled that like 90% of our game play involves pushing the exact same buttons why could they not simply do away with the extra branches and i think i said "Fat space butter fly"

    And simple have 1 pure rogue class with perks which define your game play

    I just don't see a need for these "Extra" talent trees when we could simply chose our perks

    I just don't get it
    But see they play differently enough people have favorites. If you cut it down to 1 spec, there is a lot that gets lost. You could alternatively merge them into some hybrid spec, but odds are not everyone will prefer that hybrid play style over the 3 we have now (and would in that instance have lost). And how are you not going to remove something? You want us to mutilate, hemo for the bleed, RvS, SS for the random 20% bonus cp, blindside procs with blindside under 35%, manage the envenom buff, and every single other mechanic from all 3 specs at once? That would not only be extremely clunky, but how are you suggesting they balance that so all the mechanics are still used?

    But see, as I said, that entire line of thought is worthless because your premise is false. You are assuming it is true that they play nearly identically (or at least enough you couldn't tell them apart) and therefore that you could simply merge them. However, that is false as they do play differently enough to tell apart, and neither your absurd claims or mine about what would happen given that assumption have any value because the assumption is false.

    What extra talent trees? Do you actually play wow currently or are you some one that quit a while ago and is complaining about a game they don't play? We have 1 just like everyone else. And for those classes with multiple roles, their talent trees are not focused on filling "a" roll. Check out the druid one. You could certainly debate how useful some of those are, but they are clearly designed to accommodate multiple roles.

  12. #32
    If you are going to quote me perhaps the full post would be better rather then cutting and snipping and presenting information out of context,The beginning of my op was to provide context to put the idea across not to categorically say that all specs are the same.

    Yes i play world of warcraft, i have played for many years, Irrelevant all of it though
    To me The specs all feel the same now, they all seem bland, we share tier gear we talents(perks) we share weapons, everyone uses the same poisons, We all use Rupture, We all use Slice and Dice, We all gen combos, We all use finishers, We get unique gimmicks

    90% of game play for rogues is the exact same, argue these facts all you want they don't change.I suggest that it would be easier to simply roll all specs into one and define your own play style

    You seem to think this is crazy and i am wrong some how, some how my suggestion is wrong,
    Last edited by Superp; 2012-09-15 at 01:46 AM.

  13. #33
    I didn't quote the entire thing because of size. I already had massive quote blocks with the end left off (partially because you put empty spaces after every single sentence for some reason). Also
    The only thing that changes are cool downs, mutilates hunger for blood or what ever its called, combats blade flurry and subs dance mode central
    is the only thing in your OP that had to do with your underlying assumptions. The rest of that post was your conclusions asking 'why' and if it is 'pointless' and none of that part was relevant anyway. I also alluded to the line I left off, so I didn't think it necessary.

    I questioned whether or not you actually play because you seem to think there exists at least one class with more than 1 talent tree. That is not the case. Also your 90% is just a made up statistic, it doesn't help your case, especially when you on the next line refer to "these facts" which logically would include your 90% number that has no basis. Yeah, we all use SnD, rupture, generate combo points, and use finishers. Those unique gimmicks you mention are what make them different.

    What I think is "wrong" is that you are using this idea that we "play the same regardless of spec" as the underlying assumption on which to base your argument that the specs should be merged. That has basically the same value to your argument as you switching to "the sky is blue, so the rogue's 3 specs should be merged into one." They don't play the same, therefore anything you say based on that has absolutely no value. I do disagree with your suggestion, but the suggestion itself I don't think is "wrong."

  14. #34
    Which button do you push for combat? Which buttons do you push for mutilate? Which buttons do you push for sub?

    Apart from cooldowns and wait times the specs play out the same. Keep up your buff, keep up your debuff, get combo points and do finishers.

    Ill say it again long cooldowns and gimics can not justify 3 entire specs, It would be easier to just say right rogues have 1 spec and have every cool ability up for grabs on the perk system

    It might not change a dam thing combat wise but the point is being, 3 specs are not justifiable for simple gimics
    Last edited by Superp; 2012-09-15 at 01:48 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    Play the class with numbers hidden

    (...rest of whine...)
    Okay Superb, so according to you, there is no, or negligible difference between rogue specs...lets have a look at that:

    Does Sub have a Proc on its main CP - Generator?
    Do Assassination rogues have to take a dmg-CD-resetting mechanic into account?
    Do I have to pool energy and use my main finisher before spaming FoK, to max out poison procs in an AoE situation as combat?
    Do I have to take HaT - generated CP into account as Assa or Combat?
    Do I have to time Shadowdance with my DeepInsight status to maximize its efficiency?

    Rupture and SnD are both falling off, with 1,5 sec left...you have 4 CPs, but you are energy starved...does it matter which one you refresh first, depending on spec, or is there no difference?

    Speaking of CP generation...every spec uses two main CP generators (ignoring OutOfStealth-abilities) but...is Hemo only used on a Mob below 35%? Does it make sense to spam RvS like Backstab? Is there a differerence in the numeric dmg I lose when using a Mutilate or a Sinister Strike at 5 CP by mistake?


    Sorry mate, but your statement is simply wrong. Yes, the rogue is a pure dps, and a pure melee...therefore, naturally, our specs look similar at first glance...in each of our three specs we use styles to generate Combo Points, which we use to power selfbuffs and finishers. And thats where the similarity ends.
    Of course, you CAN chose to play all the specs the same way, just as you wrote...but that would result in numbers which will get you kicked out of even the worst group fairly quickly.


    Oh, and here is something to think about:

    All three Hunter Specs use a pet and a variety of ranged attacks to set debuffs and interact with the generation of the hunters focus.

    All three Mage specs use cast-time-spells and some kind of proc that enables them to use additional (often instant) spells. They also have debuffs.

    All three Warlock specs use cast-time-spells, DoTs, procs, internal dmg CDs and a pet.

    All Heal-specs ingame have at least one HoT, one long cheap heal, one long powerful costly heal, one costly flash heal and one AoE heal.

    All Tank specs have mitigation CDs and a taunt.


    If this game is not complex enough for your highly-advanced mind, go to russia and start a chess-career. But I have to warn you: there are only 64 squares, and they are not moving.
    Last edited by Sorzzara; 2012-09-10 at 07:44 AM.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  16. #36
    If a vanilla rogue came back to game the biggest hit for them would be shadowstep and removal of positional requirements for mutilate. They would have no problem or questions whatsoever about how to produce CPs and what to do with them. The only difference between 3 specs is 1 button.

    Going from frost to UH DK is like playing another class. Same goes to warriors and warlocks. The argument is that every class has evolved after 7 years of game in unique ways but rogue changes are minimal to nonexistent. There is much room for improvement but no action taken.

    Even if by some fallacy people still cant see that after 7 years they are still using rupture snd and evis and they still produce CPs with SS, mut and BS, there is no way to deny that every spec is using same abilities with different names and even the latter isnt even always true.

    We have made a big deal out of nowhere because some people disagree about the obvious and true fact that every spec uses same finishers and they are by one button different on how to create CPs.

    You do expect that every spec will have energy, CP builders and finishers but this doesnt mean that the only difference should be RS button changed to dispatch or backstab and SS button changed to hemmo or mutilate when you change specs.

    Dispatch, RS and shadow dance is what separates 2005 and 2012 rogues.

  17. #37
    I dont really see the point in complaining. What do you want to be done?
    More abilities? Finishers we have a lot of different ones already, or do you want a new rupture that does fire damage with a new fancy name?
    And if all specs are the same, why do i dislike combat, but not the other two? Its about the feeling of the specs.

    Assassination places high value in managing your envenom buffs and energy pooling is an added extra you can do if you know what youre doing. We have Dispatch procs to watch out for and keep up rupture while managing said envenom uptime.

    Combat places a big part on high energy regeneration which leads to spamming a lot of abilities, defenitely not the same way assassination works. Frankly, i dislike combat because it makes my finger hurt from pressing that bloody Sinister Strike button. It uses 3 finishers, and keeps Revealing Strike up for additional combo point generation.
    Keyword for that additional ability: Upkeep. Assassination only uses Dispatch as a proc, or at 35%, at which Dispatch totally replaces Mutilate, so it doesnt fill the same function as Revealing Strike does. Combat also has that Bandits Guile buff to keep track of and sync its cooldowns with, which reset fairly fast due to restless blades. Thus combat also places a higher focus on cooldown management.

    Subtlety doesnt have the high energy regen as combat, thus it uses less combo point generators and is not as spammy, a bit like assassination perhaps. Another similarity to assassination is the energy pooling, but it mostly only occurs while waiting for that last HaT point, or just before Shadow Dance. Due to the combo point generation from HaT, and the lack of envenom upkeep, subtlety is a bit more spammy than assassination, but less so than combat.
    Subtlety, just like combat keeps up a debuff. In this case, its Hemorrhage. Sure it keeps up the same finishers as combat aswell, but the playstyle revolves a lot more around waiting for good stuff to happen, like assassination.
    Lastly, subtlety is so-so on the cooldown front. It doesnt use as much as combat, but more so than assassination.

    What am i trying to get at? Theyre not as similar as you think. The playstyles are quite different and you cant just go assassination or subtlety, and try to play them as if you were combat.
    Sure, the finishers are similar. They all use Rupture, they all keep up SnD, and they all have an "instant damage" finisher. But what do you want? Spells with different names that do the same thing?
    The playstyles differ, and thats what matters the most. All pure dps classes have things that are very similar to their other specs, but they also have unique stuff. So do rogues.
    Last edited by Tenhou; 2012-09-10 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Made my combat and subtlety explanations a bit less of a wall of text

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    If a vanilla rogue came back to game the biggest hit for them would be shadowstep and removal of positional requirements for mutilate. They would have no problem or questions whatsoever about how to produce CPs and what to do with them. The only difference between 3 specs is 1 button.

    Going from frost to UH DK is like playing another class. Same goes to warriors and warlocks. The argument is that every class has evolved after 7 years of game in unique ways but rogue changes are minimal to nonexistent. There is much room for improvement but no action taken.
    Warriors still have charge, execute, Mortal Strike. Warlocks still use Shadowbolt, Corruption and strong internal dmg CDs. Your argument is invalid.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    If a vanilla rogue came back to game the biggest hit for them would be shadowstep and removal of positional requirements for mutilate. They would have no problem or questions whatsoever about how to produce CPs and what to do with them. The only difference between 3 specs is 1 button.

    Going from frost to UH DK is like playing another class. Same goes to warriors and warlocks. The argument is that every class has evolved after 7 years of game in unique ways but rogue changes are minimal to nonexistent. There is much room for improvement but no action taken.

    Even if by some fallacy people still cant see that after 7 years they are still using rupture snd and evis and they still produce CPs with SS, mut and BS, there is no way to deny that every spec is using same abilities with different names and even the latter isnt even always true.

    We have made a big deal out of nowhere because some people disagree about the obvious and true fact that every spec uses same finishers and they are by one button different on how to create CPs.

    You do expect that every spec will have energy, CP builders and finishers but this doesnt mean that the only difference should be RS button changed to dispatch or backstab and SS button changed to hemmo or mutilate when you change specs.

    Dispatch, RS and shadow dance is what separates 2005 and 2012 rogues.
    Just because rogues have had a conservative playstyle since vanilla dose not mean the three specs are the same. That are two totally diffrent things. The reason rogues have evolved so little is because Blizzard are satisfied with the feeling of playing a rogue.
    If you want to min max your dps than all the 3 specs are quite much diffrent.
    The general idea is to use combo generators to be able to do finnishers. But the key diffrence is to decide, when, what and how. Depending on your spec and situation.

    If we are going with the generalised approach OP have. Well than any dpscaster is about keep dots up cast procspell if proc, use Priolist.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Warriors still have charge, execute, Mortal Strike. Warlocks still use Shadowbolt, Corruption and strong internal dmg CDs. Your argument is invalid.
    Warriors got evolved from cleave istead of HS due threat reasons and 2 hand fury specs to TG, colossus smash, rage mechanics change, rampage in tbc, bloodsurge, raging blow, removal of rend and it I can keep going.

    Warlocks got shards, demonic fury and embers. Your shadowbolt example is unlucky, since not all specs actually use it today. Going from affli to demo or destro is like going from SP to a mage or ele shaman.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-10 at 01:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by studkaw View Post
    Just because rogues have had a conservative playstyle since vanilla dose not mean the three specs are the same. That are two totally diffrent things. The reason rogues have evolved so little is because Blizzard are satisfied with the feeling of playing a rogue.
    If you want to min max your dps than all the 3 specs are quite much diffrent.
    The general idea is to use combo generators to be able to do finnishers. But the key diffrence is to decide, when, what and how. Depending on your spec and situation.

    If we are going with the generalised approach OP have. Well than any dpscaster is about keep dots up cast procspell if proc, use Priolist.
    Noone said that all specs are the same, I merely said that 1. all specs are honogenized and 2. all specs look like 2005 rogue plus one more button per spec.
    The fact that blizz is satisfied is irrelevant to a topic of suggestions and concerns. They were also happy with vengeance yet they changed it, they were also satisfied with hunters having mana yet they changed it.

    If I want to min/max I will use a dagger offhand as combat even if it gives me only one more poison proc that deals 0.0001 damage in 10 mins fight.

    The general idea is to use CP builders to execute finishers. The key LACK of difference is that these finishers are 7 years old and are the same for all specs.
    You dont decide when, what and how at all. You use the respective CP builders from 2005 plus that extra button.

    Any dpscaster is about keeping dots, procs and priolist. In fact any class is about that. If you go from fire to arcane you need to keep living bomb rolling so you get mana returns and after 5 blasts you use pyro as a finisher just like you do with fire but every now and then you have to cast mage and dice to keep haste up.

    On a more serious note, what does a demo lock going destro have to do with a combat going sub? Completely different playstyle

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