Comatose patients are conscious - Ask to die or stay alive?

[Powerogue]

I'd probably try and wait it out at first, but if at some point It'll become unbearable, then I'd ask to be euthanized (if it's possible somehow (the asking, not the euthanasia)).

sounds about right. after 12 years or so I don't think I could take it.

though knowing he's conscious, wheel the poor guy in a TV. Plus if they can analyze his brain like that, give a few responses from him to his family that hasn't talked to him in 12 years.

[Sunseeker]

So we've just made a pretty massive leap in understanding what a coma actually is. Scientists and medical doctors actually don't have a real definition of death.

We come to new conclusions like this on a regular basis now even if its not directly related to what the article is about. For all we know we might have brain wave readers that let people in comas, paralyzed etc etc communicate through their brains in 15-20 years.

Now being a vegetable staring at a wall for that long with no guarantee of released isn't exactly all that pleasing of an idea.

Logically speaking, if a computer could read the signals send in your brain as well as your brain could(if it was ya know, properly communicating to your body), then reasonably we could download all the data from your brain, you'd just have to think about it. Or ya know, set up your brain to remotely control a humanoid body. Now of course, it may still be unrealistic to build you a fully-functional human body. But hey, if we could get at least roughly as close to a humanoid form as Johnny 5 we'd be doing pretty darn good.

[semaphore]

Firstly there is a difference between locked in syndrome and being in a coma. Secondly a computer can answer questions so does that have a substantial level of consciousness?

1. Good job on missing the point. A "coma" patient who is actually conscious, is not in a "coma". It's called locked in syndrome.
2. A computer can't answer questions. It executes a set of instructions and prints output.

[Sir NackDoe]

well brain activity, means consciousness, means you'd dream and seeing as I don't much believe in afterlife\ heaven and don't wanna die, keep me alive baby!

[derpkitteh]

there is no way i would want to live like that. i may be terrified of death.... but i just could not handle being trapped in my own body.

[Adam Jensen]

I read a book called Johnny Got His Gun. Its about a WWI soldier who loses all his limbs, his eyes, nose, ears and mouth. So while its not exactly the same thing as a coma, its the same end result, there's nothing but you trapped inside your mind.

I'd rather die.

[IRunSoFarAway]

I'd give it a week, then call it a life.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

1. Good job on missing the point. A "coma" patient who is actually conscious, is not in a "coma". It's called locked in syndrome.
2. A computer can't answer questions. It executes a set of instructions and prints output.

I think the point of #2 is that we may be able to respond to stimuli without being conscious of our response. Something similar to this is exhibited in a type of blind people who are only blind because their occipital lobe is damaged. Since their eyes are perfectly healthy and data is sent not just to the occipital lobe but to other places of the brain independently, people who are blind in this manner exhibit the ability to avoid obstacles and to react to facial expressions without knowing why.

I read a book called Johnny Got His Gun. Its about a WWI soldier who loses all his limbs, his eyes, nose, ears and mouth. So while its not exactly the same thing as a coma, its the same end result, there's nothing but you trapped inside your mind.

I'd rather die.

He'd still be able to feel things touching him.

[Deleted]

I read a book called Johnny Got His Gun. Its about a WWI soldier who loses all his limbs, his eyes, nose, ears and mouth. So while its not exactly the same thing as a coma, its the same end result, there's nothing but you trapped inside your mind.

I'd rather die.

Fun fact - the song "One" by Metallica is about the character in that story, and the video features a lot of clips from the movie adaptation that was made in the 50's.

[semaphore]

I think the point of #2 is that we may be able to respond to stimuli without being conscious of our response.

Not really, he was saying that being able to answer questions with brain activity doesn't count as being conscious because "computers". But the fact is that brain activity is directly correlated with consciousness. A blind person as you described, is still conscious when they actively avoid obstacles. They're not walking around passed out, are they?

[Deleted]

Not really, he was saying that being able to answer questions with brain activity doesn't count as being conscious because "computers". But the fact is that brain activity is directly correlated with consciousness. A blind person as you described, is still conscious when they actively avoid obstacles. They're not walking around passed out, are they?

When does brain activity ever mean consciousness? The brain remain active when unconscious, activity even persist through death although it's only for a few minutes. So if brain activity automatically means consciousness, then we are conscious even when we're unconscious, totally makes sense, eh?

While this is a great find and all, enough credit isn't given to the unconscious mind and I think it's far to early to say for certain that comatose patients are truly conscious. As an example of the unconscious mind: I occasionally go on walkabouts in my apartment while sleeping. I even talk to myself and with friends/family if they are visiting. I can even prepare a cup of coffee and get dressed while sleeping. This doesn't mean I'm aware of what I'm doing.

But indeed the computer example is preposterous.

[Daedius]

I'm curious, if this were the case why didn't previous people in a coma not say they were conscious the whole time... ?

There have been countless people in and out of a coma, and it took a 'scientific study' to suddenly come out and say they were conscious the whole time?

Something seems dodgy if you ask me...

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

Not really, he was saying that being able to answer questions with brain activity doesn't count as being conscious because "computers". But the fact is that brain activity is directly correlated with consciousness. A blind person as you described, is still conscious when they actively avoid obstacles. They're not walking around passed out, are they?

His comparison wasn't good, but I think I got the point of it and you didn't. As for my comparison, the point is that a person can still respond to stimulus that they aren't aware of. The blind people would have emotional responses when presented with things such as a sad face, but had no idea why they were having these responses. Perhaps a similar occurrence with coma-like states is involved here wherein part of the brain is responding to the stimulus, but the person isn't conscious of it.

Question, would you define consciousness as an on or off state or would do you consider it to have levels?

[Deleted]

I'm curious, if this were the case why didn't previous people in a coma not say they were conscious the whole time... ?

There have been countless people in and out of a coma, and it took a 'scientific study' to suddenly come out and say they were conscious the whole time?

Something seems dodgy if you ask me...

Very curious indeed. However, there have been a few reported cases in the past. But not enough to support the claim that 43% of all coma patients are conscious and aware.

[semaphore]

When does brain activity ever mean consciousness?

When you don't take posts out of the context. I was talking about the level of consciousness behind producing a brain activity pattern signalling "no" and "yes" in response to questions. Background noise in the form of a generic holding pattern isn't that.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 08:48 AM ----------

Perhaps a similar occurrence with coma-like states is involved here wherein part of the brain is responding to the stimulus, but the person isn't conscious of it.

The brain would produce generic activity in response to external stimuli. There's a fair bit of difference between such automatic processes, and patterns that would constitute an answer of yes or no. I don't see how a brain that gives an answer to a question isn't conscious.

Question, would you define consciousness as an on or off state or would do you consider it to have levels?

Levels.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 08:51 AM ----------

I'm curious, if this were the case why didn't previous people in a coma not say they were conscious the whole time... ?

Because nobody's saying this is the case for everyone in a "coma", and because some people actually say exactly just that?

Rom Houben spent 23 years misdiagnosed as being in a coma until it was discovered that his consciousness was intact.

[endersblade]

Hmm...I guess it depends on the time. Twelve years? Yeah, fucking put me down lol.

However...and without getting all existential and shit, I think it would be an...interesting experience. No longer worried about day-to-day life, or even your body for that matter, you (in your brain) are left to your own devices, allowed to basically test your mental limits and capabilities without any hindrance. Not that I'd willingly partake in that experience lol.

[Deleted]

When you don't take posts out of the context. I was talking about the level of consciousness behind producing a brain activity pattern signalling "no" and "yes" in response to questions. Background noise in the form of a generic holding pattern isn't that.

But the fact is that brain activity is directly correlated with consciousness

It was perfectly in context with your post. The brains ability to remain consistent and active even while unconscious doesn't prove or validate any form of lucidity. I'm more than prepared to jump onto the scientific bandwagon and take whatever they say as hard facts.
But the thing is, it's not certain yet.

As always when dealing with these sort of things you need to confirm your findings and that can only be done by the actual patient, who unfortunately is comatose. So until(if) this patient wakes up and can prove his lucidity while he was in his former state, this will remain uncertain.


Also: Consciousness=//= Lucidness

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I would probably wait it out for a couple of years. After that I would want the plug pulled.

[semaphore]

It was perfectly in context with your post.

No it isn't. You took consciousness out of context because you ignored/didn't read the original post that started the conversation.

Being able to answer questions demonstrate a substantial level of consciousness,

That's the level of consciousness I'm talking about.

The brains ability to remain consistent even while unconscious

What does that have to do with anything? The experiment didn't find the brain being "consistent" and that is not the evidence they used. They told the patient to imagine playing tennis to reply "yes" and to imagine walking on the streets as "no". That the patient did exactly that in response to questions very clearly does validate that he is still conscious.

So what the hell are you even talking about?

As always when dealing with these sort of things you need to confirm your findings and that can only be done by the actual patient, who unfortunately is comatose. So until(if) this patient wakes up and can prove his lucidity while he was in his former state, this will remain uncertain.

Or we can use critical thinking and realise it isn't uncertain at all.

[Deleted]

No it isn't. You took consciousness out of context because you ignored/didn't read the original post that started the conversation.


That's the level of consciousness I'm talking about.


What does that have to do with anything? The experiment didn't find the brain being "consistent".

Of course it did. Do you really think they would publish these findings if the brain wasn't being consistent?
*Well, the "yes" neurons fired off 52% of the time, he's probably conscious* xD

And btw, I read the OP and the two articles linked to it and another article on the same matter.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...onscious-state

I still don't buy it, especially not in the light this thread puts it. When there is proof of lucidity in that mist of consciousness, then I'll cheer for medical history.