apart from spouting your off kilter mini mein kampf you dont actually make a relevant point to the debate though. no ones arguing western civilisation is a good thing. people have opportunity and generally a better quality of life than in a lot of places in the world. thats often because the west or its corporations has made their lives a living hell though.Originally Posted by Tuvok
why does that make invading iraq and killing 1.5 million people a good thing? did that make our western life better? safer? did it reduce terrorism and make the world more stable? ofc it didnt. was it neccessary? I cant see what it achieved bar a massive rise in the price of oil. great for the saudis maybe, not so great for us. do we really want to repeat that in Iran? in what way is Iran a threat to us that you feel justified in killing a similar number of people there too? in an earlier post you said you didnt trust them. so what. we dont need to trust them. post invasion what happens? will our lives be better? I dont think so.
you can take whatever view you want on other cultures and religions. I dont mind. i just dont see how cowboying in and killing a million people is a good thing. what exactly are you seeking to defend or accomplish? in what way do you think it will advance western culture. Libya cost the UK 6Billion or so. for what? what did the UK get from that. were closing schools and libraries as weve no money but we blow the crap out of Libya. why?
as for me, id rather we invested in infrastructure and education. re built our manufacturing base and positioned ourselves for the real fight. the economic one against india and china. as we piss our money away on expensive boys toys theyre laughing all the way to the bank. by disagreeing with you, you seem to see me as some kind of lefty liberal. you couldnt be further from the truth. all im saying is use our money for our benefit rather than to the detriment of Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Afghanistan or wherever else were busy blowing up.
yeah, i'll believe they have our drone when i believe north korea has unicorns.
1. Ummm, these are not really wars? Additionally, I'd like some sources for the bold parts and since you're claiming that it is a regular thing then you would have to probably provide me with more than one accident.
2. Hezbollah have never claimed attacks on non-military targets and I believe that any military target (both ways) is a fair game. So what?
3. Source?
4. Dictatorships tend to kill "opposing parties" in large numbers see Saudi Arabia, and the rest of gulf countries. I don't really see why your singling Iran out.
Furthermore, similar acts to some (if not all) of these were done by what we call western and civilised nations.
I am speaking specifically about the republic of Iran the current government not some country thousands of years ago.
Why the fuck do you continuously feel the need to label me as a nazi? Jesus Skurn, can you just put your personal distate for my current opinions aside? I have openly admitted the west is not perfect, and of course we have made mistakes and I accept Iran may be one of them, that is not the point I am making and I never said the invasion of Iran in particular was a good decision.Quote Originally Posted by Tuvok
weird random white supremacist psychobabble
Nobody is actually arguing with me, since I started posting nobody has said anything in response to me except insulting comments and comparisons to Hitler, it's absolutely ridiculous, yet you're still claiming moral highground. Stop with the sensationalist bullshit already.
What I am saying is that at this moment in humanity's history, the west is the most enlightened civilisation as a whole. We are not offended by the thought of homosexuals marrying (and for good reason), we use logic and reason and require evidence before we convict someone of a crime, we do not oppress our women, and our morals are based on logical reasoning. I would welcome any legitimate contradiction to that claim, but I doubt there exists any. For these reasons, western values are the single most advanced system of values that exist today and provide future humans with the best chance of achieving a peaceful, sensible existence if they are followed and protected. Due to what is it at stake (the future of humanity) I believe we have to see beyond the present day and our own individual lives and accept that fact, and be prepared to take the necessary steps to ensure the west's protection.
Of course fuck ups are made along the way, and I have specified on numerous occasions I do not harbour a romantic love for the west, I simply see it is our best chance and I would hate to see it endangered by people who cannot realise that and are too caught up in idealism to wake up to reality and the real threats to protect it. Yes I was a tad dramatic in how I went about saying it and somewhat self-indulgent, but for god's sake it really does not warrant these ridiculous accusations that have been thrown at me. If you were to consider my point of view calmly I think you would come to appreciate its merits, and if you are willnig to provide thought out counter arguments that do not contain comparisons of me to Hitler in it I would be very happy to read and carefully consider what you have to say.
Last edited by Tuvok; 2012-12-08 at 12:52 AM.
"The truth, my goal."
There you go again tuvok. How does any of what you've said justify your earlier statement of western supremacy and our need to kill Iranians. No ones arguing with you because you dont really make a serious argument for anything.
Why based on what you've said do you feel we were justified in killing 1.5 million Iraqis and based on that why do you think we should do the same in Iran.
It costs more to go blow things up than it would to try and rebuild the uk. Roads, rail, education. Or we could go kill a million Iranians who aren't any threat to us whatsoever.
Petagon got fat budget. Americans harvest hatred.
Iraqis cannot forget what Americans have done here’
By Global Research News
Global Research, December 01, 2012
I sat in on a lecture, given in English, to maybe fifty or more young men and women at a college in Ramadi.
Then a young man in the front row only a couple of feet from me said in a quiet voice “We have nothing to say. The last years have been only sad ones.” Again there was silence.
Sami, my host from Najaf and part of the Muslim Peacemaker Team, stood and shared. He told the story of how, after the U.S. bombing assaults on Fallujah, he and others came from the Shia cities of Najaf and Karbala, to carry out a symbolic act of cleaning up rubble and trash in the streets of Fallujah. This gesture, he said, melted hearts and healed some of the brokenness between Sunni and Shia. He
spoke of the delegation of peacemakers from the United States who were just in Najaf for twelve days, of the work to build bridges and seek reconciliation.
An impassioned young woman from the middle of the lecture hall spoke up. It was obviously not easy for her. “It is not,” she said, “about lack of water and electricity [something I had mentioned]. You have destroyed everything. You have destroyed our country. You have destroyed what is inside of us! You have destroyed our ancient civilization. You have taken our smiles from us. You have
taken our dreams!”
Someone asked, “Why did you this? What did we do to you that you would do this to us?”
“Iraqis cannot forget what Americans have done here,” said another. “They destroyed the childhood. You don’t destroy everything and then say ‘We’re sorry.’ “You don’t commit crimes and then say ‘Sorry.’”
“To bomb us and then send teams to do investigations on the effects of the bombs…No, it will not be forgotten. It is not written on our hearts, it is carved in our hearts.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/iraqis-...have-done-here
Soulcrusher, throughout this whole discussion I had completely forgotten the thread was originally about Iran. Nothing I have said has been based on anything to do with Iran, I suppose I should've made that clearer. But please desist with this misrepresentation of my position. I am not a white supremecist, as that mindset is irrational. I also have no interest in killing Iranians.
I shouldn't humour your question with an answer since you are still being quite insulting but I will bite the bullet. To tell you the truth, I don't know if invading Iraq was right. I cannot say one way or ther other what is right in that situation because I do not have the necessary knowledge to make a proper judgement. In the case of Iran, their lack of cooperation with UN inspectors causes a lot of doubt as to their intentions with nuclear technology, and the risks involved are such that billions of people are the stakes. My argument with regard to Iran is that because the power of nuclear weaponry is so dangerous, that the mere fact that it would be possible for irresponsible groups to get their hands on them is cause enough above all else to make sure it doesn't happen. The fact that the USA or the UK or whoever already has nuclear weaponry does not justify the creation of more in countries where the use of such weapons is far more likely due to its instability. I believe it is a risk we simply cannot take. That is my primary line of reasoning and Iran is the focus of my argument, not Iraq.
"The truth, my goal."
If you are that clueless I feel sorry for you. Either that or you are a paid blogger for a terrorist cell. Because I find it hard for someone to not be aware of the last 30 years of Iranian history.
But if you are just clueless go find an Iranian and ask them.
here is a good group they will list out the long list of murder women.
http://www.iranpoliticalprisoners.org/index.html
Now as far as Saudi Arabia you are just kicking back my word at me, I'm the one who accuses the Saudi's of stirring up most of this crap, and using the US Military as it's private body guard.
As for what the CIA did that was GHW Bush who set it up as Director of the CIA. Who's his best friend? the Saudi's. I wonder why the Saudi's wanted the Shah gone? Do not think for a moment that anything happens in the Middle East that is not approved by the Saudi's, Israel's very existence has helped the Saudi's get away with so much it's ridiculous. So when you ask your self why does America unconditionally back Israel ask your self why would the Saudi's want America to Back Israel.
You want to spew forth innocent Iran, which is in the top 4 worst totalitarian nations on earth.
I was pissed off that Libya got sacked. Sure in the 80's they sponsored Terrorism and it bit them in the ass hard core, Gaddafi was actually good for his people, but he controlled oil which wasn't owned by the Saudi's. Syria is falling hard and fast, the US is doing almost nothing While Israel is Screaming at the world to do something. Wonder why America isn't doing anything?
You have a very narrow world view when you think all your troubles are made in America.
Is it a kind of censorship to move my article "Iraqis cannot forget what Americans have done here’ to this thread? There is no relationship between the two.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...S-drone/page18
I'm not going to dig through 18 pages of ideological mud slinging to see if this was posted already, but a quick google search finds articles that seem to indicate the Iranians merely purchased a commercially available ScanEagle. The aircraft pictured in the video release has no American markings, and it's not exactly the kind of UAV that the US would use for a spy mission given its relative lack of sophistication. This is more likely a story intended for domestic consumption rather than to rile up the Americans; in fact, most of the Iranian saber rattling initiated by Ahmadinejad is usually intended to distract Iranian citizens from his failed economic policies that have absolutely devastated the Iranian middle class.
http://strategypage.com/qnd/iran/articles/20121206.aspx (obvious pro-US bias, but very well informed and constructed argument)
Narfwak - Elemental Shaman
<FH>
Black Dragonflight-US
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rfwak/advanced
Nice I have had several Persian lovers, My first was a Iranian. I live in a highly Persian community here in LA, we have everyone here Persians, my car dealer is Palestinian, My favorite laffas are made by an Israel restaurant. You seem to forget Los Angeles has the exact same weather patterns as Lebanon/Israel/Palestine. So when people from over there move to the US, either they get stuck in New York or Move to Los Angeles. There are millions of Muslims in Los Angeles.
---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 06:11 PM ----------
You didn't need to put that in this thread, and it is more reason to hate the Bushes and the Saudi's, if they think it was the will of America they are mistaken. The American will was not to be there.
There are heavy economic sanctions and restrictions enforced on Iran by the "global community", based only on hearsay.
Israel wants Iran to fail wether they are developing nuclear armaments or not. So the USA follow them as they do. I know it punishes the iranian's innocent population but that's the way the "good guys" fight their wars nowadays.
Having recognised this you would agree that you have ZERO rights to talk about iran's economic policies.
Also.
ALL you know about Ahmadinejad is propaganda. Wrongly translated interviews, things taken out of context... It's just the way it is.
They're the bad guys so there you go.
You know what, the place might be what it is, but I personally like how he drives a normal car, dresses in normal clothes, grows his own stuff in his back garden, walk with people, you know...
But you probably haven't heard it, or if you did, somehow twisted.
I think OUR corrupted politicians should learn from this, a LOT.
The reason why i tell you this is because I find ridicolous people commenting on Iran or Ahmadinejad based on what they hear on national news, television, Internet, etc.
There's a shitload of propaganda on BOTH sides so just take all you hear with a pinch of salt.
---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 07:57 AM ----------
Man I was reading that link. Is that how you get your informations about it? Do you not realise THAT to be plain propaganda?
Man I'm amazed.
It's not "very well informed and constructive" AT ALL.
A bunch of historical crap cherry picked to suit the needs, lies turned truth about Islam and its divisions... Wow....
No. Should I?
---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 08:56 AM ----------
Oh sorry I forgot how, for you, not blindly supporting and swallowing every piece of crap, AUTOMATICALLY makes you an active member of some Iranian terrorist organisation.
Black and white black and white black and white YUHU!!
Life is so simple like that aint it?
Last edited by mmocea043e1e13; 2012-12-08 at 08:59 AM.
So instead of giving me actual sources for your "bullet points", you call me clueless. Okay... Oh and I almost forgot, then you processed to give me even more bullshit without any kind of sources to back it up.
P.S. Never argued that political prisoners aren't being executed.
---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 10:08 AM ----------
He posted it in another thread and for some reason the mods decided to merge it with this one and the invasion of Iraq (plain and simple) was done for the sole reason of saying "we are doing something about 9/11, see we invaded a terrorist country".