Crying about PVP realms ''Blue'' response

[Nerraw]

At 3am MMOs are very quiet, even in WoW. Not everyone plays prime time, and no CRZ is going to help then, anyway.

Do you wish to answer the question posed by myself at the top of the page directed at you?

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Do you wish to answer the question posed by myself at the top of the page directed at you?

Do you wish to answer my statement about MMOs can be very quiet? Because they can be.

I already gave an example of how Blizzard ignored their own ToS in regards to PvP. Scroll back, not skip reading.

[Nerraw]

A contract that openly states anything in it is changable is exactly the same as if it was a blank page.



The ToU is a blank page, all that matters is what actually happened.

Sorry you don't like it, but suck it up. Facts > blank page.

Fact: The game had plenty of people in old world zones in Vanilla.

Fact: The game changed at the start of or during TBC in regards to the old world. Less people spent time there.

Fact: Blizzard have stated they did not like this direction.

Fact: CRZ was introduced to combat population problems in old world zones. And as a precursor for similar technology (cross-realm heirlooms have been mentioned as one thing that would be easier to implement now).

Fact: Blizzard have stated that while CRZ still have kinks to work out, it is largely working as intended.


Fact: Blizzard has done nothing to violate their own ToS.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 10:12 PM ----------

Do you wish to answer my statement about MMOs can be very quiet? Because they can be.

I already gave an example of how Blizzard ignored their own ToS in regards to PvP. Scroll back, not skip reading.

Did he say something about 3am? No, he said quiet server.

And only thing I see is you talking about some twink BG exploit which I have absolutely no knowledge about. You are going to have to be much more specific in your claims. If it is such a serious breach, I'm sure someone would have brought it up with the people watching over consumer rights. Like someone did with Blizzard's Korean office after the D3 release. AFAIK, their offices were raided over it. Because the servers had problem during the week of release. Is this more serious than that?

[Deadite]

CRZ is the latest addition and the usage of similar technology will likely become a household design choice in WoW and other MMORPGs in the future. Realms are a dying concept in mainstream gaming.

CRZ is a way to avoid the 'dead realm' problem. Other games admit the problem and merge realms even with the negative repercussions. I don't really see other games in the future going to such pointless measures. Even Blizzard admit there is problem with it. Dc:Universe was the first game to use the CRZ stuff and they had more functionality than Blizzard have. You could cross realm between PvP and PvE for example and look how that went. Its a band aid fix at best. It is also not really the point of this thread.

I don't have a problem with being ganked. All it costs you in the end is some time. I guess my main problem is that CRZ has turned World PvP into nothing more than a random BG now. A bunch of guys on both sides who you will never likely see again pointlessly killing each other. I know alot of people are happy with that but i personally prefer some context to my World PvP and know who i am killing and more importantly who is killing me. I can name people from back in the old Southshore/Tarren Mill fights in Vanilla and i still think back fondly on those days. Those rivalries will never happen with CRZ and i forget the name of the guy i just killed or who killed me 6 seconds after it happens. Good old nostalgia i guess.

[Endus]

A contract that openly states anything in it is changable is exactly the same as if it was a blank page.

This is false, since it defines who can make changes.

Since that's false, your subsequent claim;

The ToU is a blank page, all that matters is what actually happened.

Is also false, not only because the TOU is not a blank page, but because "what actually happened" isn't relevant even if it were.



Injin "logic";
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html
This webpage is blank, and if you see words there you're wrong because shut up.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/status#type=pvp
None of these servers actually exist, because PvP servers no longer exist, so the page that says they're up is a lie, even though you can still log in just fine on those servers.

You keep stating things that are blatantly, outrageously untrue, and then mocking people for disagreeing with you. You're effectively arguing that ice is hot and water is dry.

[Deleted]

Fact: The game had plenty of people in old world zones in Vanilla.

Fact: They haven't for the 6 years since.

Fact: The game changed at the start of or during TBC in regards to the old world. Less people spent time there.

Right.
[quote]
Fact: Blizzard have stated they did not like this direction.[quote]

Right.

Fact: CRZ was introduced to combat population problems in old world zones. And as a precursor for similar technology (cross-realm heirlooms have been mentioned as one thing that would be easier to implement now).

Fact: Blizzard have stated that while CRZ still have kinks to work out, it is largely working as intended.


Fact: Blizzard has done nothing to violate their own ToS.

They can't violate the ToS, it says they can change anything. it's irrelevent.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 09:19 PM ----------

This is false, since it defines who can make changes.

Since that's false, your subsequent claim;

Who is irrelevent if they can change anything. Blank page.

Is also false, not only because the TOU is not a blank page, but because "what actually happened" isn't relevant even if it were.



Injin "logic";
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html
This webpage is blank, and if you see words there you're wrong because shut up.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/status#type=pvp
None of these servers actually exist, because PvP servers no longer exist, so the page that says they're up is a lie, even though you can still log in just fine on those servers.

You keep stating things that are blatantly, outrageously untrue, and then mocking people for disagreeing with you. You're effectively arguing that ice is hot and water is dry.

But "pvp server" meant a discrete server that only member of could use for 8 years, right?

I didn't make that up, did I?

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Fact: The game had plenty of people in old world zones in Vanilla.

When you could only play one faction per account. If you were Alliance you had to make a separate account to play Horde, paying 2x the price. So faction pride actually meant something -- nowhere else to turn, unless forking over more money.

Fact: The game changed at the start of or during TBC in regards to the old world. Less people spent time there.

Chasing carrots. But the old world and it's world PvP always existed.

Fact: Blizzard have stated they did not like this direction.

Rob Pardo also stated about PvP and arenas:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/bl...ere-a-mistake/

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction.

Fact: CRZ was introduced to combat population problems in old world zones. And as a precursor for similar technology (cross-realm heirlooms have been mentioned as one thing that would be easier to implement now).

Which is a design and player problem. It's not like the stuff was taken out of the game. People are chasing carrots, and there's little carrots to get back into the world, at the expense of making new expansions (where Blizzard makes it money selling boxes). If the game is designed for end-game viability everything that's not end-game is neglected. The only players out and about in the old world at any regularity are those leveling toons -- which ganking hurts the game design of leveling alts (where Blizzard expects to make money due to the time to level them...50 per client).

Fact: Blizzard have stated that while CRZ still have kinks to work out, it is largely working as intended.

If this is working as intended I hope they don't expect it will keep players leveling. Killing their own prized alts is counterproductive even for PvP realms, as it can be tiring wasting time while 90s camp NPCs.

Fact: Blizzard has done nothing to violate their own ToS.

Tell that to BG twinks exploiting game mechanics and Blizzard giving them a green light. But by the same token, guilds that exploit game mechanics like Paragon got a tiny slap for doing so (compared to much harsher bans in WotLK).

[Endus]

But "pvp server" meant a discrete server that only member of could use for 8 years, right?

I didn't make that up, did I?

No, it never meant that. Yes, you did make it up.

Edit: I've colored the bits you've added in based on no evidence you've bothered to cite. The actual definition is defined by the PvP realm policy, which I've already cited here plenty of times.

If you want to prove otherwise, find a blue forum post or other official Blizzard post that so defines a PvP server. I've asked you for such a source multiple times, and until you provide one, it's stuff you're imagining, and has as much relevance as my nightmare last night about being devoured by pitbull-sized acidfrogs.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 04:28 PM ----------

If this is working as intended I hope they don't expect it will keep players leveling. Killing their own prized alts is counterproductive even for PvP realms, as it can be tiring wasting time while 90s camp NPCs.

I've leveled multiple alts under CRZ, and once I get some free time, I'm looking forward to wrapping up my Warlock and then starting the next, which will probably be a Priest.

Some of us like PvP realms BECAUSE of this threat. I've been bored to tears leveling in WotLK/Cata, and I much prefer the post-CRZ PvP realm environment for leveling my alts in.

Do not pretend your own predilections reflect those of the rest of the community. I'm not; I'm well aware some people might not like ganking, but there's PvE servers for those folks. Some of us like that threat and pressure, and that's why we play on PvP servers.

Tell that to BG twinks exploiting game mechanics and Blizzard giving them a green light. But by the same token, guilds that exploit game mechanics like Paragon got a tiny slap for doing so (compared to much harsher bans in WotLK).

Are you talking about twinking in general, or some specific exploit?

Twinking was never an exploit, it was an optimization. No cheating was required. "Exploiting game mechanics" involved stuff like finding something that was an obvious bug (like engineering bombs breaking the LK fight, during WotLK) and deliberately abusing that glitch to succeed where you would otherwise fail. Twinking may not have been foreseen, but it didn't involve exploiting any mechanics, just getting the best available BoEs for that level and enchanting them with the best available enchants. It gave you a huge advantage, since most of those enchants and items were out of reach of other players at that level, but it didn't involve any exploitation whatsoever.

[Deleted]

No, it never meant that. Yes, you did make it up.

You are saying that you could encounter people from other servers on your own server prior to CRZ?

If you want to prove otherwise, find a blue forum post or other official Blizzard post that so defines a PvP server. I've asked you for such a source multiple times, and until you provide one, it's stuff you're imagining, and has as much relevance as my nightmare last night about being devoured by pitbull-sized acidfrogs.

Blizzards actions define what a pvp server meant. No need for language. (And you can't point to the ToS because it's a blank page.)

Facts > words

Get over it.

[Nerraw]

CRZ is a way to avoid the 'dead realm' problem.

At first. Do you honestly believe that this technology won't be expanded upon in the future?

Other games admit the problem and merge realms even with the negative repercussions.

Name one other subscription-based MMO with more than 10 million active subscribers.

I don't really see other games in the future going to such pointless measures.

You call the development of technology that transfers you and your character between physical servers with no loading screens for pointless? The technology behind CRZ is probably the biggest jump in advancement in gaming-related server features this year.

Even Blizzard admit there is problem with it.

Of course. When was the last time you saw Version 1.0 of some brand new technology to be absolutely flawless? Why the hell is it that people expect Blizzard to 100% perfect? They never were, and they never will be.

Dc:Universe was the first game to use the CRZ stuff and they had more functionality than Blizzard have.

They didn't have to develop a system to support 10 million people.

You could cross realm between PvP and PvE for example and look how that went. Its a band aid fix at best.

Talking about WoW or DCUO here? In WoW, you won't get automatically grouped across realmtypes anymore, but you can still move from one to the other when group with Real ID friends in order to play together.

If DCUO, I have no clue what you're talking about.

It is also not really the point of this thread.

Nope, but the point of your post clearly was to bash on some technology because you have personal reasons to dislike it.

I don't have a problem with being ganked. All it costs you in the end is some time. I guess my main problem is that CRZ has turned World PvP into nothing more than a random BG now. A bunch of guys on both sides who you will never likely see again pointlessly killing each other. I know alot of people are happy with that but i personally prefer some context to my World PvP and know who i am killing and more importantly who is killing me. I can name people from back in the old Southshore/Tarren Mill fights in Vanilla and i still think back fondly on those days. Those rivalries will never happen with CRZ and i forget the name of the guy i just killed or who killed me 6 seconds after it happens. Good old nostalgia i guess.

There will always be nostalgia moments. And the Vanilla-era old world will never return. There just is not enough of an incentive to go there. So they had to do something else to bring life into otherwise dead zones. And voila, CRZ.

[Endus]

You are saying that you could encounter people from other servers on your own server prior to CRZ?

No, I'm saying that whether you could or not was never part of the definition of "server". Stop being deliberately disingenuous.

Blizzards actions define what a pvp server meant.

No, the PvP Realm Policy defines that.

You can't claim that up is down and black is white. Seriously.

[Deleted]

No, I'm saying that whether you could or not was never part of the definition of "server". Stop being deliberately disingenuous.

How things are is their definition.

Always.

No, the PvP Realm Policy defines that.

You can't claim that up is down and black is white. Seriously.

I'm only claimign that how things were is how things were.

Facts > words

Always. Everywhere. For everyone.

[Nerraw]

They can't violate the ToS, it says they can change anything. it's irrelevent.

Good. Then where does the claim that Blizzard needs to offer free transfers off PVP servers come from? They haven't done anything wrong after all.

[Endus]

How things are is their definition.

Always.

Then CRZ has changed the definition of PvP realms, since that's now how they are.

I'm reasonably sure you've now painted yourself into a corner. Not that I agree with your premise, but you're no longer even being internally consistent.

[Deleted]

Then CRZ has changed the definition of PvP realms, since that's now how they are.

Right, and?

I'm reasonably sure you've now painted yourself into a corner.

Why on earth would you think that?

[Brytryne]

Would you agree that I as a paying customer should get my sentry totem back since it doesn't specifically say in the ToS that they were gonna remove it?

It was always there, but one day it was gone :<

[Keoren]

CRZ is a way to avoid the 'dead realm' problem. Other games admit the problem and merge realms even with the negative repercussions. I don't really see other games in the future going to such pointless measures. Even Blizzard admit there is problem with it. Dc:Universe was the first game to use the CRZ stuff and they had more functionality than Blizzard have. You could cross realm between PvP and PvE for example and look how that went. Its a band aid fix at best. It is also not really the point of this thread.

There have been two big models. First one binds each character to a single realm similarly to how WoW still functions. Second one has multiple realms and no character is bound to a single one of them.

I personally expect that major MMORPG titles with eventually shift towards using a single realm, or few realms with different rule sets, with multiple phases dividing the people. CRZ technology is Blizzard's current equivalent of this that was designed to battle against the problems already mentioned in this thread. I expect it to be here to stay and even expand.

If this is working as intended I hope they don't expect it will keep players leveling. Killing their own prized alts is counterproductive even for PvP realms, as it can be tiring wasting time while 90s camp NPCs.

You obviously do not enjoy the PvP realm playstyle and made it clear that you do not take part in it by playing on a PvE realm. This is fine.

What I fail to understand is why you feel that your vision needs to be extended upon the PvP realms.

[Deleted]

Good. Then where does the claim that Blizzard needs to offer free transfers off PVP servers come from? They haven't done anything wrong after all.

Because in practice what they have provided for 8 years has gone.

[Deadite]

If DCUO, I have no clue what you're talking about.

If you don't have a clue about it then why go to the effort to quote all that and then leap to the defense of Blizzard when you have no clue about it? White Knighting is unnecessary. Blizzard took the tech from DC:UO and made it better in someways. You can still like WOW and know that other games done some of the things first *Gasp* I know i do.

but since you say

When was the last time you saw Version 1.0 of some brand new technology to be absolutely flawless?

Yeah i can see you will White Knight this to death so we will have to agree to dis agree before BenBro shows up and we derail this thread into closure.

[Blarglord69]

Hmm this thread needs more love : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr45DmZDjSc