Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Seranthor]

I have to agree with other poster. It sure seems like you cuss and use caps in almost violent way in order to get your point across. I have never cussed at anyone directly or personally insulted anyone. I feel your just being a tad dramatic. I'd love to coutinue this dissuion about you but this however is about the AR-15 weapon.

From the video I showed. It does a ton of damage. If someone was looking to shoot a bunch of people that is the only weapon that makes sense. Shooting an AR-15 into a crowd will do much much more damage then a handgun you have to fire each one shot at a time. No one knows the outcome of the ban on assault rifles. We do know they will try to push it through.

If people don't take notice after pattern of two murders then nothing will. For future notice I never intend to directly insult anyone over anything. I come to have a civil discussion. You never seen me lose my cool in these debates. I find it a little over zealous some posters are bickering with those who support an assault weapon ban.

So you say you want 'civil discussion', then here is a lesson, do not attempt to compare other forum posters of which you know nothing about with domestic terrorists, just don't do it, under any circumstance. You want to be treated in a civil way, then dont accuse folks of being drug abusers or criminals, just don't do it. You don't want folks to think you are attacking them, then keep your opinions about another poster's personal matters to yourself.

in short, when you tried to compare me to Tim McVeigh you crossed the line.
When you suggested I was hopped up on 'roids. you crossed the line.
When you suggested without any evidence, that I'd shoot innocent people, you again crossed the line.

And you wonder why I take offense to your comments?

[SirRobin]

To be honest, both sides of the debate have been less than optimal. I don't mean to imply false equivalence, it's just that it seems to be between "evil gun owners" or "people who want to steal my second amendment." There have been alternatives posted. Good ones, too.

Were mine among them?

Psst... This is where you say "Why yes SirRobin, jolly good show."

...

Anytime now.



---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 09:00 PM ----------

Well... Shit...

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...utomatic-rifle

How many more guys. How many more.

I also find myself very interested in where he got them from.

[Skronk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...illers:_Europe

nice list, but bearing in mind that it states at the top of this page as well as its americas counterpart they dont include school massacres, workplace killings, hate crimes and domestic mass murderers (ie familicide) these lists arent exactly ideal to be used for comparison, but lets break it down based solely on these lists since you brought it up, picking 5 from each of the lists for americas and europe :

Germany: 8
UK: 6
France: 11
Spain: 10
Italy: 13

Canada: 4
Mexico: 3
Columbia: 5
Brazil: 4
US: 90


So yea, compared to the USA, most countries in europe dont have that many shootings, even nations that alot of americans think are beneath them (ie mexico) have significantly less mass killings than they do. You can point at the differences in population if you like, but for example the US having 5 times the population of the UK does not come even close to accounting for the 15 times increase of rampage killings. As well as the fact a country like India with a population of a wopping 1.2 billion has had a mere 13 of these rampage killings over a period of 160 years serves to highlight even more that mass killings are a much bigger problem in america than compared to many nations around the world, only china seam to have a comparable problem.

another thing about these lists, is the european one covers a period of 472 years and the americas one only 149, and the americas list is still bigger, albeit the chances are these lists are woefully incomplete.

[SirRobin]

If Spengler got that bushmaster a legal gun owner? There is going to be hell to pay. Seriously guys, could you at least try policing yourselves or something? You are not leaving the rest of us much choice.

[Seranthor]

If Spengler got that bushmaster a legal gun owner? There is going to be hell to pay. Seriously guys, could you at least try policing yourselves or something? You are not leaving the rest of us much choice.

Mine is locked in the safe, how much more 'policing' do you want Sir? As I understand this event occurred exactly one day after a newspaper printed a MAP with the names and addresses of all the registered gun owners in their area. And of course lets ignore that he was a convicted murderer who WASNT serving a life sentence for MURDER, Seriously, sir, the man beat his mother to death with a hammer, but the justice system thought 18 years was enough and turned him loose. One could conclude that the courts deemed this man no longer a threat to society and ultimately, they got it wrong. But, you go ahead and blame the gun Sir.

[SirRobin]

Mine is locked in the safe, how much more 'policing' do you want Sir? As I understand this event occurred exactly one day after a newspaper printed a MAP with the names and addresses of all the registered gun owners in their area. And of course lets ignore that he was a convicted murderer who WASNT serving a life sentence for MURDER, Seriously, sir, the man beat his mother to death with a hammer, but the justice system thought 18 years was enough and turned him loose. One could conclude that the courts deemed this man no longer a threat to society and ultimately, they got it wrong. But, you go ahead and blame the gun Sir.

Well since I asked you to at least try policing "yourselves or something?" How much policing do you think you will need to perform?

So the interactive map posted, apparently, at 4:51 PM, Dec. 22, 2012 with gun owners' addresses focused on southeastern New York. Was used by a 62 year old man in northwestern New York to find a bushmaster by 5:30 AM on the 24th?



Well at least there are a couple of dots near him. Must of just got lucky that one of them had a bushmaster? Or can ex-cons not access public records in New York? Nor do I recall a life sentence being a "requirement" for murder. Hehe... So we are up to blaming not enough guns, the mental health care system, and now the courts. Anything else we should toss in while we are it? Like violent video games?

Wait, are you trying to pretend the "gun" has nothing to do with it? Or are we also now up to needing more guards and prisons?

[Seranthor]

*snip*

Why do I even bother, perhaps I expected too much from you and for that, I apologize. I concede, its the guns fault, it jumped into his hands and forced him to pull its trigger killing those firemen, and I concede it was the hammer that jumped into his hand and mind controlled him to kill his mother.

[Afflixed]

So you say you want 'civil discussion', then here is a lesson, do not attempt to compare other forum posters of which you know nothing about with domestic terrorists, just don't do it, under any circumstance. You want to be treated in a civil way, then dont accuse folks of being drug abusers or criminals, just don't do it. You don't want folks to think you are attacking them, then keep your opinions about another poster's personal matters to yourself.

in short, when you tried to compare me to Tim McVeigh you crossed the line.
When you suggested I was hopped up on 'roids. you crossed the line.
When you suggested without any evidence, that I'd shoot innocent people, you again crossed the line.

And you wonder why I take offense to your comments?

You are being a bit over dramatic man chill out.

It's the internet you should know better.

Don't show emotions on the interwebs people will use it to bait you into acting dumb.

No one is going to take your precious guns my good man to just chillax have a bud or something man <3

[obdigore]

Why do I even bother, perhaps I expected too much from you and for that, I apologize. I concede, its the guns fault, it jumped into his hands and forced him to pull its trigger killing those firemen, and I concede it was the hammer that jumped into his hand and mind controlled him to kill his mother.

Strawman because you don't have a leg to stand on. Guns are a tool. Some weapons only realistic use is killing people. Acting like a firearm does not increase the power of the user beyond a knife or sword or hammer is foolish and that is what SirRobin is getting at. Perhaps you could address his points instead of whining about no one is up to your supreme levels of debate?

[SirRobin]

Why do I even bother, perhaps I expected too much from you and for that, I apologize. I concede, its the guns fault, it jumped into his hands and forced him to pull its trigger killing those firemen, and I concede it was the hammer that jumped into his hand and mind controlled him to kill his mother.

You bother because you think you are right? The back and forth is usually where we counter each other's assertions. Exploring each others' points and counterpoints. Seeing how well they "hold up," so to speak. The outcome being that one's assertions and or claims are found to be weaker, or lacking, compared to the other's. So far, you just don't seem to be doing very well with this subject. At least when it comes to me that is. Now, in my opinion of course, that would be because your assertions and claims are actually, well, lacking.

No offense intended of course, you asked, I answered.

[Afflixed]

While guns don't fire themselves I really think they are far far to easy to legally obtain.

The whole second amendment crap really shouldn't even be brought up. The intention it was written and designed is not the one

every other American seems to think it's for, So may it's time to have it amended to suit the current times, not saying to get rid of it

but maybe to have it re written to be more suitable.

Make it harder to get a gun legally and make people who own guns way more responsible for that gun/s. No one else should have access to your gun except you or wife/husband in the case of needing it for protection or something.. I dunno some americans seem so whatever with their guns like they are toys..it's pretty sad and dangerous.

[Seranthor]

Strawman because you don't have a leg to stand on. Guns are a tool. Some weapons only realistic use is killing people. Acting like a firearm does not increase the power of the user beyond a knife or sword or hammer is foolish and that is what SirRobin is getting at. Perhaps you could address his points instead of whining about no one is up to your supreme levels of debate?

What point do you want me to address, lets be specific here. How did the shooter get the gun? we dont know, cant speak to that. Why did he shoot them? cant adress that because the motive is unknown thusfar. Cant look at the justice system apparently because I got slammed for that. Cant look at his past history, got slammed for that. So, I'll ask again, exactly what point do you want me to address?

[obdigore]

What point do you want me to address, lets be specific here. How did the shooter get the gun? we dont know, cant speak to that. Why did he shoot them? cant adress that because the motive is unknown thusfar. Cant look at the justice system apparently because I got slammed for that. Cant look at his past history, got slammed for that. So, I'll ask again, exactly what point do you want me to address?

The ones in SirRobin's post that you quote, then delete everything he asks, and type 'snip' in the quote window, then try to attack him without responding to his actual arguments?

[Seranthor]

While guns don't fire themselves I really think they are far far to easy to legally obtain.

The whole second amendment crap really shouldn't even be brought up. The intention it was written and designed is not the one

every other American seems to think it's for, So may it's time to have it amended to suit the current times, not saying to get rid of it

but maybe to have it re written to be more suitable.

Make it harder to get a gun legally and make people who own guns way more responsible for that gun/s. No one else should have access to your gun except you or wife/husband in the case of needing it for protection or something.. I dunno some americans seem so whatever with their guns like they are toys..it's pretty sad and dangerous.

I dont reckon you have ever tried to obtain a legal gun, have you? as you demonstrate your lack of knowledge regarding liscensing and registration; As far as having a 'bud', I dont drink, last drink I had was 1989. As far as the 2nd amendment being 'crap', that is clearly your opinion, however is is not mine. Attempting to accurately read the minds of 314,000,000 people to validate your claim what Americans think the 2nd amendment for is what is actually 'crap' as its unlikely you can read anyone's mind, let alone 313,999,999 other minds. No one has access to my guns, except myself

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 10:42 PM ----------

The ones in SirRobin's post that you quote, then delete everything he asks, and type 'snip' in the quote window, then try to attack him without responding to his actual arguments?

Sir, let me help you... I'll explain in detail why I *snip*

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I bolded so you could clearly see where I come to my position from.

Now, since you want to be obtuse about what you want, I'm not going to waste my time attempting to read your mind what you specifically want addressed.

[Daerio]

The whole second amendment crap really shouldn't even be brought up. The intention it was written and designed is not the one

every other American seems to think it's for, So may it's time to have it amended to suit the current times, not saying to get rid of it

but maybe to have it re written to be more suitable.

Can you tell me what you think the 2nd amendment was written for, and why you think it 'no longer applies' or that it needs to be changed? What the result of that would be?

[obdigore]

Sir, let me help you... I'll explain in detail why I *snip*

I bolded so you could clearly see where I come to my position from.

Now, since you want to be obtuse about what you want, I'm not going to waste my time attempting to read your mind what you specifically want addressed.

But you refuse to address any points brought up in the posts you quote then snip everything out of, so why quote or respond in the first place, except to tell the person they are dumb and you aren't going to respond, when you literally just did. Kind of what you just said to me.

It is clear you have no reasonable response to SirRobin, why can't you just admit that? It isn't hard, you can quote one of his posts, snip out everything you want, and say 'I have no reasonable response to you, Sir, so I'm not going to respond to anything you say, Sir.'.

Kind of like what you are doing now, only quite a bit more honest.

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 11:48 PM ----------

Can you tell me what you think the 2nd amendment was written for, and why you think it 'no longer applies' or that it needs to be changed? What the result of that would be?

The second amendment was written to allow the states to call up, train, and arm militias in the advent that the US needed a fighting force. It was put in place because the framers just finished struggling against a strong federal government with a standing army, and they didn't want that. It was written specifically to prevent the federal government from stopping the states from calling up a militia should they feel the needed. It guaranteed no individual right until a horrible SC decision in 2008 that even tied the state legislations' hands regarding laws pertaining to firearms. The hilariously sad part of it is that all the 'states rights!' people are ok with the decision because they get to keep their guns regardless of what the rest of the population thinks, despite claiming that things like slavery and discrimination should be allowed if the state thinks it is ok.

[darkwarrior42]

Honestly, I think the first step in the gun control debate is to standardize gun laws at a federal level. I've made this point before, but it does absolutely no good to have strict gun control laws in one state if you can drive across the border and buy those guns easily somewhere else.

Any security system is only as strong as its weakest link... in this case, gun control laws are only as effective as the state with the weakest laws or enforcement. Many people who buy guns legally do so in their home state, but people buying for criminal use will go wherever it's easiest to procure their product. State troopers and other law enforcement officials watch for this sort of thing, but it's not perfect.

Edit: I post this now because there's a lot of debate about what weapons should be allowed (assault guns, handguns, etc), debate about whether guns should be legal or not.... and a lot of this stems from debate about how effective gun control is, but we can't know how effective it really is until it's consistently and uniformly enforced.

[Grizzly Willy]

And could the "sir" stuff stop? It just comes off as fake and belittling.

[obdigore]

And could the "sir" stuff stop? It just comes off as fake and belittling.

He was calling everybody 'miss' a couple days ago and got called out on it. I guess he just changed to 'sir'.

[Daerio]

The second amendment was written to allow the states to call up, train, and arm militias in the advent that the US needed a fighting force. It was put in place because the framers just finished struggling against a strong federal government with a standing army, and they didn't want that. It was written specifically to prevent the federal government from stopping the states from calling up a militia should they feel the needed. It guaranteed no individual right until a horrible SC decision in 2008 that even tied the state legislations' hands regarding laws pertaining to firearms. The hilariously sad part of it is that all the 'states rights!' people are ok with the decision because they get to keep their guns regardless of what the rest of the population thinks, despite claiming that things like slavery and discrimination should be allowed if the state thinks it is ok.

This is incorrect. I have no idea where you got the impression that it's somehow a "States VS Federal" issue.

It's to keep guns in the hands of the populace to ensure the government works for and fears the common people, rather than the opposite. (as it is today)

"Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." - Tench Coxe

Maybe you were taught that it was written for the defense of the nation from foreign entities, it WAS intended to make sure the government did not enslave the people - and the writers had just finished fighting a war against this.