Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Mayhem]

mayhem lol you should have posted something to PROVE your point of 70% obtained by straw purchases, because that is not what that article says bud lol. nice try.

bought their firearm at a flea market or gun show, about 12% from a retail store or pawnshop, and 80% from family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source.

what kind of purchase is the 80% figure then?

[Tinykong]

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

and your link?

This data is really out of date.

[Mayhem]

This data is really out of date.

you have more recent numbers?

[MasterOfNone]

what kind of purchase is the 80% figure then?

that is eligibility to buy a gun lol. not straw purchases based on felonies. read your own article bud. it even goes on to say that the statistic was recorded with questions not RELATING to being a criminal for people who purchased a gun. your statement was bold and wrong let me show you again

about 70% or more are obtained through straw purchases, making it harder to obtain guns through means of straw purchases will reduce number of illegal guns

a straw purchase is not equal to people meeting the requirements for buying a gun dude. defined: A straw purchase or nominee purchase is any purchase wherein an agent agrees to acquire a good or service for someone who is unable or unwilling to purchase the good or service himself, and the agent transfers the goods/services to that person after purchasing them. admitting to having a firearm due to WHATEVER reason is not the same as obtaining through said straw purchase

here is another...this one seems more accurate than your outlandish claim. btw im not saying it doesnt happen. im saying it doesnt happen as much as you think it does.

http://www.dontlie.org/faq.cfm

[Masark]

i see where you are going with this but it doesnt have much bearing considering the most deadly school shooting in us history was done with semi-auto pistols. a persons ability to be proficient with a firearm is not subject to its length or the fact that it might be obvious.

Evidently you aren't getting where I am going.

Short rifles are restricted.
Handguns are restricted.
i.e. readily concealable firearms are restricted.

[Tinykong]

you have more recent numbers?

I'm not the one making the claims. I'm just pointing out that data from almost 20 years ago is out of date, especially considering the changes of prison populations and crime rates from 1991-1997 to today.

[Mayhem]

that is eligibility to buy a gun lol. not straw purchases based on felonies. read your own article bud. it even goes on to say that the statistic was recorded with questions not RELATING to being a criminal for people who purchased a gun. your statement was bold and wrong let me show you again



a straw purchase is not equal to people meeting the requirements for buying a gun dude. defined: A straw purchase or nominee purchase is any purchase wherein an agent agrees to acquire a good or service for someone who is unable or unwilling to purchase the good or service himself, and the agent transfers the goods/services to that person after purchasing them. admitting to having a firearm due to WHATEVER reason is not the same as obtaining through said straw purchase

here is another...this one seems more accurate than your outlandish claim. btw im not saying it doesnt happen. im saying it doesnt happen as much as you think it does.

http://www.dontlie.org/faq.cfm

ah i see, thanks, i thought straw purchase was a more broad term, i stand corrected

though your claim that the most guns used by criminals are stolen is where to find?

[Svifnymr]

i see where you are going with this but it doesnt have much bearing considering the most deadly school shooting in us history was done with semi-auto pistols. a persons ability to be proficient with a firearm is not subject to its length or the fact that it might be obvious.

He wasn't talking about assault weapons or anything, we were talking about handguns and I mentioned that it's easy to conceal a lot of stuff given Canadian weather. He was just reiterating that smaller long guns are also registered as handguns. I was more talking about about their size limit for small handguns (min 4" barrel), but wasn't clear.

[Mayhem]

I'm not the one making the claims. I'm just pointing out that data from almost 20 years ago is out of date, especially considering the changes of prison populations and crime rates from 1991-1997 to today.

oh, yeah, thanks for telling us that 1997 is a while ago

[MasterOfNone]

Evidently you aren't getting where I am going.

Short rifles are restricted.
Handguns are restricted.
i.e. readily concealable firearms are restricted.

my mistake was wrongly interpreting your point

[Rukentuts]

lol. yes because the only statistics with valid variables are the ones you believe right?

Yes we all know controlling variables really means cooking the books.

[MasterOfNone]

ah i see, thanks, i thought straw purchase was a more broad term, i stand corrected

though your claim that the most guns used by criminals are stolen is where to find?

through the last source it would seem that equal amounts are obtained from family or friends or illegal activities on the street. i dont have a source in front of me at the moment to "prove" that most of the illegal ones come from theft. im sure a decent percentage does and if i came across as that i apologize. my point was that criminals get guns by many illegal means (which by the last page would incorporate 40% or more)(the more meaning giving a known felon family member possession of a firearm which is also illegal means). tbh i dont know if there even is an exact statistic on where they "came" from. the point i was making is that there is already laws making these actions illegal. criminals dont care about the law and will obtain them anyway. sorry for the confusion.

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He wasn't talking about assault weapons or anything, we were talking about handguns and I mentioned that it's easy to conceal a lot of stuff given Canadian weather. He was just reiterating that smaller long guns are also registered as handguns. I was more talking about about their size limit for small handguns (min 4" barrel), but wasn't clear.

must be a state to state difference in some of those carry laws.

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Yes we all know controlling variables really means cooking the books.

so accept your variables as truth but when i tell you to look into violent crime statistics (once again) from the federal government, i am working on bad numbers?
man if only my tinfoil hat fit a little better....btw i can be sarcastic too

[Rukentuts]

so accept your variables as truth but when i tell you to look into violent crime statistics (once again) from the federal government, i am working on bad numbers?

Yeah silly me for not thinking raw data means anything in an experimental sense.

[MasterOfNone]

Yeah silly me for not thinking raw data means anything in an experimental sense.

well we all cant be conspiracy theorists believing in the great government conspiracy to lie about criminal statistics to prove rukenuts the oh so accomplished forum goer to be exonerated in his snarky proof-less responses.

/sarcasm toggled off...for now

[Svifnymr]

ah i see, thanks, i thought straw purchase was a more broad term, i stand corrected

though your claim that the most guns used by criminals are stolen is where to find?

From that link, the 40% that got a gun from family or friend were probably "straw purchases", though "rented or borrowed" may change that, and of course it doesn't specify "stole from family or friend", maybe that's "other". A straw-purchase would mean that the family/friend bought the gun specifically to give to the criminal.

Separate from that is a 10% that got gun through "theft" so maybe that includes stealing from relatives rather than the prior category.

Drug dealer/ black market, not sure why they're separate, so we'll just combine them into 30% to make things easier.

By the same token, "retail outlet purchase" we'll round off to 14% and forget the categories since they're meaningless which venue legally sold a gun to someone. Some of this may include straw purchases as well, if they asked Bob where he got his gun (which his cousin Jim had illegally purchased for him from a dealer) he may have said "from a dealer" rather than "from a relative" or even "on the black market".

Anyway, the point!
Full registration or Universal Background checks:
14% dealer: No effect, bought legally.
10% theft: no effect, stolen
30% black market: no effect, guns illegal anyway
40% relatives/friends: little effect (if the friend/ family member knows he's a criminal, they'll not transfer the gun, report it stolen/ lost instead. If he's not a criminal, the transfer will still be legal. The little effect it will have is on a friend selling to a friend he doesn't know is a criminal, he would no longer go through with it.)


Storage Requirements would hinder Theft and Black Market (assuming those guns are also theft guns for the most part) to some extent.

Training requirements: obviuosly no effect on any of these numbers

[Tinykong]

oh, yeah, thanks for telling us that 1997 is a while ago

Apparently you missed the part where crime rates and prison populations are vastly different than when this study was conducted, and you using it to make claims about today is erroneous.

edit: in case you'd like to review

[Mayhem]

the point i was making is that there is already laws making these actions illegal. criminals dont care about the law and will obtain them anyway. sorry for the confusion.

that´s exactly what we´re talking about, it´s obviously not enough that it´s illegal, also if you´re selling a weapon unknowingly to someone who´s not allowed to own a weapon it´s kind of hard to prove illegality, i mean no one knows and you´re not required to know

also a street buy seems to be not illegal as it was street buy/illegal and even mentioned street buy or illegal source

[Svifnymr]

oh, yeah, thanks for telling us that 1997 is a while ago

1997 may not be a long time ago for some things, but for this discussion some things DO make that a bit out of date. They compare 1991 data to 1997 data, noting that in 1993 the Brady Law went into effect. Some facets of the Brady Law didn't go into effect right away, and other things changed for gun laws following that. They also have a very bad way of labeling the categories, as I hope I illustrated in my other post to some extent.

It's not a great survey, but I don't think we're arguing about the results of it too much, just that it's hard to pull meaningful information from it.

[MasterOfNone]

that´s exactly what we´re talking about, it´s obviously not enough that it´s illegal, also if you´re selling a weapon unknowingly to someone who´s not allowed to own a weapon it´s kind of hard to prove illegality, i mean no one knows and you´re not required to know

also a street buy seems to be not illegal as it was street buy/illegal and even mentioned street buy or illegal source

true in which case i would agree with a piece of legislation making that a requirement.

Storage Requirements would hinder Theft and Black Market (assuming those guns are also theft guns for the most part) to some extent.

SV: i agreed it might hinder but do less good than a possible proposed legislation for even used gun sales to be registered by law and conducted accordingly

[Mayhem]

Apparently you missed the part where crime rates and prison populations are vastly different than when this study was conducted, and you using it to make claims about today is erroneous.

edit: in case you'd like to review

and that has what to do with the statistics?

again if you have recent numbers that would be great, if not you´re just making the assumtion that the statistics are different now, because!

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true in which case i would agree with a piece of legislation making that a requirement.



SV: i agreed it might hinder but do less good than a possible proposed legislation for even used gun sales to be registered by law and conducted accordingly

making it harder to get guns by other means than the black market will increase pricing which will be another deterrent