America's Conquest

[Bakis]

I don't disagree it's not an American problem, however, it's more prevalent to Americans, it's rather more occuring to me, just because I'm American.

So you agree that alot of nations suffer from this, see previous examples.
Just that it is more prevalent to you as an american, so what is the point of this thread if we can all agree that its frustrating to hear what ones ancestors did regardless of being german, american, russian, japanese?

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 03:46 AM ----------

:|

You're shitting me.

All the time in political debates, especially when concerning guns (for some reason).

Well, then I dont hear or read the same as you.
Dont think any sane person bring up the indian genocide when speaking of todays gun issues, if they do, ignore them

[Tierbook]

Americans are often seen as trying to impose their will over the rest of the world, thus continuing their "conquest". The USA is seen as a super-potency who has no rules nor ethics on how they treat external nations (ex: native Americans, middle-east, etc), creating wars and feuds for ideological or influence (ex: vietnam, cuba, etc). Then Hollywood and politicians try to show the USA as some god-saviors-of-the-world, who intervene in third-world-countries to supposedly save their populace from tyrants. What people do when they point out that "americans killed natives" is that it really isn't fair for americans to portray themselves as god-saviors-of-the-world.

And yes, our ancestors did it. Everyone's ancestors did it. My ancestors, for example, enslaved and leeched off of Africa and Brazil for generations. They mass murdered for conquest. While that conquest was "heroic", just like american conquest was, and generally give us reasons to be proud, as my people, at a time, held one of the biggest empires in history, that is no reason to portray ourselves as "the good guys". Most of the world already "got over it". Only some factions (The USA, extremist muslims, North Korea, and others) still hold grudges and try to think themselves as "good guys" while others are "bad guys". That is a pretty sad and pathetic thing to happen in this day and age, because that only leads to more hate and war.

I don't hate the USA though, nor am I trying to bash it in this post. I'm merely pointing out the facts, and what some people think of the USA.

wait what.

[ringpriest]

I've really been getting annoyed at the "'MERIKUNS KILT TEH INDIANS SO EVIL". Of course we did, it's Conquest.

The people of that time were trying to get away from the oppression of the King, and I hear this come up all the time, "Why did they oppress the Indians then?"

Conquest.

I never see anyone who attacks America with "Indians guise" who also says, "Boston Massacre."

It's conquest, it's happened all throughout history, Mongols, Romans, French.

What is seriously the big deal with it?

I think you need a better word. 'Conquest' means victory via combat, with a connotation of wealth for the victor. What was done by the Mongols in Asia, by the Romans to Carthage, by the French in North Africa, and by the Europeans to the Native Americans goes beyond mere conquest. A better word might be 'colonialism', although there's a case to be made for 'genocide' as well.

At the risk of being a little simplistic, what's 'wrong' with killing entire nations and taking their land is that it fails the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. No sane human being wants a world where everything they value can be taken or destroyed at a moments notice by others. Such a world would be a hellish place for everyone. So we end up with things like social compacts, moral codes, laws, etc. Your examples of 'conquest' are cases where greed overcame empathy. A big part of 'conquest' (or colonialism) consists of the conquerors coming up with justifications for their actions, because they cannot accept the truth about what they're doing. Conquest has no place in civilization, and life without civilization is pretty wretched. That's what's wrong with it.

[Sicarus]

Americans are often seen as trying to impose their will over the rest of the world, thus continuing their "conquest". The USA is seen as a super-potency who has no rules nor ethics on how they treat external nations (ex: native Americans, middle-east, etc), creating wars and feuds for ideological or influence (ex: vietnam, cuba, etc). Then Hollywood and politicians try to show the USA as some god-saviors-of-the-world, who intervene in third-world-countries to supposedly save their populace from tyrants. What people do when they point out that "americans killed natives" is that it really isn't fair for americans to portray themselves as god-saviors-of-the-world.

And yes, our ancestors did it. Everyone's ancestors did it. My ancestors, for example, enslaved and leeched off of Africa and Brazil for generations. They mass murdered for conquest. While that conquest was "heroic" (in the way that it was a very hard thing to achieve), just like american conquest was, and generally give us reasons to be proud, as my people, at a time, held one of the biggest empires in history, that is no reason to portray ourselves as "the good guys". There is no good guys in war, only winners and losers. Most of the world already "got over it". Only some factions (The USA, extremist muslims, North Korea, and others) still hold grudges and try to think themselves as "good guys" while others are "bad guys". That is a pretty sad and pathetic thing to happen in this day and age, because that only leads to more hate and war.

I don't hate the USA though, nor am I trying to bash it in this post. I'm merely pointing out the facts, and what some people think of the USA.

Quite agreeable.

It's rather terrible we didn't enforce isolation. Vietnam and the Middle East wouldn't be an issue.

[GreatOak]

Then why did germany have to pay war reprisals and hurting hundred thousands or millions innocent people, who were born after 1945, this way? Or any other loser nation after any other war?

If you want to be proud of your nation, be a patriot, then you have to stand for its past crimes too. You can't just simply take what you like and ignore what you don't like.

Uh, WW2 didn't even happen 100 years ago and many people are still alive. They only had to pay over time because they couldn't afford to do it all at once.

I'm half black. Would I have to pay myself because some of my ancestors might have owned some of my other ancestors? It's immoral to punish people who had nothing to do with past crimes.

Acknowledging that evil things were done and learning from them is enough.

[cFortyfive]

Especially when it comes to persecution in the modern era towards Americans. :|

I've never actually ever seen or met a german/russian get bothered about Nazis/Stalin.

As a German I can't take you the slightest bit serious. Not the tiniest. If I wouldn't have enough prejudices I'd simply state you are trolling hard.

[Knight Gil]

wait what.

I might have not explained well, because it's kinda late, and I'm tired. What I mean is that both the USA, extremist muslims, North Korea, etc, still hold grudges for past wars, and still keep spreading their propaganda to be seen as liberators, freedom fighters, etc, while painting their enemies as monsters who must be defeated. The USA has the red scare. Extremist muslims have the the jihad and that kind of shit. North Korea is still prepared for a possible confrontation with the USA, south korea, whatever. All of them and others are still perpetuating their petty feuds

[Letmesleep]

I've really been getting annoyed at the "'MERIKUNS KILT TEH INDIANS SO EVIL". Of course we did, it's Conquest.

The people of that time were trying to get away from the oppression of the King, and I hear this come up all the time, "Why did they oppress the Indians then?"

Conquest.

I never see anyone who attacks America with "Indians guise" who also says, "Boston Massacre."

It's conquest, it's happened all throughout history, Mongols, Romans, French.

What is seriously the big deal with it? They did it a long time ago, stop persecuting us in the modern era. :|

Refusing to admit what our ancestors did to the natives was anything but despicable is as bad as people continuing to hold it over the current generation's heads. Stop making excuses for one of the darkest periods in our country's history.

[GreatOak]

Americans are often seen as trying to impose their will over the rest of the world, thus continuing their "conquest". The USA is seen as a super-potency who has no rules nor ethics on how they treat external nations (ex: native Americans, middle-east, etc), creating wars and feuds for ideological or influence (ex: vietnam, cuba, etc). Then Hollywood and politicians try to show the USA as some god-saviors-of-the-world, who intervene in third-world-countries to supposedly save their populace from tyrants. What people do when they point out that "americans killed natives" is that it really isn't fair for americans to portray themselves as god-saviors-of-the-world.

And yes, our ancestors did it. Everyone's ancestors did it. My ancestors, for example, enslaved and leeched off of Africa and Brazil for generations. They mass murdered for conquest. While that conquest was "heroic" (in the way that it was a very hard thing to achieve), just like american conquest was, and generally give us reasons to be proud, as my people, at a time, held one of the biggest empires in history, that is no reason to portray ourselves as "the good guys". There is no good guys in war, only winners and losers. Most of the world already "got over it". Only some factions (The USA, extremist muslims, North Korea, and others) still hold grudges and try to think themselves as "good guys" while others are "bad guys". That is a pretty sad and pathetic thing to happen in this day and age, because that only leads to more hate and war.

I don't hate the USA though, nor am I trying to bash it in this post. I'm merely pointing out the facts, and what some people think of the USA.

Americans don't hold grudges. If we did, Japan and Britain wouldn't be two of the most beloved nations here.

You're confusing politicians with the people. The government is not an extension of the people in the way that you would think it is. It's owned by special interests.

[Xenofreak]

The USA has the red scare.

Dude! Can I borrow your time machine, because you're clearly posting from the 70's.

[Sicarus]

As a German I can't take you the slightest bit serious. Not the tiniest. If I wouldn't have enough prejudices I'd simply state you are trolling hard.

Am I supposed to make a mom joke here?

Then I guess it's just me. Never really thought it nice to bother Germans/Russians with that kind of shit (they're both actually pretty admirable countries).

[Wells]

Dude! Can I borrow your time machine, because you're clearly posting from the 70's.

Are you kidding? Red Scare is alive and well.

[Knight Gil]

I've never actually ever seen or met a german/russian get bothered about Nazis/Stalin.

As a German I can't take you the slightest bit serious. Not the tiniest.

Indeed. Some people still think of germans as nazis. Hell, some people think that Angela Merkel is a nazi searching for revenge for their loss in WWII, just like Hitler over the WWI.

It's just like extremist Muslims hating Christians for the crusades, centuries ago. Or some blacks hating whites for Africans' enslavement. Or some europeans thinking that the muslims are going to take over europe the next few decades

[Adam Jensen]

Yet Americans of the modern era are persecuted for it.

YOUR ANCESTORS DID IT, is not a viable excuse.

Bingo.

I did not kill the indians.
I did not slaughter the buffalo

I did not do those things, those were centuries done by the time I was born.

Should there be some sort of reparation? Perhaps, but what can we do? Can't change the past. Better to just move on.

Hell, I think it's stupid to blame modern germans for WWII and that was only 70 something years ago.

[GreatOak]

Are you kidding? Red Scare is alive and well.

Amongst anyone under 40, not really.

[Tierbook]

I might have not explained well, because it's kinda late, and I'm tired. What I mean is that both the USA, extremist muslims, North Korea, etc, still hold grudges for past wars, and still keep spreading their propaganda to be seen as liberators, freedom fighters, etc, while painting their enemies as monsters who must be defeated. The USA has the red scare. Extremist muslims have the the jihad and that kind of shit. North Korea is still prepared for a possible confrontation with the USA, south korea, whatever. All of them and others are still perpetuating their petty feuds

well the Red scare has been over since the fall of the soviet union and NK and SK are still at war

[Wells]

Amongst anyone under 40, not really.

Maybe you didn't pay attention to politics recently. OBAMA IS A COMMUNIST was heard pretty often.

And Romney called Russia our "number one enemy"

That's the Red Scare right there broski.

[Adam Jensen]

Refusing to admit what our ancestors did to the natives was anything but despicable is as bad as people continuing to hold it over the current generation's heads. Stop making excuses for one of the darkest periods in our country's history.

True, but we should also put it to rest. Leave it in the history books and don't bring it up as if current Americans are somehow guilty by association to a crime committed 100+ years ago.

[Sicarus]

Amongst anyone under 40, not really.

OMFG KOMMUNIST UP IN DIS BITCH!

lol for srs, Red scare?

Go back to the 70's man, hah.

[Lakrin]

Don't get me wrong, I agree it shouldn't be forgotten, ignored, or white-washed over, I just don't get the attitude of "Fuck you for what your ancestors did centuries ago!"; or even the "Fuck me for what my ancestors did centuries ago." It just strikes me as utterly ridiculous to try to guilt trip people over something they had absolutely nothing to do with.

Unlike the OP however, I don't believe this is somehow an "American" only problem.



You say that as if the vast majority of America doesn't get it! I don't think there's anyone except those irrational to the point of delusion who don't "get" that what we did to the Indians was wrong. There's a difference however, between knowing what happened and knowing it was wrong and trying to guilt trip people who have no link what-so-ever to those events.

The best way we can honor the civilizations that were here before us that we had a hand in destroying is by learning about them and learning about their demise. Letting it go by without discussion is an insult to the Native Americans as individuals and as societies that were lost. The blame game isn't productive; learning concrete facts and holding a resolution in our hearts and minds to not go back to that era, however, is productive.

It is true that any empire in historic record has something dark in their past. The reason why we here in America don't seem to hear the end of the Native American debate is that we don't seem to have learned our lesson at all. We still tromp around the globe infringing on the sovereignty of other nations both with physical troops and with corporate money doing the fighting for our government. In fact, the recent war in Iraq could be viewed as little more than an extension of the old Manifest Destiny - we are America, therefore might makes right.

I don't say this to make anyone feel bad. As pointed out, we are not our ancestors. In fact, I even have Native American heritage in my family, as well as Irish and German. I'm not directly related to any of the original colonists. That doesn't mean I get - or we, as a country- get to sweep this under the rug. We have to accept that it happened and learn from it and then stop making the same mistakes with different names.