Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[celinamuna]

All i hope for, is if alliance gets to kill gramosh, horde gets to kill Jaina.

[Kronik85]

And how is it not? They think, therefore they are. I myself consider it superior to organic life, because an undead mind is free of needs, emotion, and hormones. And who knows how long they last, AFAIK, if they have enough will and self-consciousness to resist descending to mindless state, Forsaken are immortal.

Pratchett fan? Waiting for Reggie Shoe NPC.

[Deleted]

Well I dunno, when I quested there as a BE, they tried to kill me at sight. Let's see, foreign dudes, on my land, trying to kill me. Yep, invasion. Either this or you should say that orcs never invaded Ashenvale.

Alliance spied on them and secretly invaded their territory. Forsaken lent them aid in fighting the Scourge. That was an obvious choice.

Honesty. Alliance did what was natural and appropriate, but not something Mohathma Ghandi would approve of. They did as humans, not as saints.

The morality of an angelic creature of pure Light energy is beyond our comprehension, I believe. But if Khadgar didn't lie anout how enlightened the Naaru are, M'uru knew what he was doing. Consider him the Bllod Elf Jesus that died for their sins.

And how is it not? They think, therefore they are. I myself consider it superior to organic life, because an undead mind is free of needs, emotion, and hormones. And who knows how long they last, AFAIK, if they have enough will and self-consciousness to resist descending to mindless state, Forsaken are immortal.

We will have to agree to disagree. If you want to live as a rotting corpse that's your prerogative. But you aren't really living, just being kept alive. The undead can't procreate; they can't really feel. All they can do is spread their misery, and that is wrong.

The Alliance never officially invaded Silvermoon. The Alliance wasn't at war with the Blood Elves. That's just a fact that you cannot overlook, and considering that Kaelthas sided with Illidan it's only natural to be suspicious. You are looking for justifications to hate the Alliance when in reality it doesn't even matter. Blizzard would have given the Blood Elves to the Horde regardless. They wanted to attract more players to the Horde and Blood Elves succeeded in doing that.

Mutual trade and protection is one thing. Becoming a part of the Horde which is hostile to the Alliance or in the very least a rival, is quite another. Now the Blood Elves are essentially protecting the Lich Queen after the Lich King wiped out their homeland. Ironically, the irony seems to be lost on them.

[Radux]

If we could all stop with the insults/flaming/ad hominem attacks, that would be fantastic. It's against the rules and really derails the thread.

Further instances will be dealt with accordingly.

Thank you.

[Haven]

Pratchett fan? Waiting for Reggie Shoe NPC.

Haven't read that one, but I like his books a lot.

We will have to agree to disagree. If you want to live as a rotting corpse that's your prerogative. But you aren't really living, just being kept alive. The undead can't procreate; they can't really feel. All they can do is spread their misery, and that is wrong.

Define "really living". Do you, like all, mean "obscured by chasing sensual and moral satisfaction"?

The Alliance never officially invaded Silvermoon.

Just like a bully won't admit he hit someone.

The Alliance wasn't at war with the Blood Elves. That's just a fact that you cannot overlook, and considering that Kaelthas sided with Illidan it's only natural to be suspicious. You are looking for justifications to hate the Alliance when in reality it doesn't even matter.

This doesn't cancel what happened. The Horde could've sent spies, too, but it sent help. The impact of war in Gilneas isn't canceled by the fact that it was a plot device to give worgen to the Alliance.

Mutual trade and protection is one thing. Becoming a part of the Horde which is hostile to the Alliance or in the very least a rival, is quite another. Now the Blood Elves are essentially protecting the Lich Queen after the Lich King wiped out their homeland. Ironically, the irony seems to be lost on them.

Everything is better than going back into slavery of racist bigots which will make you into cannon fodder again, preaching human superiority.

See, two can play this game.

[Deleted]

I can't believe you are going to sit there and try to justify her bigotry as the act of an intelligent leader.

When the US finds spies, we don't arrest the ambassador and every foreign national from that country.

I've been saying several times that it has nothing to do with race. You are comparing it to situations that are just different.

That's because you don't like the thought that your precious Alliance actually had slaves. Forced labor, figths to the death for the sake of entertaining the masters - what else has to be there to consider that slavery? Either this, or even Old Horde never ever had slaves.

That comment wasn't even aimed at that. I didn't justify gladiator fights, I simply compared the way they are forced to work to the way our prisoners are forced to work. And why shouldn't they do some work, should they just be allowed to sit on their ass the whole day and get shelter and food for free? Kind of feels more like being a slave having to go to work every day.

[Darth-Piekus]

Haven you say you consider the life of the dead superior. You know who was the last one who considered the same? The Lich King. You know what happened to him? Got pwned by the rest of Azeroth which wanted to live. Want the same thing for Sylvannas?
I suppose you like undeath because it's a video game and it's just pixels but I am sure that if it was real you wouldn't like it at all.

[Haven]

Haven you say you consider the life of the dead superior. You know who was the last one who considered the same? The Lich King. You know what happened to him? Got pwned by the rest of Azeroth which wanted to live. Want the same thing for Sylvannas?
I suppose you like undeath because it's a video game and it's just pixels but I am sure that if it was real you wouldn't like it at all.

You're being extremely inconsiderate - just like every holier-than-thou paladin. Open-mindedness is a bit too far beyond your level. Generic necromancers in games are just cartoonish villains, conveniently set in charge of undead armies (because undead is easily recognized as bad) bent on world domination, which is both bad and stupid, because it deprives the undead of their refilling pool. They are depicted as emotionless, yet most of them seethe with irrational hatred, anger and frustration. Just because undead are so easy to brand as evil, all other cliches stick to it - greed, anger, stupidity, and other vices, easily leading to the downfall.

Sylvanas and her Forsaken are different, because, surprisingly, they play along with the good guys. Let's not forget that they saved Azeroth once - when Grand Apothecary Putress invented a cure for Lich King's pre-Wrath zombie plague. So far their story is extremely interesting - to a degree due to the righteous paladins' cognitive dissonance they keep causing. For 8 years now there are people who screah with foam at their mouths that Sylvanas is a Lich Queen, that she will try to take over the world and that she will be defeated by some glorious hero in the process. Yet that just doesn't happen, because she's just being reasonable rather than megalomaniacal.

As for me, I'm both a buddhist and transhumanist. Play Deus Ex: Human Revolution to get the idea of what's to come. Mother nature designed us to live to maturity, breed, protect progeny until it matures, and die - here, that's the meaning of life for ya. We seek more. We seek enlightenment and a higher purpose, even though there isn't any. I just seek tranquility, order and longevity. I'd gladly embrace any kind of enhancement to my body, be it cybernetic organs and limbs, zerg infection mutating me to a better, more resilient species, or undeath that would render me immortal and pure of all things that pollute the mind. In D&D, I always played monk, because he gradually renders himself immune to disease, poison, certain magics, old age, hunger, breaks language barriers and then in the end becomes immortal and not-quite-human-but-something-better. If only that was possible in the real world...

[Darth-Piekus]

Very well then. I shal wait and see who is right when the next Warchief takes action with the whole Lich Queen incident.

[Darth-Piekus]

Kangodo do you realise when the whole Lich Queen started. It's not 5 years. It's 1 year only now from Cataclysm. I liked the old Forsaken when they were trying to get revenge on Arthas and trying to find a cure for that curse. I don't like this new type of Forsaken. It's good that you like being an undead but you don't have the right to force that on me. The next Warchief is already confirmed that will take action against Sylvannas to end this whole Lich Queen thing.

[Verdugo]

but you don't have the right to force that on me.

But you have the right to force something on us?

[Darth-Piekus]

That is the problem that most people don't understand here. The Alliance from the start of Cataclysm is on the defensive. Garrosh is the one attacking. The developers themselves confirmed it already. I don't want to force anything to anyone.

What I meant is that I am not forcing anything to anyone. Garrosh is the one who wants to dominate to all of Azeroth without having any right to do so. Sylvannas is the one who enforces the Curse of Undeath to the living. I wouldn't mind them at all if they could sit in a corner of the world and prosper as long as they leave us alone.

[Darth-Piekus]

Yes indeed I forgot about that Wrathgate Incident. It was though 2 years ago and not 5 years ago.

[Darth-Piekus]

True November 2008 but still I am right it's 4 years and 3 months not 5 years.

Actually there wasn't much of an arguement. There were the majority which didn't like what she did and the minority who said otherwise.

[rowaasr13]

Not the Sunreavers. ONE Sunreaver, Fanlyr, answering directly to Garrosh. No other Sunreavers were involved. If you take Aethas' actions as indicative of the faction, the Sunreavers have always opposed Garrosh's overaggressive actions. The faction itself had been in Dalaran for some time, completely independent of the Horde, until Wrath.

Let me dispell your pathetic Horde-justifying propaganda with direct quote from quest text: "Furthermore, the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality by assisting the Horde with this operation." Please shut your lies of good and innocent Sunreavers where they belong.

[rowaasr13]

And Sylvanas hasn't been a fan since he threw her people into the meat grinder at Gilneas and refused to allow her to use either the plague (to avoid more casualties) or the Val'kyr (to create more Forsaken).

New record of whitewashing from die-hard Horde fans! Well, I always said that even eating children would've been praised by them as some heroic deed, but I don't even have to go out and show it - they do it all themselves.

---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 04:02 PM ----------

That was the entire argument :P because she didn't really do anything yet people blamed this attack on Sylvanas.[COLOR="red"]
Spoken by Fanlyr Silverthorn, agent of Garrosh and traiter to the Sunreavers.
Maybe you missed the other direct quotes where the rest of the Sunreavers had no idea about what he was doing?

I finished Domination Offensive quest line and didn't notice any trial and execution of this disgusting "traitor". Could you please point when does it happen?

Also only one single nameless Sunreaver was wondering "what's going on, why Lady Jaina is doing this". The rest of random NPC were quite arrogant and murderous in their responses, while named NPCs outright shown hatred and disdain to both Alliance and Kirin Tor.

Additionally, pretty much every attack in Alliance quest line is justified. Care to explain why did you kill Lieutenant Corwin? Try to give proper explanation or I'll have to correct you with another direct quote from "misunderstood peaceful elves".

[Darth-Piekus]

True indeed.The arguement did started from back then. I remember there were two sides. One claimed that the Forsaken started going Scourge against the Horde and the Alliance and the rest mentioned that it was a betrayal from Varimathras. I still don't know which side was right. Both had legitimate proof to be right. The Forsaken Supporters had the words of Sylvannas about Varimathras and her rearrurance that she never intended to do what Putress did. The Forsaken Haters had the Vanilla questline where as a player you helped prepare the plague for the ultimate cause and that was the usage against all living and the whole thing that something more was going on than a simple betrayal.

But the whole outrage mostly happened when Sylvannas started doing all those things in Cataclysm.

The way Fanlyr said those words in that sentence sounded more like a Sunreaver than a traitor.

Using the weapons of the Lich King plaguing the Alliance Soldiers and every wildlife around risks also of forcing the Neutral Factions like the Kirin Tor did to turn against the Horde. That is also a fact.

[rowaasr13]

Using a plague on the Alliance-soldiers results into less Horde casualties. Fact.
What the hell are you even arguing?

Oh, right. Wiping Alliance filth be their soldiers or civilians is not "casualities", it is God-emperror Garrosh justtified honorful highest virtuous deed in the World of Brains-hopped-on-Murderous-Alien-Green-Warmonger-Mongols-Craft.

[Verdugo]

Oh, right. Wiping Alliance filth be their soldiers or civilians is not "casualities", it is God-emperror Garrosh justtified honorful highest virtuous deed in the World of Brains-hopped-on-Horde-Craft.

Do you consider killed Forsaken or Orcs as casualties?

Also, he was not talking about honor, glory or simmilar crap. He was talking about logical thing to do.

[Darth-Piekus]

The Logical Thing To Do will now put his Horde in a very dangerous situation. After the Siege of Orgrimmar the victors (that is the Alliance with the Neutral Alliance Sided Factions) will decide the fate of the rest of the Shattered Horde. Those Logical Thing To Do will be begging for Thrall to save them because most of the people there will want them finished. They will want to eliminate them now that they are weakened so they can never again threaten Azeroth.

Tell the victors then what The Logical Thing To Do should be.

Take for example the end of the Second War. All of the victors wanted the Orcs dead so they would never again threaten Azeroth. Only Terenas and the young Varian let them live.