Modern Feminism - What's the deal?

[Rukentuts]

It's up to your own fucking risk preferences.

Most authorities try to keep areas as safe as they can with whatever budget they have. But the police can't be everywhere at once.

Some places are just dangerous, and you should avoid them regardless of your gender.

Indeed, but it still doesn't fault the victim when something does happen.

[Deleted]

I'm not talking about just areas

Well, behaviour too. For example, if you have 500 € sticking out your back pocket, you can't expect it to remain there with certainty when you walk in public.

That doesn't mean that the thief is excused, or that society wouldn't want to stop things like this from happening. But in some cases it's just not possible to prevent it. And you have to understand this reality.

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 12:06 AM ----------

Indeed, but it still doesn't fault the victim when something does happen.

Yes and no. You fault a person for making a stupid choice, regardless if it results in getting raped/robbed/assaulted or not.

[smelltheglove]

but as we have seen, taking steps to remove said opportunity also brings cries of sexism against men.

i keep seeing you say this, and i have no idea what you are alluding to. care to elaborate?

[Deleted]

Yes and no. You fault a person for making a stupid choice, regardless if it results in getting raped/robbed/assaulted or not.

So, purely hypothetically - if a friend of mine, who has been a friend since when I was 7 would rape me - I made a stupid choice?

[starlord]

Well, behaviour too. For example, if you have 500 € sticking out your back pocket, you can't expect it to remain there with certainty when you walk in public.

That doesn't mean that the thief is excused, or that society wouldn't want to stop things like this from happening. But in some cases it's just not possible to prevent it. And you have to understand this reality.

you are still saying that a woman who is raped was "putting herself out there", in the same sense as someone "leaving money out if their back pocket."

that is a pretty horrible comparison.

---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 04:13 PM ----------

i keep seeing you say this, and i have no idea what you are alluding to. care to elaborate?

a thread a few days ago about the subject.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...omen-so-afraid

[smelltheglove]

a thread a few days ago about the subject.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...omen-so-afraid

a 65 page thread to sift through? no thanks, and nevermind

[starlord]

a 65 page thread to sift through? no thanks, and nevermind

the first post tells you the rest of it, pretty much.

So reading these forums lately(lots of posts by a few certain members about this) as well as a post a women shared on facebook got me thinking why are some women so scared of men been potential rapist, i have also seen women cross the road when approaching then cross back down the block to avoid walking past me and other men. I have seen and head numerous things lately about how all women should assume all men are rapist unless they are verified been ok (friend, friend of a friend etc..)
So women of MMO champ, do you constantly walk around thinking all men are rapist, do you live a constant state of fear. Cause this just seems odd to tarnish all random men you encounter as rapist. If you are scared what lengths do you go to, to protect yourself.

When i walk down alone at night i am not afraid of muggers or murderers walking the other way, it just seems odd and a little paranoid
I do not think it is right just to assume every man is a rapist

and of course here its "why dont women just take more responsibility???"

[Deleted]

So, purely hypothetically - if a friend of mine, who has been a friend since when I was 7 would rape me - I made a stupid choice?

Umm no? Unless the friend threatened to do so and you still hanged out with him/her or things like that.

[Zogarth]

Feminism in any form is stupid in my opinion. From what i have seen of feminist, they do not fight for equality, but superiorety. They only fight for more rights. If feminists wan't equality they should also say stuff like: "I also think it should be mandatory for women to be in the army" and "There is being put more money into researching cancer for women than for men, it should be equal".

[smelltheglove]

the first post tells you the rest of it, pretty much.

and of course here its "why dont women just take more responsibility???"

i dont think the overreaction of a few people is a valid barometer of the entirety of society. i cross the street if i dont like the look of some one as well (if there arent plenty of people around). the part about assuming all men are rapists is kind of fucked up though, imo. it's no better than men assuming all women are gold diggers.

as far as "why dont women take more responsibility" - it depends on the argument imo. if applied to rape it is almost universally shitty. if applied to acting like a person and being held accountable for one's actions it is very valid

[Deleted]

Umm no?

What's the difference between that and other rapes?

[Deleted]

you are still saying that a woman who is raped was "putting herself out there", in the same sense as someone "leaving money out if their back pocket."

that is a pretty horrible comparison.

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that hanging out places where you have a significant risk of getting raped, regardless if you get raped or not, is stupid and makes you pretty stupid as well.

What's the difference there from being raped by anyone else then?

I don't think you have the faintest of clue what the reasonable people in this thread are saying.

The bottom line is: Is there a significant chance of getting raped by doing X?
If you do X, regardless if you get raped or not: You're fucking stupid.

[Deleted]

I don't think you have the faintest of clue what the reasonable people in this thread are saying.

I'm simply trying to see what people deem as "reasonable precautions" where one will not get blamed for their choices. Rapes do not only happen out on the street nor only by strangers. You said one should get blamed for their choices - I presented a scenario where you said one should not be blamed for it. Why should one be blamed for ones choice in other circumstances but not that?

[starlord]

i dont think the overreaction of a few people is a valid barometer of the entirety of society. i cross the street if i dont like the look of some one as well (if there arent plenty of people around). the part about assuming all men are rapists is kind of fucked up though, imo. it's no better than men assuming all women are gold diggers.

as far as "why dont women take more responsibility" - it depends on the argument imo. if applied to rape it is almost universally shitty. if applied to acting like a person and being held accountable for one's actions it is very valid

well the discussion is about rape. and the fact is, women ARE taught to be afraid of men to avoid it. and then blamed when they let their guard slip. we see this on all levels of society.

[Zogarth]

I don't think you have the faintest of clue what the reasonable people in this thread are saying.

The bottom line is: Is there a significant chance of getting raped by doing X?
If you do X, regardless if you get raped or not: You're fucking stupid.

So if you leave your house, or have contact with other human being you are fucking stupid? That is new to me. And yes, you have a significantly higher chance to get raped if you speak with other humans.

well the discussion is about rape. and the fact is, women ARE taught to be afraid of men to avoid it. and then blamed when they let their guard slip. we see this on all levels of society.

Okay i am sad that you think this, and whatever society you live in... get the hell out of it, because it sucks. The so called "society" where i leave is teaching us that THE CRIMINAL and not THE VICTIM is the one at fault when a crime is commited. Only ignorant and egocentric people will blame the victim. Same as calling someone a retard if they get run over by a car because they know that cars drive on that road.

[Kasierith]

The bottom line is: Is there a significant chance of getting raped by doing X?
If you do X, regardless if you get raped or not: You're fucking stupid.

There's a fine line between pointing out avoidable risk factors and victim blaming. It can be either one of the two depending on a given situation and one's subjective interpretation of the event.

[whathump]

There's a fine line between pointing out avoidable risk factors and victim blaming. It can be either one of the two depending on a given situation and one's subjective interpretation of the event.

This is pretty much it. From reading this thread it seems like most people have difficulty understanding the nuances between the two.

[Slybak]

Anyone who wonders why most rapes go unreported simply need to peruse a forum discussion about rape on the internet, and the answer should become obvious.

[starlord]

This is pretty much it. From reading this thread it seems like most people have difficulty understanding the nuances between the two.

the thing is there arent really any "risk factors" people talk about that dont amount to "shouldnt have been/dressed like a slut".
very few people will willingly walk around in dangerous areas alone in any case- often its a matter of extenuating circumstances.
and most people are attacked by those known to them.

[detectivekr]

If I park my car in a designated parking spot (say in a parking lot or on the side of the road), completely out of the way of traffic, would I be at fault if someone else hit my car?

According to at least some insurance companies, I am partially at fault for just being there, even if it was 100% of the actions of the other driver resulting in the traffic accident. I know this because my insurance company used this excuse after my car was totaled when someone rammed my parked car in a parking lot. Obviously I wasn't happy with my insurance company after that.

In some sense, people calling the victim of rape stupid is similar to this story. Was I stupid for parking in a designated parking spot? Is a woman stupid for wearing her favorite dress? Maybe. Maybe I should only park my car at home and hope no one rams their car through my garage, and maybe women should only dress in nun-outfits and hope no one has a nun fetish. Or maybe it's better to just sympathize with the victim and help them, instead of focusing on everything he or she could have done differently. Everyone's hindsight is 20/20, but not everyone's heart is so caring for others, it seems.

In a 100% safe world, we would be able to wear whatever clothing we wanted, park our cars in designated areas anytime, drink as much alcohol as we wanted to reasonable medical limits, and so on. But we don't live in an ideal society, and so every action we take carries at least some level of risk to it. With that in mind, I personally do not feel it is oppression of any specific group when risky behavior results in adverse events. Yes, what constitutes as risky behavior is different for different groups (a woman is running a risk walking alone at night, a white male is running a risk walking alone in gang neighborhood, etc), but they are all consequences of some people acting maliciously, immorally, or irresponsibly against others.

Yes, it is unfair that these risky behaviors are different for different groups, but I'm not sure it's accurate to call it oppression. In my mind, that implies a conscious decision to keep the status quo, to actively decide that "yes, it should be this way." That somewhere, the leaders of society decided that it is a good thing that women are unsafe alone at night, or men are unsafe in gang territory, or whatever. Maybe some wretched individuals are this way, but society as a whole does not condone these things. Rape is illegal, murder is illegal. Some people are unsympathetic to the victim, call the victim stupid, but the act of rape and murder are still illegal. The institution (society) is still against these actions. I do not feel it is oppression for society to have unsympathetic people. Maybe these people are unfeeling monsters, but they are not oppressors if they are still against the actual act. And if you want to call them oppressors, then anyone critical of risky behavior is an oppressor, and that's a rather wide net to cast as an argument.