Modern Feminism - What's the deal?

[Spectral]

Truly an important ideology dedicated to combating the most important threats faced by women today: thing they don't like being said on the internet. [edit] While hypocritically saying the exact same things that they don't like being said about them about the people they don't like.

Probably closer to the truth than most characterizations of the movement today.

You're being disingenuous here; people express things on the internet that they think are true. Both quotes are examples of men that aren't real keen on the idea that women have bodily autonomy, or that consent is a relevant part of sex. Men like that have held and continue to hold political influence, particularly (but not exclusively) in the Republican Party. When misogyny stops being a thing, feminism can stop being a thing.

[Radux]

You're being disingenuous here; people express things on the internet that they think are true. Both quotes are examples of men that aren't real keen on the idea that women have bodily autonomy, or that consent is a relevant part of sex. Men like that have held and continue to hold political influence, particularly (but not exclusively) in the Republican Party. When misogyny stops being a thing, feminism can stop being a thing.

Context can still matter for both of those. I'll agree that some points from MRA can be overblown, but the things in your signature, in the correct context, are still relevant points (note: the core concepts, not the way they were expressed in any particular post here).

As far as misogyny goes, I'll agree that it's bad. But it will always exist. In the same way that misandry will likely always exist. The best thing we can do is just to try to minimize them as best we can.

[Spectral]

Context can still matter for both of those. I'll agree that some points from MRA can be overblown, but the things in your signature, in the correct context, are still relevant points (note: the core concepts, not the way they were expressed in any particular post here).

I can't see any possible context for which the idea that bodily autonomy is the "most stupid concept ever conceived of" would matter. It's a plainly evil sentiment.

As far as misogyny goes, I'll agree that it's bad. But it will always exist. In the same way that misandry will likely always exist. The best thing we can do is just to try to minimize them as best we can.

Of course, I didn't mean to suggest that it going away was going to happen; the whole point was that the prevalence and continued presence of misogyny necessitates pushback indefinitely.

[Radux]

I can't see any possible context for which the idea that bodily autonomy is the "most stupid concept ever conceived of" would matter. It's a plainly evil sentiment.

Right, and I never said that the quote was accurate (see what was in the parenthesis). I'm all for women being in control of their body and whatnot. However, I feel it becomes a slightly altered subject worth discussion when it comes to which parent wants to keep a child and which doesn't (in times of conception).

I've already made the points about it earlier in the thread, so I'd prefer not to repeat myself.

[Deleted]

Context can still matter for both of those. I'll agree that some points from MRA can be overblown, but the things in your signature, in the correct context, are still relevant points (note: the core concepts, not the way they were expressed in any particular post here).

How does context matter in regards to consent? You either want to or you don't. If you don't and the other goes through anyways then it's rape.

[Spectral]

Right, and I never said that the quote was accurate (see what was in the parenthesis). I'm all for women being in control of their body and whatnot. However, I feel it becomes a slightly altered subject worth discussion when it comes to which parent wants to keep a child and which doesn't (in times of conception).

I've already made the points about it earlier in the thread, so I'd prefer not to repeat myself.

That's fine. I'm really not sure what it even has to do with what I said though, to be honest. What I'm saying is simply that feminism remains essential because of vile, violent misogyny. I think the quotes in my signature are good examples of that, since they both come very close to saying that rape is fine.

[Deleted]

What I'm saying is simply that feminism remains essential because of vile, violent misogyny.

Which doesn't exist in any meaningful amounts anymore in most of the developed world. Atleast not any more than misandry. People spouting shit on the internet is pretty much irrelevant.

[Spectral]

Which doesn't exist in any meaningful amounts anymore in most of the developed world. People spouting shit on the internet is pretty much irrelevant.

I refer you to Messrs. Akin and Mourdock.

[Radux]

How does context matter in regards to consent? You either want to or you don't. If you don't and the other goes through anyways then it's rape.

It matters in that, people change their minds (and then it becomes rape), or there are false accusations saying it was rape when it was just regret the day after or something.

I'm not saying it's common, or that I want to try to overshadow the disgust I have for rape, but it still happens. And it's a problem.

The fact that people can be sent to jail, pretty much at the say-so of another, is shit. And technically, yes, this matters for 'consent' in that "i said no, he did it anyway, even though I'm completely making this story up". You may call it stretching it, but unfortunately this was something I saw far too frequently living in at a university that a heavily greek organized living situation.

That's fine. I'm really not sure what it even has to do with what I said though, to be honest. What I'm saying is simply that feminism remains essential because of vile, violent misogyny. I think the quotes in my signature are good examples of that, since they both come very close to saying that rape is fine.

I merely mentioned it because, at that point of discussion, it can start to infringe on the right for a woman to do what she pleases with her body.

[Spectral]

The fact that people can be sent to jail, pretty much at the say-so of another, is shit. And technically, yes, this matters for 'consent' in that "i said no, he did it anyway, even though I'm completely making this story up". You may call it stretching it, but unfortunately this was something I saw far too frequently living in at a university that a heavily greek organized living situation.

I think you'd have a hell of a time providing evidence that there's much in the way of people being jailed with no evidence other than someone's word.

[Deleted]

It matters in that, people change their minds (and then it becomes rape), or there are false accusations saying it was rape when it was just regret the day after or something.

I don't count regret as rape though. One should be allowed to change ones mind whenever you want to during the act, goes for both men and women but the woman can't exactly stop the man from penetrating her if he doesn't stop - if the man doesn't want to he can just pull out unless the woman is forcing him into it. Those who falsely accuses others of rape I have no sympathy for either, I believe they should be jailed for doing so.

[Deleted]

I refer you to Messrs. Akin and Mourdock.

What Mourdock said wasn't even that bad. He obviously believes that every life is a gift, including conception from rape. And according to pro-lifer logic, the fetus is a person, and killing the fetus is only justified to save another life (i.e. mothers health is in danger).

I don't agree with it obviously, but he's just being a logically consistant pro-lifer. I wouldn't vote for him, but I don't think he's an evil and vile misogynist.

Akin, though, I have no idea what he was thinking. And even so, it's not like feminists were needed to show that Akin was wrong.

[Spectral]

What Mourdock said wasn't even that bad. He obviously believes that everything happens because god intended it so, including conception from rape. And according to pro-lifer logic, the fetus is a person, and killing the fetus is only justified to save another life (i.e. mothers health is in danger).

I don't agree with it obviously, but he's just being a logically consistant pro-lifer. Not a misogynist.

Believing that an embryo trumps the rights of a raped woman is misogyny. That's the point - this vile, dehumanizing shit creeps into political discussions all the time, and it's often met with the assertion that it's not even misogynistic at all. Saying, "hey, that's his religion" doesn't mean it's not misogyny, that's just the reason why he has those misogynist ideas.

Akin, though, I have no idea what he was thinking. And even so, it's not like feminists were needed to show that Akin was wrong.

You don't have any idea what he was thinking? I think it's actually pretty clear from his comments what he was thinking.

[starlord]

What Mourdock said wasn't even that bad. He obviously believes that everything happens because god intended it so, including conception from rape. And according to pro-lifer logic, the fetus is a person, and killing the fetus is only justified to save another life (i.e. mothers health is in danger).

I don't agree with it obviously, but he's just being a logically consistant pro-lifer. Not a misogynist.

Akin, though, I have no idea what he was thinking. And even so, it's not like feminists were needed to show that Akin was wrong.

the whole "pro life" movement is based on the idea that womens bodily autonomy is irrelevant.

[Wells]

Of course. Wells was generalizing people from the South of USA and you said that they were as bad as muslims.

No I wasn't.

[Radux]

I think you'd have a hell of a time providing evidence that there's much in the way of people being jailed with no evidence other than someone's word.

False accusations happen all the time. True, in many occasions is it just regret. However, there are still situations of "he raped me" when there was essentially 0 bodily contact.

Believe me, people are put into cuffs, then there is an investigation of the events that supposedly unfolded. (at least in a university setting)

[Spectral]

False accusations happen all the time. True, in many occasions is it just regret. However, there are still situations of "he raped me" when there was essentially 0 bodily contact.

Believe me, people are put into cuffs, then there is an investigation of the events that supposedly unfolded. (at least in a university setting)

That doesn't contradict what I said. When someone's accused of a crime, investigating seems like a pretty decent idea. There's no evidence that false rape accusations are more common than false accusations of other crimes. There is, however, ample evidence that rape is wildly underreported because of women's fear of being told they just regretted consensual sex.

[starlord]

False accusations happen all the time. True, in many occasions is it just regret. However, there are still situations of "he raped me" when there was essentially 0 bodily contact.

Believe me, people are put into cuffs, then there is an investigation of the events that supposedly unfolded. (at least in a university setting)

women are also intimidated into having sex all the time.. someone tried to do it to me but i wasnt quite the mouse he thought.

[Deleted]

Believing that an embryo trumps the rights of a raped woman is misogyny. That's the point - this vile, dehumanizing shit creeps into political discussions all the time, and it's often met with the assertion that it's not even misogynistic at all. Saying, "hey, that's his religion" doesn't mean it's not misogyny, that's just the reason why he has those misogynist ideas.

So everyone who is pro-life is a misogynist? Because whether the woman was raped or not should really play no role. Either the fetus is a person, and its right to life supercede than right to choose of the mother - or the fetus is not a person and abortion is allowed in any circumstances. This is not necessarily a religious position either.

Mourdocks argument is much more logical than that of the average pro-lifer actually. Not very politically convenient though.

You don't have any idea what he was thinking? I think it's actually pretty clear from his comments what he was thinking.

I'm just guessing, but I think he was trying to find a way to avoid answering the question about rape and abortion. And he came up with the most retarded smokescreen ever.

[Radux]

That doesn't contradict what I said. When someone's accused of a crime, investigating seems like a pretty decent idea. There's no evidence that false rape accusations are more common than false accusations of other crimes. There is, however, ample evidence that rape is wildly underreported because of women's fear of being told they just regretted consensual sex.

Yes, an investigation is is a good idea. That doesn't change the fact that someone is still arrested until they complete said investigation.

women are also intimidated into having sex all the time.. someone tried to do it to me but i wasnt quite the mouse he thought.

One could call that rape, absolutely. However, I'm not referring to that at all in my post. I was referring to pure accusation that was preceded by nothing.