Holy mother 10man nerf

[Osmeric]

If you've farmed T14N you will be somewhere in the 490s in ilevel, presuming you did no heroic fights. This is where the second and third bosses should be tuned... from 495 to 500.

My most geared character, my warlock, has an ilvl of 502 right now. He has done no normal or heroic raids in this expansion (or in Cataclysm, for that matter). All his current gear is VP, LFR, or world boss (Sha and Galleon). He has some 5.1 VP gear that was fully upgraded before 5.2. He hasn't even done the third wing of ToT LFR yet.

Not sure what that implies, but getting up to that ilvl is not really that hard, if you are dilligent about your VP.

[cabyio]

In TBC there was no 10 man raiding.
In TBC there was no LFR.
In TBC there were no heroic modes.

In TBC, if you wanted to raid, you didn't have any choice but to do what your guild did. Individuals could have left for more progressed guilds (something that happened a LOT) but guilds raided what they could or stopped raiding at all. There weren't other options.

In MoP, there are other option. My guild started raiding again 3 weeks before 5.2. We finished off MSV and were 1/6 HoF when MoP dropped. Since then, every week, we've killed Jinrokh and have progressively cleared T14. We've now cleared T14 aside from Sha. That's not the issue. The issue is the contention by some above that we should have to farm T14 for another month or two *in order to kill the second frigging boss in ToT.*

If you've farmed T14N you will be somewhere in the 490s in ilevel, presuming you did no heroic fights. This is where the second and third bosses should be tuned... from 495 to 500. The issue is simply that Horridon especially was tuned for 502 or so which meant that a raid noticeably under that ilevel (say, a raid that had only cleared T14N) had less room for errors. This nerf feels like it brings him down to a tuning of somewhere in the 490s which matches the gearing you will have coming out of T14N and is where it should have been all along.

By the way, I love the people above who claim they're in a casual guild when they've killed heroics and are sporting ilevels way above 510. Earth to those folks... heroic raiding isn't casual. It might be in terms of time taken, but it's not in terms of focus. Of course you found the first bosses easier if you were farming T14N and H. You're entering it with better than average gear and you're by definition better raiders.

Our guild raids between 6-8 hours a week and had a raid average ilvl of 497 (between 495-500 just like you said) and we downed Horridon in the first week. Was it painful? Yes. Did we wipe alot? Yes. But we figured out what things we could do better and then we killed him. Its really wasn't as impossible as people seem to think.

EDIT: also if you had your valor ready everyone in your raid should have gotten a 522 neck right off the bat. That can jump your ilvl a fair amount + any gear you got off the first boss.

[clevin]

My most geared character, my warlock, has an ilvl of 501 right now. He has done no normal or heroic raids in this expansion (or in Cataclysm, for that matter). All his current gear is VP, LFR, or world boss (Sha and Galleon). He has some 5.1 VP gear that was fully upgraded before 5.2. He hasn't even done the third wing of ToT LFR yet.

Not sure what that implies, but getting up to that ilvl is not really that hard, if you are dilligent about your VP.

Sigh. Is there a reading comprehension thing in this thread?

"If you've farmed T14N you will be somewhere in the 490s in ilevel"

At the risk of another infraction, I'll say this in small words:

T14 gear is 489 and 496. T14 Sha of Anger gear is 496. T14 LFR gear is 476/483. You cannot get 500+ with just that gear, which is all you'll have had access to on the first day of T15. If you enter T15 with T14N gear, your ilevel will be in the 490s. If you were in the high 490s and bought the VP neck which is a 522 piece you might have popped up to 500. Maybe. But that assumes you are in almost all 496 gear (i.e. you've replaced your MSV gear or upgraded it with VP).

Yes, by now you can have a couple of 522 VP pieces and depending on drops from LFR, some 502 pieces from there. That's NOT MY POINT.

My point is that the first bosses of a tier should be designed around the gear that people will have when the new tier is first available. With ToT, that would be somewhere in the 490s for virtually all raiders aside from people who farmed heroic T14 bosses yet, apparently, Horridon and Council were tuned a bit closer to 502 and not, say, 496. Is that a huge difference? No. But it's a noticeable one and removes some of the margin of safety for missing interrupts or dispells on Horridon, etc.

Clear?

[celinamuna]

Sigh. Is there a reading comprehension thing in this thread?

"If you've farmed T14N you will be somewhere in the 490s in ilevel"

At the risk of another infraction, I'll say this in small words:

T14 gear is 489 and 496. T14 Sha of Anger gear is 496. T14 LFR gear is 476/483. You cannot get 500+ with just that gear, which is all you'll have had access to on the first day of T15. If you enter T15 with T14N gear, your ilevel will be in the 490s. If you were in the high 490s and bought the VP neck which is a 522 piece you might have popped up to 500. Maybe. But that assumes you are in almost all 496 gear (i.e. you've replaced your MSV gear or upgraded it with VP).

Yes, by now you can have a couple of 522 VP pieces and depending on drops from LFR, some 502 pieces from there. That's NOT MY POINT.

My point is that the first bosses of a tier should be designed around the gear that people will have when the new tier is first available. With ToT, that would be somewhere in the 490s for virtually all raiders aside from people who farmed heroic T14 bosses yet, apparently, Horridon and Council were tuned a bit closer to 502 and not, say, 496. Is that a huge difference? No. But it's a noticeable one and removes some of the margin of safety for missing interrupts or dispells on Horridon, etc.

Clear?

Item upgrade of 496 pushes it to 504. (Better than the base H MSV || ToT lfr)

[Celarent]

With all this talk of methods for gearing to enter the current tier, you can't help but think back to Blizzard offering concern over multiple weekly content clears as a reason for shared lockouts between 10- and 25-man.

This seems another chapter in Blizzard's issues with making content for people who don't exist. How many players wanted LFR's zero-challenge, anonymous experience that's made interesting only by griefers? Not a lot. How many hard-mode players would be affected by slightly easier normal encounters? Not a lot.

[cabyio]

Sigh. Is there a reading comprehension thing in this thread?

"If you've farmed T14N you will be somewhere in the 490s in ilevel"

At the risk of another infraction, I'll say this in small words:

T14 gear is 489 and 496. T14 Sha of Anger gear is 496. T14 LFR gear is 476/483. You cannot get 500+ with just that gear, which is all you'll have had access to on the first day of T15. If you enter T15 with T14N gear, your ilevel will be in the 490s. If you were in the high 490s and bought the VP neck which is a 522 piece you might have popped up to 500. Maybe. But that assumes you are in almost all 496 gear (i.e. you've replaced your MSV gear or upgraded it with VP).

Yes, by now you can have a couple of 522 VP pieces and depending on drops from LFR, some 502 pieces from there. That's NOT MY POINT.

My point is that the first bosses of a tier should be designed around the gear that people will have when the new tier is first available. With ToT, that would be somewhere in the 490s for virtually all raiders aside from people who farmed heroic T14 bosses yet, apparently, Horridon and Council were tuned a bit closer to 502 and not, say, 496. Is that a huge difference? No. But it's a noticeable one and removes some of the margin of safety for missing interrupts or dispells on Horridon, etc.

Clear?

Yes. This is always the case. The less gear you have the better you have to nail the mechanics. The fact remains that Horridon was doable in 495-500 ilvl gear in the first week.

[NeverStop]

So why are we still complaining about Horridon when most groups encountering him will have at least three 522 VP pieces and many 502 pieces from T15 LFR?

[clevin]

Item upgrade of 496 pushes it to 504. (Better than the base H MSV || ToT lfr)

Of course. But most people probably didn't win a full set of 496, buy VP 496 gear for the slots where they didn't get drops AND upgrade many of those 496 pieces to504.

Come on people, you're now arguing just to argue. My central point is pretty apparent and generally correct - if someone was lucky enough to get all 496 gear (not a mix of 489 and 496) they could upgrade a few pieces and push 500. More likely, people entered in a mix of 489 and 496 gear perhaps with 2 or 3 upgraded pieces. Most people who raided T14 normals entered T15 geared in the 490s, not the 500s. Is this really so hard for some of you to accept? If you accept that, then how do you argue that the second and third bosses being tuned for gear in the low 500s and isn't slightly overtuned?

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 03:38 PM ----------

So why are we still complaining about Horridon when most groups encountering him will have at least three 522 VP pieces and many 502 pieces from T15 LFR?

/headdesk. I give up. Too many of you cannot look past your own noses.

There are people who have crap luck in LFR and have no 502s or just a piece or two. I've had fairly decent luck, gotten 4 pieces from LFR. Most people do not have "many" drops from there. Like many, I don't cap VP every week so I'll just be getting my 3rd VP piece this week (yes, there are those of us who don't cap VP every week!!). Because I never saw replacements for the LFR 483 shoulders and belt, my hunter is just now hitting 502.

[cabyio]

Of course. But most people probably didn't win a full set of 496, buy VP 496 gear for the slots where they didn't get drops AND upgrade many of those 496 pieces to504.

Come on people, you're now arguing just to argue. My central point is pretty apparent and generally correct - if someone was lucky enough to get all 496 gear (not a mix of 489 and 496) they could upgrade a few pieces and push 500. More likely, people entered in a mix of 489 and 496 gear perhaps with 2 or 3 upgraded pieces. Most people who raided T14 normals entered T15 geared in the 490s, not the 500s. Is this really so hard for some of you to accept? If you accept that, then how do you argue that the second and third bosses being tuned for gear in the low 500s and isn't slightly overtuned?

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 03:38 PM ----------



/headdesk. I give up. Too many of you cannot look past your own noses.

There are people who have crap luck in LFR and have no 502s or just a piece or two. I've had fairly decent luck, gotten 4 pieces plus 522 gloves and legs. Like many, I don't cap VP every week so I'll just be getting my 3rd VP piece this week (yes, there are those of us who don't cap VP every week!!). Because I never saw replacements for the LFR 483 shoulders and belt, my hunter is just now hitting 502.

I have gotten 5 pieces of the new valor gear by now, so even if you haven't gotten anything in LFR, if you were at least above 490 when the tier started 5 pieces of 522 gear goes a long damn way.

[Deleted]

Yes. This is always the case. The less gear you have the better you have to nail the mechanics. The fact remains that Horridon was doable in 495-500 ilvl gear in the first week.

And heroic MSV was doable in mostly HC blues the first week.

If you were in paragon etc. For everyone else, forget about it.

Doable only means possible, it doesn't extend to probable.

[NeverStop]

There are people who have crap luck in LFR and have no 502s or just a piece or two. I've had fairly decent luck, gotten 4 pieces from LFR. Most people do not have "many" drops from there. Like many, I don't cap VP every week so I'll just be getting my 3rd VP piece this week (yes, there are those of us who don't cap VP every week!!). Because I never saw replacements for the LFR 483 shoulders and belt, my hunter is just now hitting 502.

If the original unnerfed Horridon was tuned for 502 ilvl, how can you say that the twice-nerfed Horridon still requires 502 ilvl? The adds' health were literally reduced by 15% twice, for a total of 27% reduction.

The current nerfed Horridon as of April 11 does not require 502 ilvl anymore.

[Candiman]

If the original unnerfed Horridon was tuned for 502 ilvl, how can you say that the twice-nerfed Horridon still requires 502 ilvl? The adds' health were literally reduced by 15% twice, for a total of 27% reduction.

The current nerfed Horridon as of April 11 does not require 502 ilvl anymore.

I do believe what people are trying to say is the original Horridon should not have required 502 iLevel and the tuning now is closer to where it should have been 5 weeks ago.

[Deleted]

Sigh. Is there a reading comprehension thing in this thread?

"If you've farmed T14N you will be somewhere in the 490s in ilevel"

At the risk of another infraction, I'll say this in small words:

T14 gear is 489 and 496. T14 Sha of Anger gear is 496. T14 LFR gear is 476/483. You cannot get 500+ with just that gear, which is all you'll have had access to on the first day of T15. If you enter T15 with T14N gear, your ilevel will be in the 490s. If you were in the high 490s and bought the VP neck which is a 522 piece you might have popped up to 500. Maybe. But that assumes you are in almost all 496 gear (i.e. you've replaced your MSV gear or upgraded it with VP).

Yes, by now you can have a couple of 522 VP pieces and depending on drops from LFR, some 502 pieces from there. That's NOT MY POINT.

My point is that the first bosses of a tier should be designed around the gear that people will have when the new tier is first available. With ToT, that would be somewhere in the 490s for virtually all raiders aside from people who farmed heroic T14 bosses yet, apparently, Horridon and Council were tuned a bit closer to 502 and not, say, 496. Is that a huge difference? No. But it's a noticeable one and removes some of the margin of safety for missing interrupts or dispells on Horridon, etc.

Clear?

I'm sorry but, item upgrade + VP trinket + VP Neck you could easily achieve around 496 ilvl, even if you did 0 heroics in T14. When we were on horridon I had 501 ilvl (raid was 497), and we didnt ever killed an heroic boss, we killed sha the last week before 5.2

This is with a very casual ~5 hours a week raiding guild.

[clevin]

I have gotten 5 pieces of the new valor gear by now, so even if you haven't gotten anything in LFR, if you were at least above 490 when the tier started 5 pieces of 522 gear goes a long damn way.

Sigh. Read again what I wrote above. Don't just skim it looking for something to score points on. Read.what.i.wrote.

Here's a clue. I'm not talking just about what people now could have.

PS: You could only have 5 VP pieces if you entered 5.2 capped with 3k VP and capped each week 5.2 has been out. Here's a free clue... the people who did that tend to be the more serious hardcore raiders. Who aren't the core audience for normals.

God, people, really, look beyond yourselves. Your experience really isn't the center of the universe.

[zloitima]

There are really 4 situations here:

1.You downed the nerfed bosses and you like the nerfs. You're mature, serious raider, you realise it makes the farm easier.

2.You downed these bosses and you don't like the nerfs. You're a special snowflake and don't want less skilled/undergeared people to down it too.(Not realising that no one really cares about your progression except you). Grow up.

3.You haven't down them and you like the changes as it will help you finally progress. Good for you.

4.You haven't down them and you don't like it. You're a minority of the game, advice you to change the guild.

[PhillieB]

I'm really still only hearing complaining...Lets look att the 496+ gearing options outside of ToT Normal: VP, HoF & Terrace, Galleon, 2p tier drops from Sha, Nalak, Oondasta, Rep gear from 5.1 and 5.2 factions and ToT LFR, add to that a shitload of coins eveyweek for doing the treasure trove. How is that not enough to gear up to 496+ average to down Horridon?

[Deleted]

Yeah Group Therapy is totally a normal 2-day/week raiding guild... please >.>

GT actually is, some members have more time, so they do alt raids, but that'saboootit

[Crashdummy]

In TBC, my former casual 2 night a week guild was still on SSC by the time Sunwell came out. We eventually killed Vashj and we were midway through Black Temple before WoTLK came out. None of us got mad at Blizzard because TBC raids were "overtuned" and therefore we didn't get to "see the content." We just accepted that we weren't good enough to complete the raids and we improved significantly during Ulduar, ToC, and ICC.

Back then, you didn't expect to clear every raid tier while it was current. I don't see why people believe they're entitled to complete the current tier on normal mode now. If you feel you're being denied storyline or lore, LFR is there for everyone to "see the content."

The game has evolved from the time where Blizzard themselves accepted that their raiding model was not a good one.

[PhillieB]

The game has evolved from the time where Blizzard themselves accepted that their raiding model was not a good one.

This is where alot of opinions differ, I think it has devolved and MoP has so far been a step in the right direction.

[cabyio]

Sigh. Read again what I wrote above. Don't just skim it looking for something to score points on. Read.what.i.wrote.

Here's a clue. I'm not talking just about what people now could have.

PS: You could only have 5 VP pieces if you entered 5.2 capped with 3k VP and capped each week 5.2 has been out. Here's a free clue... the people who did that tend to be the more serious hardcore raiders. Who aren't the core audience for normals.

God, people, really, look beyond yourselves. Your experience really isn't the center of the universe.

Sure. I get your point. Not what it is now but what it was when it was released. But still if you were low 490s when the patch hit and you bought the neck piece right away (lets be fair, 1250 vp is not that hard to have at patch time) then that still should have brought you up past 495. If 1 or 2 ilvls is stopping you then you just need to clean up your execution a bit. That is how you progress (or brute force it with gear).

EDIT: Also VP capping each week is not very time intensive. God forbid you have to put in a tiny bit of effort to excel at something.