Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Chrispotter]

Being bad, not OK. DKs are bad at mobility. Warriors are bad at range capability. Paladins aren't at neither.

Its like comparing apples and shoelaces. Dks in turn have Death Grip/MassGrip to bring adds to them, Warriors have charge/heroic leap to quicker get into close range.

[Nairobi]

And while i expect no answer to that, what exactly is the paladins weak point? I would love to hear it.

Magic.

We are perhaps the least equipped class to handle magic damage outside of periodic hits. Talking Lei Shi style. We CAN give up the DivProt glyph 20% all dmg redux for 40% redux on magic only, but our mastery and AM do nothing to help/deal with magic outside of trying to stack up BOG for WOGs every 15-20 seconds.
We do have Devo aura, but that is a raid CD for 6 sec on a 3min CD.

Not that other tanks are far better, but:
Monk - Guard can be used for anti-magic via glyph. Dampen harm/Diffuse are excellent anti-magic. Zen Med can be used against casting (i.e. Lei Shi style while adds are out).
War - SBarr absorbs magic. Demo shout/banner (yes I realize banners are raid CD's as well, but shout is shorter CD IIRC).
Druid - Passive extra dmg redux on magic, no ramp-up on their AM-heal ability to be "useful" unlike WOG
DK - AMS, AMZ, and using AMS glyph w/ bone shield to extend duration of 20% redux. DS scales well with dmg taken to soften the edge on magic intake as well.

Again, not saying any tank handles pure magic well, but I'd put prot pal at the bottom. If you're looking for an achilles' heel for the spec, it'd be magic.

[Deleted]

Everyone is garbage at kiting compared to monks (hello semi-spammable ranged no dmg/high threat aoe, did I mention that it slows too?) but I don't think it would be fair to hold that against them considering it's like half a boss per tier where that is useful.

And talking about Wild Charge Intervene for druids, you think that's something that gets used often? You know it puts you in caster form and you lose all rage, yeah that seems like something you wanna use all the time.

Pre lvl15 talents I would agree that Paladins had a weakness when it came to mobility, nowadays not so much.

[Rumblecrush]

Posts from the "Don't nerf me bro!" camp are getting more & more disingenuous and deflective

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Posts from the "Don't nerf me bro!" camp are getting more & more disingenuous and deflective

More like typical of WoW players "Don't make me better, make him worse!"

Make some realistic and cohesive arguments for how your warrior/druid/DK/monk could be brought up to the level of the Paladin. Not just "WAAAAAA WAAAAAA Paladins takin mah jerbs!" Because that is exactly what the paladin haters sound like.

[Rumblecrush]

More like typical of WoW players "Don't make me better, make him worse!"

Your attempt to rehash a defeated argument has been noted noted. Posts in this very thread have explained why buffing multiple over correcting 1 is a bad idea, and how to tone down paladins but you're treading the troll waters and seem more interested in making noise than reading.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Your attempt to rehash a defeated argument has been noted noted. Posts in this very thread have explained why buffing multiple over correcting 1 is a bad idea, and how to tone down paladins but you're treading the troll waters and seem more interested in making noise than reading.

And many people have shown how it is not Paladin tanks specifically that are the issue, and that simply having ANY Paladin in the raid will negate the issues raised.

[Nairobi]

Your attempt to rehash a defeated argument has been noted noted. Posts in this very thread have explained why buffing multiple over correcting 1 is a bad idea, and how to tone down paladins but you're treading the troll waters and seem more interested in making noise than reading.

But "your camp" seems to have forgotten that blue posts have said that "we like how the paladin model works; we want that to be the paradigm of tanking moving forward and hope to adjust secondary stat scaling for other classes commensurately".

Look, I get it. You're a warrior or bear or whatever and feel bad/sad/mad that an equal geared and skilled prot paladin is more desired and often more effective than your class. That sucks. But instead of raging at something that clearly 1) is intended by the devs and 2) will not be changing, maybe you should look at your class and try to think of/suggest ways to improve or adapt it to the new design paradigm.

Prot is largely successful for the same reason it is fun. It is viscerally exciting and tangible to see your character progress when getting new items. It is even more rewarding to see your input to group play as a useful and core part of the group. I'm sure someone will stand up and say "HAY MAN I LIKE BEING A MEAT SHIELD OK?!", but I think most can agree that the vanilla/BC and even LK/cata styles of "stack stam, and avoidance, then sit in front of the boss and AFK" was not at all engaging to the tank. AM and stat scaling have turned that on its ear, and Protpal tanking is now the most fun and rewarding part of the game for me as a heroic raider with every tank class at 90.

Previously, I REALLY enjoyed DK tanking because they were the AM-hipsters who had an involved tank style before it was cool. Personally, I find rage-tanks quite boring/linear now, largely because of the lack of scaling that they have. SoB just makes the playstle faster, smoother, and more fun as you gear. 1% more haste is ALWAYS more fun than 1% more dodge.

TL;DR - stop trying to bring someone down to your level. Instead, think of how to bring yourself up. Otherwise, you're just a whiner and part of the problem...better to be part of a solution.

[Deleted]

Magic.

We are perhaps the least equipped class to handle magic damage outside of periodic hits. Talking Lei Shi style. We CAN give up the DivProt glyph 20% all dmg redux for 40% redux on magic only, but our mastery and AM do nothing to help/deal with magic outside of trying to stack up BOG for WOGs every 15-20 seconds.
We do have Devo aura, but that is a raid CD for 6 sec on a 3min CD.

Not that other tanks are far better, but:
Monk - Guard can be used for anti-magic via glyph. Dampen harm/Diffuse are excellent anti-magic. Zen Med can be used against casting (i.e. Lei Shi style while adds are out).
War - SBarr absorbs magic. Demo shout/banner (yes I realize banners are raid CD's as well, but shout is shorter CD IIRC).
Druid - Passive extra dmg redux on magic, no ramp-up on their AM-heal ability to be "useful" unlike WOG
DK - AMS, AMZ, and using AMS glyph w/ bone shield to extend duration of 20% redux. DS scales well with dmg taken to soften the edge on magic intake as well.

Again, not saying any tank handles pure magic well, but I'd put prot pal at the bottom. If you're looking for an achilles' heel for the spec, it'd be magic.

Why do every tanks brings the point of "my mastery doesn't help against magic"? No ones mastery helps against magic. If Lei Shi comes to mind, avoidance and mastery becomes useless. Haste and crit tanks don't lose their value there. Shout is a longer CD if unbrekeable is specced, if not, it's equally on 1 min cd, but it's 20% instead of 40%. Rage income via revenge refresh becomes gutted, rage income via crit block too. DPS becomes horrid when you lose HR and enrage. Shield Barrier lose it's fuel pretty fast when there are not melee hits involved. Something that doesn't happen to neither Sacred Shield nor WoG. All tanks are far worse under heavy magic pressure, but they could do a whole tier of Lei Shis and paladins won't be regarded as the worst for the job.

[Rumblecrush]

Surely you can do better than strawmanning everyone who you don't agree with as a disgruntled tank. When your entire floundering argument hinges on a false premise, you won't be taken seriously. Also it's laughable to try and say just because Blizzard says something means it's set in stone. They backpedal and change their minds more than we change clothes.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Why do every tanks brings the point of "my mastery doesn't help against magic"? No ones mastery helps against magic. If Lei Shi comes to mind, avoidance and mastery becomes useless. Haste and crit tanks don't lose their value there. Shout is a longer CD if unbrekeable is specced, if not, it's equally on 1 min cd, but it's 20% instead of 40%. Rage income via revenge refresh becomes gutted, rage income via crit block too. DPS becomes horrid when you lose HR and enrage. Shield Barrier lose it's fuel pretty fast when there are not melee hits involved. Something that doesn't happen to neither Sacred Shield nor WoG. All tanks are far worse under heavy magic pressure, but they could do a whole tier of Lei Shis and paladins won't be regarded as the worst for the job.

That isn't a class balance issue, that would be a complete collapse of any sign of competence on the part of the encounter developers.

Surely you can do better than strawmanning everyone who you don't agree with as a disgruntled tank.

Going by past experience, that has been shown to be the case most of the time.

[Nairobi]

Why do every tanks brings the point of "my mastery doesn't help against magic"? No ones mastery helps against magic. If Lei Shi comes to mind, avoidance and mastery becomes useless. Haste and crit tanks don't lose their value there. Shout is a longer CD if unbrekeable is specced, if not, it's equally on 1 min cd, but it's 20% instead of 40%. Rage income via revenge refresh becomes gutted, rage income via crit block too. DPS becomes horrid when you lose HR and enrage. Shield Barrier lose it's fuel pretty fast when there are not melee hits involved. Something that doesn't happen to neither Sacred Shield nor WoG. All tanks are far worse under heavy magic pressure, but they could do a whole tier of Lei Shis and paladins won't be regarded as the worst for the job.

Specified mastery because we've had people come to the pala forums and complain that our mastery somehow helps against magic. I'm not lobbying that warrior or any other mastery DOES work, merely that ours does not.

And sure you don't get as much rage as a fast/DW mob hitting you, but you still get rage and still can SBarr. Which is still more magic mit from your AM than we have. As I said in the post originally, I am NOT claiming that ANY tank fares well against a boss like Lei Shi. I am merely saying that our weakest point is anti-magic.

SS and SoI healing/absorbs do continue to work, but saying that WOG is useful/reliable is not the case. If you dump a 5xBOG-WOG, it'll take you ~ 28 seconds to rebuild it. If you have HA talented and active, you can rebuild it ~10 seconds, but HA lasts 18 sec so it can only be done ~1.5x every 2 mins. Or, you could spam WOG's with no bastion stacks, for ~30k heals per cast...far from OP.

I'm interested to hear which class you assert as the worst tank vs. magic then.

[Viromand]

All tanks are almost equal on the dmg taken part there are jsut little differences where 1 class is a bit better. A druid on a 2 tank fight can take 0 dmg, yes its a bit rng but still im not talking about 10% SD uptime druids. Warriors are fine too, DKS take alot of dmg but they heal themselves.

The only thing that makes a tank better than the others is utlity. And Protpala has the best package overall, monks are great too. Its not even the raidehealing part, just because the warrior banner doenst show up on recount or logs, it is very strong.

DPS wise pala are alot weaker than rps druids.

All tanks are fine, a good DK tank will still be better than a not so good played pala. Having a pala in your raid wount help you oneshot every boss, you still raid with 9 or 24 other players. A Pala will make a few fights a bit easier, having a pala with a spriest/shaman/balancedruid will most likelylet you drop a healer here and there.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

A Pala will make a few fights a bit easier, having a pala with a spriest/shaman/balancedruid will most likelylet you drop a healer here and there.

i.e. the reason why you take hybrids to a fight.

[Deleted]

Specified mastery because we've had people come to the pala forums and complain that our mastery somehow helps against magic. I'm not lobbying that warrior or any other mastery DOES work, merely that ours does not.

And sure you don't get as much rage as a fast/DW mob hitting you, but you still get rage and still can SBarr. Which is still more magic mit from your AM than we have. As I said in the post originally, I am NOT claiming that ANY tank fares well against a boss like Lei Shi. I am merely saying that our weakest point is anti-magic.

SS and SoI healing/absorbs do continue to work, but saying that WOG is useful/reliable is not the case. If you dump a 5xBOG-WOG, it'll take you ~ 28 seconds to rebuild it. If you have HA talented and active, you can rebuild it ~10 seconds, but HA lasts 18 sec so it can only be done ~1.5x every 2 mins. Or, you could spam WOG's with no bastion stacks, for ~30k heals per cast...far from OP.

I'm interested to hear which class you assert as the worst tank vs. magic then.

Oh, you would put me on a cinch. My assertion is that all classes suffer heavily against magic damage. If you would make me choose between warriors and paladins, I would take the one which whose DPS won't drop ~20% while needing the same healing, ignoring whether RC and Demo will be more useful than Prism/hammer, HoP/HoPur and Devotion in said combat. Again, that's far from a weak spot. If you would need to do a new tier that highlights other tank strenghts, what mechanics will be in?

[Nairobi]

Surely you can do better than strawmanning everyone who you don't agree with as a disgruntled tank. When your entire floundering argument hinges on a false premise, you won't be taken seriously. Also it's laughable to try and say just because Blizzard says something means it's set in stone. They backpedal and change their minds more than we change clothes.

I assume this is directed at me, from context; at which point I'm a bit lost on any point you're trying to make. Clearly you have a serious beef with prot paladin's current state. Whether it is because you are a tank of a different class, a healer, or a DPS I do not know. However, it is statistically safe to assume that a vast majority of these threads (as they tend to come up nearly daily) are from "disgruntled tanks" as you have suggested. I'll be the first to say that I understand and commiserrate with that standpoint. Nobody likes to be subpar, whether they actually are subpar, or are just perceived as such by the community. It sucks being passed over for an OP class/spec piloted by a lesser player simply because mechanics dictate or allow it. None of the experienced, veteran prots would disagree, and thus far, none have.

So where, exactly, is my argument floundering? By quoting the developers of the game on their stated intent for class and role balance? Surely you can't be serious. I suppose that it would be more accurate to cite the wild cries of the community that does NOT develop the game instead? For someone using words like strawmanning despite the fact that your accusation didn't occur, I'd be inclined to say that you're resorting to ad hominem arguements simply because you don't like the current state of affairs. Trying hard to be civil here, but it's proving difficult when the opposition seems to simply want to shout and stomp their feet because they don't like something. Blizzard can, of course, change their mind. But since this paradigm of tanking has been going on the entire expansion, and they have continued to claim that they feel paladins are in a "good place" and "a good model", it'd be foolish to assume that they have waves of nerfs coming. Instead, it'd be wise to assume that the remaining classes will get a commensurate makeover.

In the meantime, though, feel free to keep shouting. It may help you pass the time til 5.4/6.0.

[Deleted]

But "your camp" seems to have forgotten that blue posts have said that "we like how the paladin model works; we want that to be the paradigm of tanking moving forward and hope to adjust secondary stat scaling for other classes commensurately".

Look, I get it. You're a warrior or bear or whatever and feel bad/sad/mad that an equal geared and skilled prot paladin is more desired and often more effective than your class. That sucks. But instead of raging at something that clearly 1) is intended by the devs and 2) will not be changing, maybe you should look at your class and try to think of/suggest ways to improve or adapt it to the new design paradigm.

Prot is largely successful for the same reason it is fun. It is viscerally exciting and tangible to see your character progress when getting new items. It is even more rewarding to see your input to group play as a useful and core part of the group. I'm sure someone will stand up and say "HAY MAN I LIKE BEING A MEAT SHIELD OK?!", but I think most can agree that the vanilla/BC and even LK/cata styles of "stack stam, and avoidance, then sit in front of the boss and AFK" was not at all engaging to the tank. AM and stat scaling have turned that on its ear, and Protpal tanking is now the most fun and rewarding part of the game for me as a heroic raider with every tank class at 90.

Previously, I REALLY enjoyed DK tanking because they were the AM-hipsters who had an involved tank style before it was cool. Personally, I find rage-tanks quite boring/linear now, largely because of the lack of scaling that they have. SoB just makes the playstle faster, smoother, and more fun as you gear. 1% more haste is ALWAYS more fun than 1% more dodge.

TL;DR - stop trying to bring someone down to your level. Instead, think of how to bring yourself up. Otherwise, you're just a whiner and part of the problem...better to be part of a solution.

Seems like you are more into flavour of the month then actually enjoy your class. Many people confuse fun with OP.

[Nairobi]

Oh, you would put me on a cinch. My assertion is that all classes suffer heavily against magic damage. If you would make me choose between warriors and paladins, I would take the one which whose DPS won't drop ~20% while needing the same healing, ignoring whether RC and Demo will be more useful than Prism/hammer, HoP/HoPur and Devotion in said combat. Again, that's far from a weak spot. If you would need to do a new tier that highlights other tank strenghts, what mechanics will be in?

Wasn't trying to be inflammatory, was genuinely curious. I have, and play, all tanks @90 and based on that I feel that my paladin has the least equipped toolkit to deal with Magic. Esp after the HoPur nerf. Sure, we can heal it up after, but we need to live through it first

As for your question; I will be quite surprised if there are many/any meaningful physical debuffs that can be cleared via BoP/bubble in SoO. Likely, I foresee magic stacking debuffs that prevent clearing and foster an actual tank-swap encounter. This would greatly even the playing field and simultaneously lower the effectiveness of protpal by 1) neutering high-veng levels that yield excessive DPS/HPS and 2) encouraging tank synergy and actual co-tanking.

Or, you could just get 2 prot-pals and HoSac each other! (kidding)

[Odina]

The thing is you "could" use any tank to do the one tank strat with hop but pallies do it better! It's not impossible but look here

Why would I tank Tortos when our pallie can tank and do the following HEALING and DMG?

healing
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=5340&e=5659
DMG:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=5340&e=5659

It's not that it's impossible to use another tank for the 1 tank strat it's just a pallie makes it redic easy as they pump out so much HPS and DPS at the same time and the other tanks will generally only pump out more dps due to veng but nothing close to the HPS.

Same on council :

Healing :
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=3428&e=3828
DMG:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=3428&e=3828


Comming from a prot war POV I don't want to see them nerfed but I would rather have the same oportunity as them to do something similar. One main issue for wars is if you pop S.barrier then you will absorb a decent chunk of dmg but if you pop that as your go to shield then you negate heavy repercusions glyph and loose out on 50% dmg boost to SS. As SS is our #1 dmg ability we sacraphise allot of dmg for that absorb and one way I could see so soften that blow is turn heavyrepercusions into a 5 second buff each time you cast S.bar or S.block where SS will do 50% more dmg so that the glyph is not wasted due to choosing absorb > block. Still dose not bring us in line HPS wise but just an idea instead of jumping in the NERF PALLIES camp!

[Nairobi]

Seems like you are more into flavour of the month then actually enjoy your class. Many people confuse fun with OP.

Lolwut? I've played paladin as prot/ret since BC. Flavor of the decade nearly. And aside from one week in Wrath and a hotfixed bug in Cata, neither spec was ever considered OP/FotM. Appreciate the personal attacks tho!

While OP abilities/classes/specs ARE fun for their players, they are certainly un-fun for those on the other end, especially in PVP. Multiple posts about this from Holinka saying essentially "when tanks/multi-boxers/etc are having fun in BGs, everyone else isn't". Right, agreed. And maybe many people ARE having fun with prot because it is OP. But I, and many other of the established and veteran prots in this thread and on MMO are no those people.

We find Prot fun because of the vast, sweeping changes it has undergone in 1 expansion. From "Get CTC-cap, then stack stam" style of tanking while basically AFK, to actually having a skill-cap and visceral, meaningful player involvement, prot is certainly and actually fun. Whether or not it strong/OP/broken/whatever has nothing to do with the fact that the playstyle is enjoyable. So, I'm a bit lost to your comment's meaning...Are you suggesting we nerf fun?