How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[nekobaka]

As an aside, what about having more than one raid instance but on the same tier, or perhaps like a half tier behind a la MSV? That way you don't have a huge 12 boss raid that burns people out, but two 6x bosses, or an 8 and a 4 or any combination thereof to differ things?

Personally I like having a tier split up between different raid instances. Having smaller chunks to deal with allows groups to do things in chunks and vary what bosses they hit if they hit a wall even if each raid is linear. The split also makes hitting the last boss of a raid faster and allows a group that is doing progression to clear a few bosses instead of having to make the loot sacrifice to extend the lockout in order to give the group time to progress on a boss. If a group does decide to extend a lockout then they are missing out on far less potential upgrade chances if they do such. With smaller raid zones they are overall more casual friendly with less time commitment which translates well for PuGs. By also having separate raids it allows PuGs to do one raid at one point and still have another raid to look forward to another night instead of having a one shot commitment to raiding for the week that can end up bad and leaving them sour until the next lockout.

Another thing that could be done is just splitting up the lockouts of raids like LFR is like. Perhaps even make the wings separate like the Scarlet Monastery model that the developers did say they liked yet never brought to raids. It might feel weird and players may skip whole wings though it is just like having separate raids and the theme can remain the same instead of coming up with new art work and lore for a whole separate raid zone. This allows overall more flexability and casual raid groups can more readily find a replacement if they have already cleared part of the tier as they can start another zone and still progress instead of trying to find a person willing to throw away half the tiers loot table.

[Keoren]

I definitely agree with this. Non-linear tiers give the guilds more options. Raiding in a pipe restricts the players and is not an interesting design.

To further elaborate my thoughts on the actual topic, I'll quote myself from the sister thread.

I'm also thinking that some of the initial encounters on normal are probably quite overwhelming to many groups. The two main adjustments that I would personally make are more paths of progression and a more gradual increase in difficulty in the beginning of a tier.

I don't think that encouraging groups to progress through the tiers in a chronological order is a bad idea either. It prepares the players for the current content in a way that nothing else really does. The rewards for going back simply need to be worth it.

The players also have more content to do if they have a reason to want to go through an older tier.

[Osmeric]

The players also have more content to do if they have a reason to want to go through an older tier.

I think this was Blizzard's idea, and I think it's failing catastrophically. The reaction was mostly not "we can't do T15, let's finish farming T14". The reaction instead more often was "we didn't finish T14 normal, and can't do T15 normal, so screw this, I'm just doing LFR from now on."

[Keoren]

I think this was Blizzard's idea, and I think it's failing catastrophically. The reaction was mostly not "we can't do T15, let's finish farming T14". The reaction instead more often was "we didn't finish T14 normal, and can't do T15 normal, so screw this, I'm just doing LFR from now on."

This was definitely something that the developers were trying. I think that one of the problems is that going back to or staying in T14 is not rewarding enough.

[Glorious Leader]

This was definitely something that the developers were trying. I think that one of the problems is that going back to or staying in T14 is not rewarding enough.

I think the problem is the mindset in general. Why should players be satisfied to be stuck in the old tier when the patch their all up and excited about is coming out tmmrw? Especially when the developers spend the majority of time (and money) making raids instead of other content they could do right away (like dungeons). It doesn't make any sense. It would be like paying for heart of the swarm and then being stuck on playing WoL cause you haven't beat it on brutal difficulty.

[Osmeric]

I think the problem is the mindset in general. Why should players be satisfied to be stuck in the old tier when the patch their all up and excited about is coming out tmmrw?

We've seen the devs do this before. It's like "X would be really convenient for us, the devs, THEREFORE the players will like it!" It's the triumph of hope and wishful thinking over common sense.

[Mormolyce]

We've seen the devs do this before. It's like "X would be really convenient for us, the devs, THEREFORE the players will like it!" It's the triumph of hope and wishful thinking over common sense.

Do you actually play WoW? Caution: complaining about WoW on the forums doesn't actually count as playing WoW

[Osmeric]

Do you actually play WoW? Caution: complaining about WoW on the forums doesn't actually count as playing WoW

Yes, I do. And what did that question have to do with my statement you quoted?

[Xjev]

I think the problem is the mindset in general. Why should players be satisfied to be stuck in the old tier when the patch their all up and excited about is coming out tmmrw? Especially when the developers spend the majority of time (and money) making raids instead of other content they could do right away (like dungeons). It doesn't make any sense. It would be like paying for heart of the swarm and then being stuck on playing WoL cause you haven't beat it on brutal difficulty.

Well during TBC I really enjoyed progressing through Kara/Grull/Maggy then SSC/TK while other were maybe farming Hyjal/BT. I really didn't care where others were but again this is my personal experience, maybe others like to raid only last raid donno.

Man even doing High King Maulgar a year after TBC release with new friends felt awesome for me. How awesome TBC was lol. Again just personal opinion I respect all Vanila/TBC/WotLK/Cata/MoP lovers

[Rielthas]

I have my own idea.

I developed a raid model from the lfr up to combat this which I call the "Bad Player's Lore" raid model.

First off, make the LFR a 10 - 12 week gearing process, so that after the first few months of a tier, LFR offers little to anybody but late leveling players. This business of players still needing the last few upgrades after 6 months into a tier is counterproductive to higher level raiding. Players have to have a reason to reach beyond the LFR - and having virtually no outstanding upgrades after 3 months would accomplish this. The gear from LFR could be even lower in comparison to 10 man regular than they even currently are if Blizzard prefers, of course.

Secondly, make 10 man regular easier, lower skill (beer league) content that WoW needs, and make it a completely separate lockout from all other raiding, allowing everybody in the game to run it every week, even for fun. Players who enjoy content, find it fun, and have fun, will build skills and fondness of the raiding playstyle without even meaning too. Its also the second stepping stone for a new developing raider take once they have all they can get from the LFR

Players then have to decide whether to tackle 10 man heroic, which is a big jump in skill level, or gear up better by joining 25 man regular pug groups. 25 man would be revitalized, because it is slightly higher gear and skill level then 10 man regular (basically the same 25 man regular skill level we have now), but has an independent lockout from it, so players can run 10 man and 25 man regular both every week if they feel like it - this part will be very much like the peak of the game, Wrath of the Lich King ICC days. Many players ran a bit of 10 man and a bit of 25 man (via server-wide pugs often) every week, and many of us enjoyed it.

10 and 25 man heroic remain the same they are now, with roughly equal skill level and gear, and with lockouts that prohibit a player from running both. However, 25 man heroic can run the 10 man regular for beer league fun in their spare time. 10 man heroic would not be able to run 25 man regular conversely.

I think this will solve a lot of problems in WoW raiding today, and my even save it from serious decline. If any of you want more information on my model:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOy0G...tv4U6H1KIBDBPY

[Deleted]

If you re-ad different lockouts with higher level gear then you'll get threads of people complaining they're "forced" to raid both modes. Much as I think the death of 25 man is an absolute tragedy that should be reversed where possible (personally I'd love to raid it again!) I'm not sure there's an easier way to do it. I wonder, perhaps, if the more difficult 10 man mode might be because Blizzard's favourite guild went 10 man?

[Pua]

If you re-ad different lockouts with higher level gear then you'll get threads of people complaining they're "forced" to raid both modes. Much as I think the death of 25 man is an absolute tragedy that should be reversed where possible (personally I'd love to raid it again!) I'm not sure there's an easier way to do it. I wonder, perhaps, if the more difficult 10 man mode might be because Blizzard's favourite guild went 10 man?

I still think it's what's best for the game, and the community.

Those complaining about having to do both are, and were, a gross minority. 25-man guilds build (and are) communities; they provide more options for new players coming in, and more leeway with the roster regarding people sitting out.

Again, though, I can't shake the feeling that 15-man is coming.

And soon.

[Deleted]

If you re-ad different lockouts with higher level gear then you'll get threads of people complaining they're "forced" to raid both modes. Much as I think the death of 25 man is an absolute tragedy that should be reversed where possible (personally I'd love to raid it again!) I'm not sure there's an easier way to do it. I wonder, perhaps, if the more difficult 10 man mode might be because Blizzard's favourite guild went 10 man?

And the difference from doing 10 and 25 man vs doing LFR and normal mode is???

personally I would choose 10 and 25 every time. Because at least when doing 10 and 25 man you do it with friends or guildies or even if you do it in a pug people who do have more incentive to not act like jerks than people in LFR.
besides doing that second raid say on a friday evening would still be faster than doing LFR with all its ques and waiting.


Big guilds have more resilience than those small guilds, more people that try to make it work and keep it going. Sure big guilds have more drama, but they are also more fun socially. Besides have more people who play the same class as you does challenge you to become better and they can help and teach new players to get better. 10 man well you're mostly on your own trying to learn your class and get class feedback.
So back then there where players willing to help you out because you where part of the team. I helped a couple of guys giving out some pointers etc. because they where part of the team and I believed that they could play better with a few pointers. And if they played better and got up to our standard then the team was stronger and we wouldn't have to search for that spot anymore.

[Deleted]

And the difference from doing 10 and 25 man vs doing LFR and normal mode is???

<cut> 10 man well you're mostly on your own trying to learn your class and get class feedback.
So back then there where players willing to help you out because you where part of the team. I helped a couple of guys giving out some pointers etc. because they where part of the team and I believed that they could play better with a few pointers. And if they played better and got up to our standard then the team was stronger and we wouldn't have to search for that spot anymore.

Time investment - it takes more time to clear it. I did 10 and 25 man every week by choice because I liked to raid back then and I liked the guild I was in. Like you I would prefer ten times out of ten to raid with my guild.

I used to really like being an officer and being the go to because I could take the time to hone a raider that I wanted to have in my raids, and take them through Kara or the 10 mans in Wrath etc. My main problem now is that if people have done LFR they seem to think they know everything. They get so angry when I ask them questions on their applications because I want to know they can play. Being in a 10 man guild I can't take the chance they can't do their job because if they die it's normally going to be a wipe. I've gotten a lot more ruthless in vetting applicants because the content is harder than a lot of newer players are really trained to do.

[smokii]

i think they should add an LFR difficulty option to the 10 man raid UI.

that way, you could keep 10/25 normal and heroic difficulties unchanged, but give "family" guilds the option of an entry level difficulty, without 15 extra randoms.

a 10 man LFR queue would be a nightmare, both in terms of group composition and queue times, but for premade groups, it'd work well as an entry level raid - obviously, as it would be LFR difficulty, it'd have to drop LFR ilvl loot.

you'd than have 3 difficulty levels for each raid size - which i think is a better goal than messing with the current normal/heroic system.

[Deleted]

Time investment - it takes more time to clear it. I did 10 and 25 man every week by choice because I liked to raid back then and I liked the guild I was in. Like you I would prefer ten times out of ten to raid with my guild.

I used to really like being an officer and being the go to because I could take the time to hone a raider that I wanted to have in my raids, and take them through Kara or the 10 mans in Wrath etc. My main problem now is that if people have done LFR they seem to think they know everything. They get so angry when I ask them questions on their applications because I want to know they can play. Being in a 10 man guild I can't take the chance they can't do their job because if they die it's normally going to be a wipe. I've gotten a lot more ruthless in vetting applicants because the content is harder than a lot of newer players are really trained to do.

Hmm actually I think doing 10 man was faster back then than doing LFR now a days. With all the que time wasted of my life it tick tocks of the time invested.

Yea basicly recruiting for guilds has become more ruthless with 10 man guilds, because of oh no he is 10% of the group can he handle the pressure.
25 man guilds could be more lenient and could take more chances. Sure you got a lot crap but also got some great uncut gems. Then try out and see if it works in normal mode. But the minute you got to hard mode well you needed everyone to be top of their game.

Basicly back then you could recruit talents to groom into starters, now a days because of limited spots 10 mans are always going for starters and can't/do not want to afford adding talents to groom.

[Orion Antares]

A 10 man "LFR mode" that pre-made group based would be the best option. It should also share the loot lock out with regular LFR rather than sharing the raid lockout with Normal/Heroic.

[Hulari]

Just remove all difficulty options and go back to having one raid. No matter how many different difficulties there are.. people will moan that this one is too easy and this one is too hard.

One difficulty, be done with it. If people can't raid they won't, if they can they will.

[Scinder]

There is nothing wrong with the three levels of difficulty. Eventually people are going to expect a weekly epic in their mailbox every week. I raid two nights a week very casually and am working on Lei Shen. We've had to replace about half of our 10m raid group due to losing them to RL issues. Throughout this entire expansion, I have found nothing wrong with normal mode or LFR difficulty yet.

The problem lies with the raiders themselves. You have some that just want to be carried and not follow mechanics. Others that don't feel like investing the necessary time on their toon learn how to make the most of the gear they have and the class abilities. That's what LFR is for, where you can throw 25 people in a ring and take the prize money every single time. The hardcore raiders have hard modes.

If you can't beat an encounter, look at your fellow raid members, not at Blizzard. The encounters are tuned just fine.

I don't mind being classified as a casual raider. What I hate is the moaning and complaining by those that refuse to learn their class, the fight and won't use what they know to beat an encounter which triggers the elitist nut jobs to hate on everyone as a whole giving casual players a bad reputation.

[Glorious Leader]

Just remove all difficulty options and go back to having one raid. No matter how many different difficulties there are.. people will moan that this one is too easy and this one is too hard.

One difficulty, be done with it. If people can't raid they won't, if they can they will.

If they did this guess how easy the raids would be? Pretty fucking easy by and large. In that respect I do agree with this idea. It would basically force the issue and make the raid piss easy.