[TV] Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D

[Deleted]

Guys, seriously: minds waaaaaaaay smarter than ours have been discussing Free Will vs Predestination for millenia.

Yeah. Irrelevant.

And yes, there is scientific basis.

Nope.

Here's the Wikipedia article that can get you started on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Has nothing to do with changing the future. Time is movement. You can affect movement. There still is no scientific basis for "seeing into the future" the way they did it in the episode, and then not being able to change that "future".

[Kalcheus]

Has nothing to do with changing the future. Time is movement. You can affect movement. There still is no scientific basis for "seeing into the future" the way they did it in the episode, and then not being able to change that "future".

You have it backwards. There is no scientific basis for changing the future, just the typical human ego's desire to actually think it matters.

[Deleted]

You have it backwards. There is no scientific basis for changing the future, just the typical human ego's desire to actually think it matters.

Yeah you're clearly approaching the issue from some pseudo-philosophical, perhaps even partially religious standpoint, which has nothing to do with science.

[Kalcheus]

Yeah you're clearly approaching the issue from some pseudo-philosophical, perhaps even partially religious standpoint, which has nothing to do with science.

Actually, I was about to accuse you of the same. Interesting.

Look, here's what it comes down to: no one knows. Heck, for all we know we're all being controlled by nanite bacteria to ensure that the Singularity still happens the exact same way.

BUT, for what AoS have chosen to use as their "time travel" narrative device, everything they did in the episode is "correct". You can't argue with a predestination model of time travel/knowledge of the future because it is a valid model. We just don't know if it's the correct model.

[Deleted]

Look, here's what it comes down to: no one knows.

Hence, no scientific basis.

[Kalcheus]

Hence, no scientific basis.

That's not what I said. There are several models, all with varying degrees of scientific basis. No one is sure (or has "proven") which is the correct one. Frankly, the predestination spacetime model is probably the best developed scientifically (I find string theory unconvincing - although where is the extra gravitational force going? - and multiverse too egocentric).

As to keep this thread on topic, I'm not going to respond to you until you actually return an argument based on something outside of a bruised ego.

[Deleted]

That's not what I said.

No, that's what I am saying and have been saying.

[Kalcheus]

No, that's what I am saying and have been saying.

Yes, and you're wrong. Sorry. You can't ignore facts just because they don't conform with what you want to believe, no matter what modern politics says.

[Deleted]

Yes, and you're wrong. Sorry. You can't ignore facts just because they don't conform with what you want to believe, no matter what modern politics says.

You can stomp your foot and say that I'm wrong all day long, but there's no scientific basis for the bullshit about seeing the future and not being able to change the future in the latest episode. You're free to try and come up with some such basis, but since there is none, if you do come up with something, I'm guessing it must be because you're confusing scientific with something else.

I can't show the lack of scientific evidence, because the response to that will always be "well you just don't know the evidence" or some inane shit like that. The onus is on proving that there's a scientific basis to any of the shit in the episode, so feel free to do so, or feel free to keep using broad terms. I don't really care.

[Ragedaug]

Am I the only one who had a problem with the vision causing itself to be true? None of the events in the vision would have happened if the vision didn't happen. Just seems odd that the vision would cause future events, while showing you the events it just caused. If the vision left a few key points out, like the billboard on top of the building, it would not have come true.

Seemed to much like the "I learned this when I came back from the future to teach it to myself" type thing.

[Kalcheus]

Am I the only one who had a problem with the vision causing itself to be true? None of the events in the vision would have happened if the vision didn't happen. Just seems odd that the vision would cause future events, while showing you the events it just caused. If the vision left a few key points out, like the billboard on top of the building, it would not have come true.

Seemed to much like the "I learned this when I came back from the future to teach it to myself" type thing.

Also known as Predestination Paradox. Or Causal Loop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop).

It's also why Fry was the hero in Futurama, since he was his own grandfather.

It's a really hard idea to get your head around, as it requires you to ignore everything you've learned about cause and effect. But in a predestined universe with either time travel or future visions, it can happen.

[Deleted]

Also known as Predestination Paradox. Or Causal Loop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop).

There was no time travel involved with what happened in the episode, hence there was no causal loop. It was a "vision of a future", nothing to do with time travel. If everything was predetermined, then sharing that vision, or acting based on it, would have no effect on whether it comes true or not. Hence the vision was not the cause of what took place within that vision.

However, this is just pseudo-philosophical babble really, and has nothing to do with actual science.

[Khime]

There was no time travel involved with what happened in the episode, hence there was no causal loop. It was a "vision of a future", nothing to do with time travel.

Information traveled through time.

[Jamber]

I like how we're trying to dismiss an in-story explained phenomenon by using reality as a basis, but we can ignore everything about alien genetic tampering and sleeper genomes because it's "obviously science fiction". Maybe this is a fictional show with fictional truths that exist in the show. They may have some reality influence, but we can't compare the show's reality to ours. In the show, its scienece, it's reality.

As for the show, maybe his power is not seeing and sharing the future. Maybe his power is the creation of a future event by means of those he touches. They, and are compelled to complete what this guys power has wrought, and reality is twisted by his powers to make it true. If we look at it this way, we see the events happened not just because we saw them, but the seers were mistakenly thinking they could change things when in actuallity, this guys power has the ability to manipulate events to bring the result to fruition. If we look this way, it is not a causality problem, just another inhuman ability that has the power to shape reality (such as causing metal to melt by thinking about it or instantaneously transporting faster than the speed of light.)

[Kalcheus]

I like how we're trying to dismiss an in-story explained phenomenon by using reality as a basis, but we can ignore everything about alien genetic tampering and sleeper genomes because it's "obviously science fiction". Maybe this is a fictional show with fictional truths that exist in the show. They may have some reality influence, but we can't compare the show's reality to ours. In the show, its scienece, it's reality.

As for the show, maybe his power is not seeing and sharing the future. Maybe his power is the creation of a future event by means of those he touches. They, and are compelled to complete what this guys power has wrought, and reality is twisted by his powers to make it true. If we look at it this way, we see the events happened not just because we saw them, but the seers were mistakenly thinking they could change things when in actuallity, this guys power has the ability to manipulate events to bring the result to fruition. If we look this way, it is not a causality problem, just another inhuman ability that has the power to shape reality (such as causing metal to melt by thinking about it or instantaneously transporting faster than the speed of light.)

Except the first death he and his wife see is one of their mothers, and they weren't involved with that.

[Jamber]

Except the first death he and his wife see is one of their mothers, and they weren't involved with that.

It's possible they had some interaction. I know if I saw a vision of my mother dying, I would check in on her. That in itself is acting on the event, however small. Perhaps the power is a varying scale of personal interaction and reality manipulation. We only know what we see, and know less when we only hear a vague bit. It's a bit easier to swallow than an unchangeable flow. Something is acting to make the event rather than it just being.

[Zoaric]

Glad to have finally gotten a good (sorta) look at Hive. Also loved what they did with
Phil's hand.

[Khime]

Well, at least now we know why they introduced Malick's daughter to the show.

[Deleted]

Next week is gonna be awesome!

[ItachiZaku]

I always liked it when telekinesis power users used their power creatively.