So what's the deal with Arms PVP in 5.3?

[Mukki]

Yeah, well not as funny as seeing warriors screaming "WARS OWN L2P NOOB" between mouthfuls of dirt resulted from losing almost all 1v1 fights. I don't even have a high level warriors myself, but I have seen a million warriors being stomped everywhere where there is no healer around. Can't even remember the last time I lost a fight to a warrior on any of my characters.

Edit. Yeah, I remember, it was with my crappy geared ww monk that I lost to a warrior in AV.

I'm sorry you've only encountered terrible warriors. I'd be happy to show you otherwise.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 12:55 PM ----------

Fist of Justice, 6 second stun with 30 second cooldown (if you use the talent, 45 sec otherwise) VS Kidney Shot, 6 sec stun, (combo finisher) and Cheap Shot, 4 sec stun, (requires stealth/SD, combo builder).

How does a Ret stun as much as a Rogue?

CC? Okay.

Ret CC: Blinding Light (AoE Blind for 6 seconds, 2 min cooldown), Repentance (8 sec incapacitate, 1.5 cast time, 15 sec cooldown) <- Talent that no decent Ret takes because it has a cast time and is on the same tier as Fist of Justice.

VERSUS

Rogue CC: Sap (8 sec incapacitate, no cooldown, requires Stealth), Gouge (4 sec incapacitate, 10 sec cooldown), Blind (8 sec disorient, 2 min cooldown), Garrote (3 sec silence, no cooldown, requires Stealth), Dismantle (8 sec disarm, 1 min cooldown).

(Redirect can also be used to stun a secondary target)

Yea, exactly the same amount of stuns and CC. lol

I like how you close with comparing the amount of stuns, yet you didn't list a single stun in your post. CS/KS and FoJ say what's up.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 12:56 PM ----------

A ret pala can cc and stun just as much as a rogue and his burst is much higher.

A ret paladin also hits like a wet noodle when his burst isn't up. Survive a ret's burst and you win.

[Flaks]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about warriors?

Anyways it sucks that warriors happen to be the class with the least grip in the game. I would gladly sacrifice the first tier of talents for a little grip that isn't tied to heavy burst cds (and thus lowering the warrior skill floor/cap even further than it already is).

[Mukki]

Arms is better because of the nerfs to Shadow (Inc Melee Cleave) and Subtlety and the buffs to hybrid. They basically does good with any melee cleave or KFC. Honestly, Warriors are easily above Rogues currently.

There is no point in playing a Rogue this patch when playing a Warrior is 3 times easier and provides better results. That's what I hate the most about Warriors is that they're way too easy to even be considered a class. They should be a beginners class in my opinion, only viable up to a certain rating like Frost DK's. That way there's an actual incentive to play melee such as Rogues.

As someone who plays a rogue and warrior at max level, I've found my rogue to actually be easier to play with, though my warrior is definitely more fun. Lol that you think they're easy to play. You must have no idea how to counter a warrior, because I'll tell you right now, it's not hard if you know what you're doing. Also, warriors weren't even considered viable, rogues were OP last patch, very few people wanted warriors for RBGs, etc. I would say that you are quite mistaken.

[Deleted]

A ret paladin also hits like a wet noodle when his burst isn't up. Survive a ret's burst and you win.

Unfortunately, the same can be said about pretty much all dps specs. Seems to be the fad for pvp this patch: everyone does shit damage until they pop cds and 2 shot something.

I think only rogues and monks have interesting damage outside of cds.

[Flaks]

Unfortunately, the same can be said about pretty much all dps specs. Seems to be the fad for pvp this patch: everyone does shit damage until they pop cds and 2 shot something.

I think only rogues and monks have interesting damage outside of cds.

No, definitely not rogues. While every class has weak damage outside cds, sub has by far the weakest. Mut on the other hand is exceptionally strong on sustained and if that's what you meant then I'd agree. But the most powerful sustained definitely goes to WW monks and Frost Dks.

[Deleted]

No, definitely not rogues. While every class has weak damage outside cds, sub has by far the weakest. Mut on the other hand is exceptionally strong on sustained and if that's what you meant then I'd agree. But the most powerful sustained definitely goes to WW monks and Frost Dks.

Ah yeah forgot about frost dks.

[kosechi]

So they are being trained out the gate all game, yet are sitting in hard cc all game? Seriously I think you have a thing against rets; they arent as bad nor as squishy as you say in my opinion, at least in the middleish brackets. Ive played roughly 60 games at ~2100 mmr since 5.3 came out and at least 10-15 ret teams, and I think only one game was the ret the first kill. Their mobility and magic DR cds prevent my wizard team from nuking the ret effectively on top of their ability to be damn near unkitable. Plus their cc synergy with hunters is rediculous. My dk/boom/heal team was never able to kill rets due to kiting ability against my dk and again multiple magic DR cds and great selfhealing. One of the rets we played (and trained) outhealed his disc priest even though he was the main kill target. He also bursted through my shell in 2 gcds.

Maybe rets are squishier against melee cleaves, but dont know since I dont play one even though I imagine bubble and multiple bops with their mobility can shut down alot of melee dmg. Anyway, in alot of comps wars have, a ret would be a better choice imo. War/lock/heals and kittycleave are the only teams I can think of where the war is better than a ret alternative.

there are quite a few hard ccs, most notably fears and stuns that facilitate training a ret if you hunt around in my post history you can find me explaining how fears are often used as stuns to prevent action during swaps because of their high break threshold. this is true for everyone, but rets are particularly vulnerable to it because they can't break either of them.
and i DO have a thing against rets, i've played one for 6 years and i've seen a lot of people say a lot of very misinformed things about them because they got blown up by rets in mid range arena.
ret damage IS scary, but thats about the end of it right now, in the past they were fairly sturdy so they could support a more fragile melee, but now that they are so squishy, and they can benefit from so little of their utility they are just not not strong enough. they are more controllable than any other melee during their burst, and they have some of the weakest defenses of all the melee.

people need to stop with this idea that bubble/bop are good defensive cds for the ret. they are not. rets are probably even weaker against melee trains then they are against caster comps because all they can do against melee is run away from them.

warriors are in a better spot than rets simply because their survivability is better. i think what a lot of people are overlooking is that melee in general is kind of underrepresented right now due to how strong wizards are.

[Deleted]

only viable up to a certain rating like Frost DK's. That way there's an actual incentive to play melee such as Rogues.

Probably the most retarded thing I have ever heard because your probably either a mage or a fotm player.

[alsarmad]

Warriors are still junk at pvp, as per usual. They're only good at the beginning of expansions.

Infracted

100% true

[Johnmatrix]

Warrior was never junk last patch either. Rampage-Saccage battlegroup top 50 had more warriors than rogues in 5.2. before rogues were butchered and warriors got buffed. Every warrior who calls the spec junk just can't play the class properly. I played quite a few 2k mmr 3s yesterday and arms warrior was among the highest represented specs that we met among with still retarded BM hunters and new 200k stormblast enhancement shamans.

[Deleted]

Warrior was never junk last patch either. Rampage-Saccage battlegroup top 50 had more warriors than rogues in 5.2. before rogues were butchered and warriors got buffed. Every warrior who calls the spec junk just can't play the class properly. I played quite a few 2k mmr 3s yesterday and arms warrior was among the highest represented specs that we met among with still retarded BM hunters and new 200k stormblast enhancement shamans.

Ok.

1. There were so many warriors in 5.2 because the QQ about 5.0 warriors didn't have time to die out, so people still thought they can just faceroll with a warrior. Not to mention it was very much possible to still faceroll noobs in AV as a warrior. Also, warriors are very fun to play.
2. Here we go again with the "this class is fine because arena" argument. Myself and a lot of people don't really give a crap about arena and even less crap about high ratings. Just because a class is represented in the arena ladders doesn't mean it's good at general pvp. Warlocks have been melting arena ladders in TBC, wotlk and Cata. Would I have rolled a warlock for pvp in wotlk or cata knowing full well how much they sucked at pvp without support/healer back then ? Hell no!

I played tons of bgs and rbgs. There is usually like 1 or 2 warriors per random bg that is not AV and close to none in rbgs.
I did a lot of wpvp and I didn't encounter any warrior that wasn't some nooblord doing dailies, nor was I ever ganked by a warrior.
I did a lot of duels and I didn't see any warrior even trying to duel. Those that did try lost all duels except against the odd rogue.

But hey, at least they're highly represented in the arenas, because we all know PVP = arena. That makes everything better.

Yes, I know Blizzard only cares about 3v3 and pvp is not balanced around duels. And because I know this, I don't play classes that excel at group pvp while sucking at solo and random pvp, but it seems lots of people don't know this and they end up QQ-ing on forums and threatening to quit.

[Deleted]

Fist of Justice, 6 second stun with 30 second cooldown (if you use the talent, 45 sec otherwise) VS Kidney Shot, 6 sec stun, (combo finisher) and Cheap Shot, 4 sec stun, (requires stealth/SD, combo builder).

How does a Ret stun as much as a Rogue?

CC? Okay.

Ret CC: Blinding Light (AoE Blind for 6 seconds, 2 min cooldown), Repentance (8 sec incapacitate, 1.5 cast time, 15 sec cooldown) <- Talent that no decent Ret takes because it has a cast time and is on the same tier as Fist of Justice.

VERSUS

Rogue CC: Sap (8 sec incapacitate, no cooldown, requires Stealth), Gouge (4 sec incapacitate, 10 sec cooldown), Blind (8 sec disorient, 2 min cooldown), Garrote (3 sec silence, no cooldown, requires Stealth), Dismantle (8 sec disarm, 1 min cooldown).

(Redirect can also be used to stun a secondary target)

Yea, exactly the same amount of stuns and CC. lol

apples and oranges, atleast rogue cc have resource cost unlike rets. would love to see the amount of QQ if fist of justice required 3 holypower to cast.

A ret paladin also hits like a wet noodle when his burst isn't up. Survive a ret's burst and you win.

same goes for rogues, tho rets noodles hit harder than our noodles.

on the topic! warriors are just fine.

[Hand Banana]

there are quite a few hard ccs, most notably fears and stuns that facilitate training a ret if you hunt around in my post history you can find me explaining how fears are often used as stuns to prevent action during swaps because of their high break threshold. this is true for everyone, but rets are particularly vulnerable to it because they can't break either of them.
and i DO have a thing against rets, i've played one for 6 years and i've seen a lot of people say a lot of very misinformed things about them because they got blown up by rets in mid range arena.
ret damage IS scary, but thats about the end of it right now, in the past they were fairly sturdy so they could support a more fragile melee, but now that they are so squishy, and they can benefit from so little of their utility they are just not not strong enough. they are more controllable than any other melee during their burst, and they have some of the weakest defenses of all the melee.

people need to stop with this idea that bubble/bop are good defensive cds for the ret. they are not. rets are probably even weaker against melee trains then they are against caster comps because all they can do against melee is run away from them.

warriors are in a better spot than rets simply because their survivability is better. i think what a lot of people are overlooking is that melee in general is kind of underrepresented right now due to how strong wizards are.

Honestly the thing that is making rets so good right now in my opinion is their synergy with hunters. Played multiple hunter/ret/healers and the scatter -> trap -> silencingshot -> foj cc chain every 30 seconds is rediculous (also my issue with dk/hunter teams). Plus hunters bring roar of sacrifice for their ret and with a disc healer a ret will never die, but thats mostly a disc issue since they are insanely OP and still have multiple bugs making their healing too strong.

Anyway wars are middle of the pack right now, balanced I would say, which is a "good thing" since thats where everyone else is supposed to be. The problem is dks and most melee hybrids arent there, they are way above average.

[Spydahlol]

Haven't had a chance to play much since Tuesday. Are there ANY viable comps we can run in 3's? How does damage output seem in full Tyranical? I have a feeling we bottom barrel still compared to a Rogue/WW monk/DK, plus Rets got buffed.

So how is it?

Also did they ever change the 2piece PVP set to 10% less damage in battle stance or did it not go live?

My DMG output seems to be fine with the changes in 5.3... Currently im playing KFC and WLD at ~2200 and having fun with it.

[Flaks]

"Middle of the pack" might as well be equal to being bad because most people seek out the "above average" specs. Warriors are a detriment to take on your team over other classes because they have the worst time sticking to their target (see: least grip). Healers are forced to decide if it's best to dispel roots on warriors OR on hard cc unlike for other melee where the healer can for the most part simply just focus on hard cc's or dots. EVERY other melee has ways to stay on top of their target either due to root/snare immunity or removals AND higher movement speeds. No number of charges/heroic leaps/intervenes can make up for this.

And with how pretty much every other melee now has equal or more burst than warriors it's not looking too great for warriors all around. And despite the defensive stance buff we're still great train targets due to dstance gutting our damage.

[Lerdi90]

Ok.

1. There were so many warriors in 5.2 because the QQ about 5.0 warriors didn't have time to die out, so people still thought they can just faceroll with a warrior. Not to mention it was very much possible to still faceroll noobs in AV as a warrior. Also, warriors are very fun to play.
2. Here we go again with the "this class is fine because arena" argument. Myself and a lot of people don't really give a crap about arena and even less crap about high ratings. Just because a class is represented in the arena ladders doesn't mean it's good at general pvp. Warlocks have been melting arena ladders in TBC, wotlk and Cata. Would I have rolled a warlock for pvp in wotlk or cata knowing full well how much they sucked at pvp without support/healer back then ? Hell no!

I played tons of bgs and rbgs. There is usually like 1 or 2 warriors per random bg that is not AV and close to none in rbgs.
I did a lot of wpvp and I didn't encounter any warrior that wasn't some nooblord doing dailies, nor was I ever ganked by a warrior.
I did a lot of duels and I didn't see any warrior even trying to duel. Those that did try lost all duels except against the odd rogue.

But hey, at least they're highly represented in the arenas, because we all know PVP = arena. That makes everything better.

Yes, I know Blizzard only cares about 3v3 and pvp is not balanced around duels. And because I know this, I don't play classes that excel at group pvp while sucking at solo and random pvp, but it seems lots of people don't know this and they end up QQ-ing on forums and threatening to quit.

You are not the onlyone with that opinion, I think duels and world pvp 1v1 is one great part of pvp wolrd at all, i duel a lot and with warr you are probably the worst class for what we love the most!

[Laeryn]

me + resto shaman vs arms + [healer here] is almost assured win. rbg's warriors are only good for skull banner =\ they have little utility aside from that. Their damage is just.. so MEH, they are tanky with whatever it is that allows them to regenerate so much health at low percentages, so focusing them first is pointless.

I just ignore them entirely and peel them and kill their healer, if it's a priest and they life swap you disable the priest and i get a TOD off on the arms, its entirely too easy. Big change from early mop..

I never take Arms with me in anything over 1500 RBGs..I'd almost rather an Enh shaman if we didn't have an ele or resto already.. and that's lol.

[meathead]

this is nothing new,this is what happens to warriors in the last few x-pacs.warriors start off strong/op because they were so bad in the last season of the previous x-pac.warriors get a few months of strong play then bang nerfed into shit and left that way until the next x-pac,then the cycle re starts. all the while classes like mages are left untouched for the most part.

half the problem is long time "good" warriors keep playing their toon even when they are shit.so when warriors do become strong/op'ed all the long time "good" warriors destroy everyone and everything because we know how to play our toons,unlike the tools that re reroll every patch.when your use to playing a class "warriors" that usually suck more then they are good.its helps to build "skill" on that toon.so when they are strong, skill+ strong toon = soon to be nerfed.