When I get that feeling I want sexual healing (disc priest)

[Deleted]

Did you see my previous post?

[ramennoodleking]

No I wasn't referring to you when I made that post. Was to the other person. I guess I should start quoting but I'm on my iPhone and sometimes these chat boxes bug out.

At any rate, in response to your post, you can caveat something with "there are no benefits" and then follow tht up with "except" because it means there are, in fact, benefits. I think you can't understate clustering asant of your spells I to a small number of modifiers, but everyone does things differently.

Then again, we are probably arguing unnecessarily because we probably have different setups. For instance, if you are using a mouse with just 4 buttons and a mouse wheel, I can understand why you might take a different playable approach. In that case you'd rely more on your keyboard for spells and more on your mouse for movement.

My setup is, as I stated before, is a Razer Naga. I use my keyboard for forward movement, strafing, and shift/cntrl/alt modifiers for the 17 buttons on my Naga. Q and E are for personal, untargetted cooldowns. I use the cursor to shift camera positions only, so I can keep moving while casting clique key binds or action bar abilities. Further, my cursor is usually visible because of this. I also play max camera directly overhead, so the few times I need to scan the room doesn't effect my casting.

For my setup, your style of play may as well be Greek to me.

[Deleted]

But what is the benefit of having more action bar space? Because that is all Clique provides for a player like me. Binding spells like you do would limit me so I don't gain the "less hotkeys-benefit", which isn't really a benefit for players like me because of the downsides mentioned in my previous posts.

And it's not about having different setups. You are just playing PvE style. If you have your camera overhead, you see much less. The only thing you gain is seeing things from a different angle but you don't see as much ahead of you or to the side. Also makes turning camera to the sides more difficult.

You lose character control by not using mouse buttons to control your character. I use both keyboard and mouse to control character for full control. You are just using one of the two. You are unable to chain-cast a spell like PoH on yourself while scanning room. Like I do in the example video. Same with Flash Heal or cast instant spells while running. I can turn camera and my character while casting those spells without interruption, you can't.

So your play is non-optimal and just because you are used to it doesn't make Clique a good choice for people who play their character to their full potential, it can actually cripple them.

[ramennoodleking]

You obviously misunderstood what I'm saying.

I chain cast and scan all the time. There's such thing as a cast time. And I'm constantly using my cursor to spin my toon around and move. The overhead perspective actually lets you see more around you in a flat circle, great for ground effects and perspective; leaning any direction with the camera skews what you see towards that direction and less behind you, which works in many scenarios as well, which I also make full use of. I don't need to watch your example video because I know how I personally play, and I have absolutely zero problems watching the raid, myself, and my raid frames. I certainly have absolutely no problems moving or casting on the move.

Your assumptions are completely unfounded and based on your faulty bias towards mouse over macros and your particular play style. I'm biased towards clique and the freedom I feel I attain from that and so I readily suggest it to others. But don't think twice about how I play. I think the word you were looking for was "suboptimal," but my play is not that way. I eek out the very most out of my ability to move, cast, and maintain raid awareness.

So cool your engines, I'm not attacking you personally so back off. I just think that it's nonsensical to believe there isn't a benefit to decreasing the number of buttons you need to press while also thinking you completely overvalue being able cast PoH on yourself without hovering over your name. Lol? Seriously? That example is so entirely useless to this argument it really merits no comment from me because there is virtually no difference in time in between how you and I can cast it.

[Deleted]

How can you? Because assuming you use Smite on 4 too, you would be casting Smite if you don't have your mouse on the Grid frame, and you can't move your camera without interruption by having to release and move your mouse cursor/button every 1.8 sec or something. You can't spam Flash Heal on yourself while turning camera without having to lift your mouse button, go back to the Grid frame and then go out of the Grid frame press down mouse button again. All that within 1 second. Oh, you also want to turn the camera in that time too.

You need to see the video because it shows you what I can do which you cannot. As I said, just because you've grown accustomed to play the way you do and therefore not realizing what you can't do doesn't make it a good way to play.

Do you know why every top PvP player use target macros and not mouseover to heal? Because they lose zero character control by doing so. They would lose awareness by having to constantly check where their cursor is if they use mouseover. Just look at any top PvPer and tell me they only use their keyboard for movement and their cursor is visible for most of the time. You can't. Because they would lose character control and awareness. Hydra and Talbadar are some good examples.

You can't use your cursor for camera movement, character movement or clicking other stuff if you play the way you say you do. It's impossible. You can't run and cast instants such as PWS, PoM and Renew on yourself whle controlling your character to its full potential.

And yeah, I probably meant suboptimal. Sorry, English not my native language.

Here is the difference between your method and mine when chain casting something on our own characters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AACMM7cPk_c

[ramennoodleking]

I know what top PvP players use because I studied what they did for casual arena play. Mouse over macros do not work in those situations, I know, and I adjusted my play style accordingly. It involved new binds and macros and mapping out heals to individual targets. Was I ever a top PVP player? Of course not, but I understand the logic.

Back to your scenario. There is NEVER a need to be constantly revolving your camera in a PVE setting. I can spam PoH and move my camera because I have become extremely adept at doing it. No one ever spams flash heal, and the only circumstance where I would be handicapped is if I'm PW:S 5+ people after meta/trink procs, and even then you would have to use mouse overs to effectively do that to those targets.

Does my style of play work in PVP? Hell no. But it works in PVE, and works very well. There has never been a point in a raid encounter where I have been unable to move or heal or view with my camera properly. It just doesn't happen. So your examples are both unrealistic and, again, based on your assumptions of what you believe I can or cannot do.

Anyway, I'm done. No need to continue so far off topic.

[Deleted]

@Ramen. Not really sure exactly what you can and can't do as quickly with your setup, you admit that it has weaknesses yet seem to claim that the ones pointed out are what "Ariadne believes you can or cannot do", so feel free to clarify what they are. Either way I do know that I as a healer/raidleader constantly looks around checking everyones position (which is especially cruical for PoH:P). Being able to maintain accurate movement without letting it affect your output is also especially important in this tier.

You admit that your playstyle doesn't work in pvp, I fail to see how that means that it's optimal in pve, what is it really that you 'need to' do in pvp that can't benefit you in pve in some situations? Yes, you can "get by" using a lot of things in pve, it's simply not as cutting edge regarding individual skill (and that's from a player who hasn't been pvping seriously since wotlk), but what's the gain? I'm currently using about 60 bindings comfortably and the only thing stopping people from doing the same thing is that they aren't using all the modifiers (which'll take them a day to get used to).

[Deleted]

I'm freaked out you people use PoH as an example, am I the only one using Aoe assist on vuhdo bars to find the optiman target for PoH? O.o I'm not sure I could do that with a macro equally as efficiently.

That's one of the main reasons I personally use Vuhdo with the inbuilt spells with click-healing. Then again I'm something of a mutation between Ramen and Ariadne in that sense, I love my Vuhdo binds, but I also use mouseover macros on my main bars for things like offensive defensive Penance.

[DiGG]

OP here: Ok so I did my night of healing, I didn't make a change to my macro after all... A wipefest on Megaera allll night sadly, but with my 503 ilevel, I was the top healer over the 2 others, which is sad I guess. I think I was averaging 58K hps, roughly 30% healing coming from Attonement (is that too high?). Healing wasn't the problem, we reached 3% before the (what's the name...) healing-beam-thingy kept healing him, and he enraged and wiped us haha. Maybe the dps was too low... which is sad...

[Deleted]

I'm going to give you supposed PvE scenario Ramennoodleking and you tell me your technique is just as good as any:

Lei Shen Heroic Mode. Bouncing Ball spawns right behind you. Let's say 20 yards away. You want to soak it. Possible ways to get there:

1. Backpedal to victory.
2. Rotate camera and character 90 degrees by holding down right-click button and strafe to spot.
3. Rotate camera 180 degrees by holding down left-click button and after camera is rotated press down right-click button to instantly turn and start running to the spot.
4. Rotate camera 180 degrees by holding down left-click button and after camera is rotated press down right-click button to instantly turn. After that lift both mouse buttons and start holding down "W" and run to spot.

Both your and my technique can accomplish this. But what you are unable to do is cast a PWS on yourself while doing either 2, 3 or 4. You are unable to cast a PWS if you use option 3 because cursor is not visible at any time. With your technique you can cast PWS right before or right after option 2 or 4, but you can not do them simultaneously. That is a limitation. That is inefficient. The same way clicking spells is inefficient.

The way you argue is exactly the same as clickers argue; "It works for me and never had any problems". It is still an sub-optimal way to play. Any time you turn your character using your mouse, you can't cast a spell on yourself with your technique. It is impossible.

My problem with your posts Ramennoodleking is that in your first post you seem to be saying that the ideas before you are bad. You talk as if your idea is the best when it is not for many players. The only thing you gain by playing the way you do is to save some keybinds. You forget, however, that this game is limited by GCD. You have 1-2 seconds to get to your next bind on the keyboard. That is plenty of time. So having 30 keybinds instead of 15 is not bad in any way since it won't affect your performance in raid due to GCD.

[ramennoodleking]

@Ramen. Not really sure exactly what you can and can't do as quickly with your setup, you admit that it has weaknesses yet seem to claim that the ones pointed out are what "Ariadne believes you can or cannot do", so feel free to clarify what they are. Either way I do know that I as a healer/raidleader constantly looks around checking everyones position (which is especially cruical for PoH:P). Being able to maintain accurate movement without letting it affect your output is also especially important in this tier.

You admit that your playstyle doesn't work in pvp, I fail to see how that means that it's optimal in pve, what is it really that you 'need to' do in pvp that can't benefit you in pve in some situations? Yes, you can "get by" using a lot of things in pve, it's simply not as cutting edge regarding individual skill (and that's from a player who hasn't been pvping seriously since wotlk), but what's the gain? I'm currently using about 60 bindings comfortably and the only thing stopping people from doing the same thing is that they aren't using all the modifiers (which'll take them a day to get used to).

Playstyle doesn't work in PvP because mouse over macros are awful in PvP. I'm fairly certain I said that. Raiding in general is better with mouse over macros (which is exactly what clique does). Further, the only supposed "limitation" to my setup is being unable to take less than a second to spin my camera around and cast an instant like PW:S on myself. If you want to call that a limitation? Because in my experience there has never been a situation or raid encounter where you have to move like a PvP player.

To Ariadne's question:

First off your question is slightly vague and there are countless variables to consider. But generally speaking I would use option 4 and cast right after heading that way. Your ability to make the positioning adjustment and casting PW:S is absolutely trivial in that circumstance. End result is the same, and more likely I would have been on the GCD anyway. So bad example. You also forget you can program your next cast midcast, so there's additional time there. You are severely overvaluing the minute amount of time it takes to make a position adjustment and not recognizing that all of the actions required to do so can happen during a GCD. So sure, Bouncing Ball spawns and I just got done shielding the tank, oh look I'm in a GCD lock so I'm able to spin my camera and start moving as the GCD is up and cast PW:S the same time you would. Again...trivial example.

In the end, we play two different ways but the end result is the same. It's nothing like clicking spells at ALL. We are talking about such far outlier examples and such tiny differences in time that it is, indeed, trivial. Congratulations, you save ~3 seconds over the course of an encounter over me.

[Deleted]

I don't really see how you possibly could play a healer to its full pontential without constantly changing your camera angle to see where everyone in the raid is to be honest. I'm not saying that accurate movement/changing your camera while casting is as cruical in pve as pvp, I'm saying that it's helpful to minimize your movement/make it as quick as possible, the difference is there even if it's smaller.

Regarding clicking. Considering the gcd, a good setup and some quick/accurate movements the main thing that clicking hurts is your ability to use the mouse to move while casting. I'd say that's exactly what your setup affects as well so I don't really see how it's a stretch to compare them.

[Deleted]

My point is, the way I play gives me more character control and less uneccessary clicks. In the example, I could just follow up the PWS with a PoM into Renew without any problems while maintaining full character control. It's just smoother and more efficient. So why would I adopt your playstyle? Why would anyone? You gain nothing that would increase your performance from it.

It is like clicking spells. Hell, clicking spells is at least GCD bound. What people argue against clicking spells is that you are not gong to be able to move your cursor fast enough every GCD or you will use too much awareness for it and that you'll lose control of character.

Same with moving a cursor to a raid frame and casting a sequence like PWS, PoM. It is the exact same thing. Compare option 3 and 4. The thing that makes 4 worse is that you have to lift your mouse buttons, move mouse cursor to a specific location (action bar button or grid frame is the same shit) and then press hotkey. How is that not similar to a person clicking a spell? He lifts his mouse buttons, moves mouse cursor to a button, clicks it.

And again, I can't stress the fact that you gain nothing that would increase your performance by playing the way you do but you do lose control. No matter how small you consider it to be, it is still a loss and it can affect performance. What if you wouldn't reach that bouncing ball because you cast PWS 1 sec too late?

Your answer to Cookie is a bit general. Could you give a more specific example to his question: "what is it really that you 'need to' do in pvp that can't benefit you in pve in some situations?"? You say mouse over are awful in PvP but don't say why and why it wouldn't apply to PvE.

[ramennoodleking]

It's a stretch because clicking actually affects movements. For fucks sake I don't know how many times I have to say that I hav no problem with movement or checking camera angles. The isolated example of needing to make a tiny camera adjustment to move a certain direction while casting a spell on myself (for disc, basically only PW:S) is so rare and the effects so minute that if they were to actuall be the difference between life or death then you were probably in the wrong position to begin with.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 04:09 PM ----------

The only difference is you have bound spells that can be cast on yourself to your action bar. PoM, shield, renew. I could do the exact same thing. But until it becomes necessary on an encounter I'm simply no going to bother. You don't seem to understand how isolated your example is as it pertains to PVE. There simply is never a need to play like a PVP player unless you are wanting to look fancy for a stream or youtube video, because there are no mechanics that require it. I have zero problems on Durumu's maze. How can that be? Maybe it's because I'm good enough to use my gcds to make any minor movement adjustments I need? Maybe it's because PVE =\= PVP?

Again, done here. I clear heroic content, rarey die to avoidable mechanics, and rank constantly. Nothing more for me to prove here. My advice remains: Clique allows far more customization and free potential key binds. Can't deny that. Whether that matters to you or not is irrelevant. Enjoy your days.

[Forgettable]

I can't believe i started such a ridiculous argument with one statement... Haha :P

[Chimaera]

The primary thing that makes healing in pvp different from pve is the number of potential targets. In arena you have targeting your entire team bound so you can just press buttons to target them and avoid using the mouse. You are not going to do that with a 25 player raid. You simply have to use your mouse to keep changing targets with that many possibilities and at some point there will be overlap of timing with changing targets and wanting to use your mouse for movement/camera changes. There will be theoretical waste in such cases. It is flat out unavoidable, but completely manageable.

[TirielWoW]

I'm freaked out you people use PoH as an example, am I the only one using Aoe assist on vuhdo bars to find the optiman target for PoH? O.o I'm not sure I could do that with a macro equally as efficiently.

That's one of the main reasons I personally use Vuhdo with the inbuilt spells with click-healing. Then again I'm something of a mutation between Ramen and Ariadne in that sense, I love my Vuhdo binds, but I also use mouseover macros on my main bars for things like offensive defensive Penance.

I use the AoE finder on Vuhdo, too. Though my main reason for Vuhdo is actually because it lets me be completely control freak with how I want each debuff to display on my bars.

[ramennoodleking]

The primary thing that makes healing in pvp different from pve is the number of potential targets. In arena you have targeting your entire team bound so you can just press buttons to target them and avoid using the mouse. You are not going to do that with a 25 player raid. You simply have to use your mouse to keep changing targets with that many possibilities and at some point there will be overlap of timing with changing targets and wanting to use your mouse for movement/camera changes. There will be theoretical waste in such cases. It is flat out unavoidable, but completely manageable.

The above post is exactly my point. It's a trivial amount of "wasted" time, and the illustration of having some extremely dire need to move in zig zags and constant 180s while casting on yourself is simply not present in PVE. If I ever encounter a situation in PVE where I need to do that then I sure as hell will take the two seconds it requires to bind self targeted abilities so I can Zig zag like a madman and cast on myself. But until there is a true need--or I start pvping again--my setup is completely fine and optimal for PVE.

Thanks for bringing reasoning to the discussion without looking at raid healing in some awfully tight and theoretical vacuum.

[DiGG]

(nobody cares about the OP in this thread haha)

[Kalmah]

my setup is completely fine and optimal for PVE.

The whole problem is with the bolded part. Your setup is not in any way optimal. It's perfectly fine, sure.

This whole discussion wouldn't have happened if you just recommended your way of doing things without claiming it's the best way period and any other way is inferior.