Why is Exclusive content a bad thing to some people?

[melodramocracy]

only in the same way that anyone can win gold in the olympic 100 metres.

I didn't know raiding was a one time event that only a single person could win.

What game are you playing again?

[Deleted]

I didn't know raiding was a one time event that only a single person could win.

What game are you playing again?

You know what i meant and you know I am right. Hence the quibbling.

[Ronduwil]

Loot from LFR has absolutely ZERO to do with it... thats cos the thread is about SEEING THE CONTENT. And LFR allows u to see the content regardless on whether u get loot or not.

Well, why didn't you say so in the first place? Youtube has allowed you to SEE THE CONTENT for years. LFR didn't change that. You don't even have to log into the game to see the content. The 1980s called and they want that gaming paradigm where the only way to see content was to beat the game or admire screenshots in a gaming magazine back. I'm sorry, but this expectation of yours is just not reasonable in 2013.

[wow2011]

only in the same way that anyone can win gold in the olympic 100 metres.

I think the analogy is off because hard work alone cannot get you to #1 spot in olympics. I think hard work + dedication can get people to perform at a level that can take down heroic bosses. I really don't think you need to be talented in a special way to be able to full clear heroics. Hard work + dedication pretty much will get you a heroic full clear. Though not everyone can or want to put in hard work + dedication into a game. Talent only affects how much work and dedication you need to put in so you can perform at heroic raiding level (more talent = less work, less talent = more work).

Maybe a better analogy would be learning how to drive a stick shift from home to work without stalling. Not stalling is a tall order for me but I am fairly certain if I really cared to learn, I would be able to pick it up. I pretty much gave up stick after stalling 2 times in a parking lot.

[Deleted]

I think the analogy is off because hard work alone cannot get you to #1 spot in olympics. I think hard work + dedication can get people to perform at a level that can take down heroic bosses.

You're wrong.

I really don't think you need to be talented in a special way to be able to full clear heroics. Hard work + dedication pretty much will get you a heroic full clear.

Nope.

Though not everyone can or want to put in hard work + dedication into a game. Talent only affects how much work and dedication you need to put in so you can perform at heroic raiding level (more talent = less work, less talent = more work).

The ability to clear heroics hasn't got much to do with in game skill. The biggest factor is out of game organisational ability + man management skills. They don't hand those out with cornflakes.

Maybe a better analogy would be learning how to drive a stick shift from home to work without stalling. Not stalling is a tall order for me but I am fairly certain if I really cared to learn, I would be able to pick it up. I pretty much gave up stick after stalling 2 times in a parking lot.

Yeah that's a batter analogy. Just remember that before you learn to stick shift you need a car, a licence to drive etc etc

All of which is why the content isn't avilable for everyone.

[wow2011]

The ability to clear heroics hasn't got much to do with in game skill. The biggest factor is out of game organisational ability + man management skills. They don't hand those out with cornflakes.


Yeah that's a batter analogy. Just remember that before you learn to stick shift you need a car, a licence to drive etc etc

All of which is why the content isn't avilable for everyone.

My example is mainly related to the personal skill required to perform at heroic raiding level. My point is: if anyone really wanted to perform at heroic raiding level, they will be able to do so by putting in time and effort. I have also mentioned that not everyone wants to put in the work and dedication to be in a heroic raiding guild. But to say heroic content isn't available for everyone because they don't want to put in the time and effort is incorrect. I could use the same argument to say getting fit by exercising at home is an exclusive activity and not open to all.

Like you said, it has more to do with time organization and other factors such as finding a guild that fits your time and mindset, playing with friends/families, definition of fun etc. But from a skill point of view, heroic raiding is open to all. It really comes down to how important heroic raiding is to you and how much you want it.

[Deleted]

Well, why didn't you say so in the first place? Youtube has allowed you to SEE THE CONTENT for years. LFR didn't change that. You don't even have to log into the game to see the content. The 1980s called and they want that gaming paradigm where the only way to see content was to beat the game or admire screenshots in a gaming magazine back. I'm sorry, but this expectation of yours is just not reasonable in 2013.

So if all we need to do is watch the content on Youtube then thats what everyone shouldve done back in Wrath... instead of QQing to Blizzard so much that Blizzard changed the direction of Wow so all of the content easy to see. We didnt need LFR they shouldve stuck with Youtube right.

[fangless]

You know what i meant and you know I am right. Hence the quibbling.

Raids are around the entire patch, he has a point.

It's more like, being able to run a 400m race. The really good athletes can do it at any time, and the average athlete may need to train for a bit >_>

So if all we need to do is watch the content on Youtube then thats what everyone shouldve done back in Wrath... instead of QQing to Blizzard so much that Blizzard changed the direction of Wow so all of the content easy to see. We didnt need LFR they shouldve stuck with Youtube right.

Therein lies the issue, Blizzard folding to any and all forum QQ (which didn't exist, because a LARGE number of pugs were held in ICC, and ToC)

[melodramocracy]

You know what i meant and you know I am right. Hence the quibbling.

I did, and you aren't. You're utterly and completely wrong.

Raiding.
is.
not.
exclusive.
content.

And it's a complete cop-out on the part of every player who paints themselves as an unfairly treated second rate customer, rather than just looking in the mirror and realizing that they don't feel like applying the time / effort required to defeat said encounters.

[Deleted]

I did, and you aren't. You're utterly and completely wrong.

Raiding.
is.
not.
exclusive.
content.

Yes, it is.

And it's a complete cop-out on the part of every player who paints themselves as an unfairly treated second rate customer, rather than just looking in the mirror and realizing that they don't feel like applying the time / effort required to defeat said encounters.

Time and effort is the exclusionary factor. lol

[melodramocracy]

Yes, it is.


Time and effort is the exclusionary factor. lol

No, it's not. The player is the one who isn't willing to do what's needed. The game isn't impeding them in the slightest.

So your counter argument here is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying 'lalala I can't hear you'?

Good to know for future reference.

[nekobaka]

only in the same way that anyone can win gold in the olympic 100 metres.

The closest comparison is the end of season PVP rewards. You can go back later and see the PVE content. You cannot try harder next season and get last seasons mount.

So if all we need to do is watch the content on Youtube then thats what everyone shouldve done back in Wrath... instead of QQing to Blizzard so much that Blizzard changed the direction of Wow so all of the content easy to see. We didnt need LFR they shouldve stuck with Youtube right.

Players did not really complain about content exclusivity back in WotLK. Only a minority killed LK and players was fine with that and Blizzard was happy. with only a minority seeing all the content.

[Tomana]

No, it's not. The player is the one who isn't willing to do what's needed. The game isn't impeding them in the slightest.

Or, on the other hand, it's the editor who makes content require more time than the average target customer has. It works both ways.

[Ronduwil]

So if all we need to do is watch the content on Youtube then thats what everyone shouldve done back in Wrath... instead of QQing to Blizzard so much that Blizzard changed the direction of Wow so all of the content easy to see. We didnt need LFR they shouldve stuck with Youtube right.

The QQ was not over people wanting into raids. The QQ was because Cataclysm had half the dungeons that Wrath did while having just as many raids (if not more). Instead of realizing that most people just don't want to raid and shifting resources off of raids and onto the popular content Blizzard put out LFR in the hopes of making raids popular. That way they could continue to focus on putting out raids under the pretext that raids are now for everyone. This idea that LFR was created because of overwhelming demand for accessibility to raid content is simply wrong. You act as if LFR and flex raiding were made in response to casuals' demands, but it's actually quite the opposite. Blizzard is hoping to placate casuals so that they can focus on developing content for hardcore players.

[melodramocracy]

Or, on the other hand, it's the editor who makes content require more time than the average target customer has. It works both ways.

How much time the average target customer has is probably a number that no one will come to an agreement on.

It would be an interesting exercise to have access to stats on what the average play time is for both raiders and non raiders (and everything in between).

[Glorious Leader]

How much time the average target customer has is probably a number that no one will come to an agreement on.

It would be an interesting exercise to have access to stats on what the average play time is for both raiders and non raiders (and everything in between).

Well clearly when the developers casual weren't engaged this expansion it's likely that the target time for that play group is much less than what the developers think or aimed for. I mean they know this, they say the guy who plays 2 hours expects to progress at the same rate as the guy who plays 20. Well yea. Of course he does. His 2 hours is valuable to him. Why he should he be set back because some dude has 20 hours to commit to a video game? Why not just say no thanks and move on to something which is actually more casual friendly. In that sense raiding including lfr is entirely exclusive and not very casual friendly. Obviously this is much less so than it was in the past but the root of it remains.

---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 06:48 PM ----------

Time and effort is the exclusionary factor. lol

Very much so. It's the reason that traditional mmos were very niche and also very exclusive things. They never had mass market success till I guess EQ. I remember playing final fantasy and thinking this is fucking bullshit that I lost levels when I died. Or sitting on the boat for 8 hours in lineage and thinking who in their right mind can play this? Well the developers of warcraft recognized this that it made thse games subject to huge levels of exclusion and made a game that did this less so. They won. Those others game are a foot note in history.

This game was based on a principle of more accessibility, less exclusion, less time and effort constrains and more "fun". It has over the years grown from those principles and carried them forward. It wasn't until cataclysm when the developers attempted to turn this around and it bit them in the asshole. Same with mists. I'm glad it did and I hope it continues to bite them in the asshole until they get it through their thick skulls.

[wow2011]

Time and effort is the exclusionary factor. lol

Time and effort is the exlusionary factor for everythign in game and rmany many things in life. That is a pretty weak argument to use to say heroic raiding is exclusive content.

If you only care enough to spend 1 hour for raiding as DPS everyday then LFR is exclusive content as well. If you don't want to put in effort to level another alt then having level 90 alt is exclusive content. If you don't want to play pet battle then that is also exclusive content. Examples can go on and on.

[Glorious Leader]

Time and effort is the exlusionary factor for everythign in game and rmany many things in life. That is a pretty weak argument to use to say heroic raiding is exclusive content.

If you only care enough to spend 1 hour for raiding as DPS everyday then LFR is exclusive content as well. If you don't want to put in effort to level another alt then having level 90 alt is exclusive content. If you don't want to play pet battle then that is also exclusive content. Examples can go on and on.

Raiding in general (not just heroic) requires far more time and effort than almost any other thing in the game and really almost anything in any other game. Even lfr really. I can log on and say finish a mission or two in starcraft in an hour. Not finishing a wing in an hour, hell I may not even get the que for an hour. Raiding is the LEAST casual friendly and once again most exclusionary activity in the game and it's been made the central focus of this games "end game". Pet battles I literally click a button for and get. Wanting to and being able to are far different things. Raiding is exclusionary because it requires more time than is available for most.

[melodramocracy]

I mean they know this, they say the guy who plays 2 hours expects to progress at the same rate as the guy who plays 20. Well yea. Of course he does. His 2 hours is valuable to him. Why he should he be set back because some dude has 20 hours to commit to a video game? Why not just say no thanks and move on to something which is actually more casual friendly. In that sense raiding including lfr is entirely exclusive and not very casual friendly. Obviously this is much less so than it was in the past but the root of it remains.

Mr. Two Hours has a completely unreasonable approach to the game, and probably shouldn't be playing MMO's to begin with.

Or, conversely: If progress in this game was indeed tailored to be so minimal, then it's no longer worth paying a sub fee for, as I can get more entertainment per dollar from far less expensive titles.

[Glorious Leader]

Mr. Two Hours has a completely unreasonable approach to the game, and probably shouldn't be playing MMO's to begin with.

Or, conversely: If progress in this game was indeed tailored to be so minimal, then it's no longer worth paying a sub fee for, as I can get more entertainment per dollar from far less expensive titles.

It is worth paying a sub fee for mr 2 hours. The content available for him is amazing. It paced just right for him. Not to slow and not to unrewarding for his 2 hours. He can progress and feel like he's getting somewhere in that 2 hours even if some dude in kalamazoo (who really ought to have more in life than wow) is put out and bored because he can't grind for 20 hours and get one upgrade. Their are more of him then their are of you. Mr two hours does not have a completely unreasonable approach to this game, he has the approach that fits his life best. If you could potentially understand that other people are not basement dwelling no life neck beards who commit 20 hours to this game, if you could EMPTAHIZE with another human being then you would hardly call it unreasonable.

You keep going back to the genre conventions but wow broke almost all of them and was a massive success because it did. I'm not sure why you seem to think it should go back to obeying them now. if WoW had obeyed genre conventions we'd spend 8 hours on a boat just to get across the sea, raids would take 80-100 players and quite possible we'd loose character power every time we'd die.