Build 17093 Rogue Changes

[SynergyDarkstar]

It's 5.0 beta all over again!

[fierydemise]

If we're going to keep combo points remaining on target, then combo point generation needs to be changed in my opinion. It would be quite nice if we could perform an interesting combo of attacks to reach different goals. Or perhaps increase the rate at which you generate combo points based on whether you're getting the combo correct.

This would probably raise the skill cap way too high for Blizzard's liking though, so I'm stuck for ideas.

That would be dexterity/binding check more than an actual skill check. A good skill check is a mechanic when a player has to make a choice on ability usage and where the right choice isn't immediately obvious. Just adding a bunch of extra binds for the cp system doesn't do that.

[D3athsting]

If we're going to keep combo points remaining on target, then combo point generation needs to be changed in my opinion. It would be quite nice if we could perform an interesting combo of attacks to reach different goals. Or perhaps increase the rate at which you generate combo points based on whether you're getting the combo correct.

This would probably raise the skill cap way too high for Blizzard's liking though, so I'm stuck for ideas.

This is not Tekken m8

[Koji2k11]

CP on target has so many flaws they needed to bandaid fix them with Redirect which is still crappy as **** since you can use it just once every 1 minute if you want to bandaid fix this take the CD away and i will never complain again about CP's on target

everyone is using their resouces to their full potential its just rogue's lacking behind so annoying to waste CP's or get lost while FoK all over the place and switching target's alot and you redirect is on CD

[shadowboy]

It's just another patch of fixing spec balance through set bonuses. T15 "fixed" combat with the 4-set and T16 "fixes" subtlety with the 4-set. No REAL balancing here.

---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 09:19 AM ----------

about rupture, it should scale with haste and work with snapshot mode like other dots

Rupture snapshots already.


Other thoughts: I think CPs should be tied to a target, but redirect should have a 10-15sec cd and be off the GCD.

[Ryme]

This is not Tekken m8

Thanks m8, nearly 4got.

That would be dexterity/binding check more than an actual skill check. A good skill check is a mechanic when a player has to make a choice on ability usage and where the right choice isn't immediately obvious. Just adding a bunch of extra binds for the cp system doesn't do that.

I believe that's what I suggested in the former proposal, perhaps too vaguely. What I meant to get across was that it would be nice if the combo you built up had more involvement and from that involvement, a different outcome.

[fierydemise]

I believe that's what I suggested in the former proposal, perhaps too vaguely. What I meant to get across was that it would be nice if the combo you built up had more involvement and from that involvement, a different outcome.

I agree contingent on the actual implementation. I can see a case to be made that cp builders could use more dynamism but I think most of the ways to do that would do more harm than good. Combo points wouldn't be a bad place to put more rotational complexity but I think playing around with ability timings and finishers is a more elegant design.

[Ryme]

I think playing around with ability timings and finishers is a more elegant design.

Would you mind elaborating what you mean here?

[D3athsting]

Would you mind elaborating what you mean here?

Maybe somewhat similar to destro lock or fire mage where your output depends very much on good timing of hard hitting spells (combustion, chaos bolt), i don't deny that it happens for combat already but the difference between a good and a bad timing is minimal for rogue since 60% of our output is granted by autoattack, mastery procs and poison procs...

[Demitrius]

It's nothing of extreme importance and not related to this post. But I have always wondered why rogues can not walk/run and use throw. I mean in some conditions casters can cast spells while moving but we cant throw alittle knife or whatever the item might be? Seems silly to not be able to.

[Kassadin]

mostlikey gonna get a other 5% ap buff if anything. that or make Evis hit harder baseline. it pretty weak damage outside of a trinket proc..... sub 200k crits and sub 80k hits with my current gear.... yeah diff not broken. That and our ramp up 30% buff isn't cuting it anymore. they need to put that into talents or buff to something like 15% to 30% to 45 or 50%.

And rupture scaling. Oh my god why does it only crit for 30k with pot bad juju/soul charm heroic+30% dmg buff.....i mean really. combat is my fav spec and i wanna play but my god is it awful

If anything make rupture scale with haste that would be amazing.

---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 08:48 AM ----------




With how four set works. Sub might be viable since you can pretty much have 80-100% uptime on FW. That will be a HUGE dps gain for sub. 100% armor pen, yes please. have to see how it plays out in ptr tho.

The problem still stands; you need to be behind the target for it to function.

[D3athsting]

It's nothing of extreme importance and not related to this post. But I have always wondered why rogues can not walk/run and use throw. I mean in some conditions casters can cast spells while moving but we cant throw alittle knife or whatever the item might be? Seems silly to not be able to.

Well we have ST but chosing that as a lvl90 talent instead of anticipation is a huge dps loss while other classes have mobility talents in other less important talent tiers (tier1 for mage) or are baseline, i admit i have a lot of troubles in killing barrens bosses as a rogue (not soloing) without a healer while i steamroll everything with my ranged alts.

[Rigapples]

They did say (on multiple occasions) that Hunters and Rogues needed the most work. I am hoping that the reason we havn't seen any notes at all on Rogues (other than T16 Set Bonus info) is because they are working internally on a larger set of changes for us.

Combat desperately needs help, and they already admitted that the GCD was a failed attempt at a solution. Subtlety may actually be in a good place with the T16 bonus (basically 100% uptime on FW), so we will see how that plays out on the PTR. If they don't actually have some significant changes out in the next few weeks, then I fear that the Rogue community will dwindle even farther as the only useable spec for close to the past year has been Assasination. (combat had some niche fights in T14, until they killed our BF with this new bastardization of it. It's only useful on trash, and even then not really worthwhile.)

As for Riposte... motherfuckers. That did strike me as a slap in the face, although I know it wasn't meant to be. I was really hoping they were going to turn combat into a tank spec and give us that back along with ghostly strike. Would have been awesome.. but of course, fuck rogues. Right? QQ.

EDIT: Read some of the combo generation talks up above. I think that would really be interesting. If instead of "MUT MUT DISPATCH <finisher>" type of mundane generation and usage, we actually got a few more moves and we actually built different kind of combo points. Not really thinking this through, but perhaps hand and feet points.. so we could do Kicks, punches, stabs, chokes, etc etc etc. Maybe have 3 moves or so for each type of combo point (grappling points?) Each stored up to 5 on the Rogue, and each with unique finishers. So instead of popping SnD and Rupture and just doing our normal boring rotatoin, we actually have different physical moves which build up to different finishers which all could interact with bosses in a unique manner. (Flying takes more damage from grapples? Humanoids take more damage from Punches/Kicks? etc etc.) Sounds cool to me, but probably too much effort for them to add into a game as old as this.

[Naxere]

They could start by removing weapon limitations based on spec.

[D3athsting]

They did say (on multiple occasions) that Hunters and Rogues needed the most work. I am hoping that the reason we havn't seen any notes at all on Rogues (other than T16 Set Bonus info) is because they are working internally on a larger set of changes for us.

GC also twitted "don't expect massive overhaul"

I speak for myself but i think many rogues will do the same: if no rogue revamp (cp on rogue above all) will happen with 6.0 i'm going to reroll for sure, period.

[Rigapples]

GC also twitted "don't expect massive overhaul"

I speak for myself but i think many rogues will do the same: if no rogue revamp (cp on rogue above all) will happen with 6.0 i'm going to reroll for sure, period.

I love my Rogue, even with all the crap we have dealt with over the years. I've been playing one since vanilla and I will keep playing one until I quit for good... that being said, i started leveling a Shaman for raiding purposes because they bring so much more to the table (dat hero button) than Rogues. We lack utility, we lack justifiably higher damage to make up for lack of said utility. The 20% damage reduction to Smoke Bomb was a small crawl in the right direction, but with so many other raid CDs that are vastly superior than our 8yard radius fart smoke, it didn't provide us with the utility we really needed.

[D3athsting]

With smoke bomb dmg reduction they just threw us a bone, keep this in mind

[Wow]

They did say (on multiple occasions) that Hunters and Rogues needed the most work. I am hoping that the reason we havn't seen any notes at all on Rogues (other than T16 Set Bonus info) is because they are working internally on a larger set of changes for us.

We hoped that all beta and you saw how that went....

With smoke bomb dmg reduction they just threw us a bone, keep this in mind

While it is something its barely anything since you have to stack for it to do anything.

[Squirl]

While it is something its barely anything since you have to stack for it to do anything.

It's still useful on a bunch of fights:

• Jin'rohk – Thunder Storm
• Horridon – Wargod+Dire Call
• Council – Discharge (you can stack after Sul dies)
• Megaera – Rampage
• Ji-kun – Quills
• Iron Qon – p1/p4
• Twins – Nuclear Inferno
• Lei Shen – Static Shock, Ball Lightning, Thunderstruck

You can use it as a tank CD or a personal CD on any fight too. It's not bad.

We also bring Feint and CoS, which can allow us to cheese/soak certain mechanics or just take way less damage than everyone else.

We're in a pretty good place as far as raid utility, and our damage is more than competitive on most fights. The only raid utility I'd still like is a raid DPS CD similar to Stormlash and Skull Banner. If a raid is bringing melee, rogue should be their first choice most the time.

[Linneth]

Smokebomb as a utility CD is fine, if anything they should "nerf" Warrior utility which is over-the-top.