Cairne, the sad and betrayed Tauren

[Dreknar20]

It's Betraying because back then Baine trusted Garrosh to lead the Horde to a better path after Cairne death.

Baine and Garrosh didnt meet and unite until after the Grimtotem coup
Plus Baine was fine with letting all the Grimtotem leave so why would he expect/want Hellscream to not do that?

[Thimagryn]

It's Betraying because back then Baine trusted Garrosh to lead the Horde to a better path after Cairne death. So both recent Garrosh craziness and racisim + not taking action against Magatha because he is the warchief he should be responsible for taking action against her = Baine current conclusion.

"Baine Bloodhoof: And for what? What did the Horde gain from such actions? Garrosh is a fool, and a betrayer. I should have killed him long ago, when he betrayed my father."

He's talking about a betraying his father, presumably when he was still alive. This is the whole point of the thread, not that Garrosh made mistakes or is bad. It's the fact that he never betrayed Cairne.

Everything that happens after Cairne's death is irrelevant because Baine is talking in past tense. He's not saying that Garrosh betrayed his father after his death, he said he should have killed Garrosh long ago. For betraying his father. Something that never happened.

And I suggest if you hadn't, read the Shattering, because it's highly relevant to the conversation. I can see where you're coming from if you hadn't, since it would look clear as day that Baine blames Garrosh for the death of his father. This isn't the case. Baine, having accepted the events of his father's death, would not show up now with regrets of betrayal.

[Zulkhan]

Likewise, Magtha was very clever in how to push Hellscream's buttons, not that its hard to begin with.....
Such as just before the duel, Garrosh had a moment of hesitation, and Magtha basically saying "dont forget this dude just pimp-slapped you"

He indeed had hesitations because the whole situation was strange and absurd, anyway nothing can change that sensible buttons or not, Garrosh has been extremely naive in beliving in the good faith of such a ruffian, especially when, after all her sweet talk, she volunteered to "bless" his weapon in a DEADLY duel that involved Cairne himself; maybe you don't know, but you have at least to doubt, and not a single doubt birthed in his head.

Plus there wsnt much proof in a ways that marked Magtha as a vile schemar, only a said rumor that her mate (and former ruler of the Grimtotem) may have died "accidently" or somethin like that

Still, the duel with Cairne was a very unique occasion, blatantly "glutton", so some doubts and reservations should have born in his head.

There were apprant moments of learning here and there......
Such as a lesson of leadership - Garrosh learning when he met Baine that being a leader you are not going to be always cheered and loved by everyone always
Lesson of mercy - from that Tauren at Stonetalon
Unfortunatly those lessons didnt stick.............

What he "learned" after becoming the Warchief was meaningless. He had to learn as a simple military commander gradually raising in ranks, constantly supported in learning the new ways of the Horde. This would have taught to him the lessons of humbleness, respect and righteous pride, not a twisted and obsessive one.

When Garrosh became the Warchief and began to gradually exercise that awesome power, by satifying every whim he had in mind for shape the Horde to what should have been for him, was a point of no return, not for someone that instead of learning to keep in check his pride, now had the chance to bolster it to absurd levels.
And for this the lessons he "learned" has been learned in this new state of mind, simple examples:

-the lesson of leadership: yeah, he understood that you are not always cheered and loved by everyone, nor everyone will see you in the brightest light or fully agree with you, but is excatly for this that he became first a dictator and then an utter tyrant; he learned his lesson. In his way.

-the lesson of mercy: everytime that i saw Garrosh excersising any kind of mercy, has been always made for selfish pride in saying something like "you, yes, you, i'll let you live, delight in my gracious mercy" substantially. Showing mercy, those few times that this occured, has been always a chance for delight in the pride of doing it, not doing so because was the right thing to do by a moral standpoint.

[Velshin]

He's talking about a betraying his father, presumably when he was still alive. This is the whole point of the thread, not that Garrosh made mistakes or is bad. It's the fact that he never betrayed Cairne.

Yes but as I said the betrayed of Cairne wasn't about Cairne death or the poison it was because Garrosh afterward knew that it was Magatha who poisoned his Gorehowl. AKA the person who robbed Garrosh an honorable victory and robbed Cairne an honorable death. He fully acknowledged it yet he didn't do anything to stop Magatha.

[Dreknar20]

Strange, I remember I was killing Grimtotems in BC. Even in starting zone, weren't they the one doing something wrong with wells? Maybe I am wrong, long time ago.

I do recall some Grimtotem activity in Vanilla questing.....
But still, its not like the Tauren were at war with the Grimtotem since they were living in the same city together

---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 12:34 AM ----------

Still, the duel with Cairne was a very unique occasion, blatantly "glutton", so some doubts and reservations should have born in his head.

How so?
As said, she wsnt openly labeled as a vile schemar or anything. And just because she was "betraying" her own kin dsnt mean that she will do anything dirty.

[Zulkhan]

And just because she was "betraying" her own kin dsnt mean that she will do anything dirty.

But the line dividing these two things was simple too thin to be completely ignored.

[Zaelsino]

That bothered me too. It's one of the few occasions where Garrosh was in the complete right of things.

[Thimagryn]

Yes but as I said the betrayed of Cairne wasn't about Cairne death or the poison it was because Garrosh afterward knew that it was Magatha who poisoned his Gorehowl. AKA the person who robbed Garrosh an honorable victory and robbed Cairne an honorable death. He fully acknowledged it yet he didn't do anything to stop Magatha.

Which was fully explained in the Shattering. I quoted the sections two pages back. Baine came to accept that Garrosh was clear of wrongdoing, and Garrosh was even supportive of revenge on the Grimtotems. This clearly shows there is no betrayal involved. If there was, Baine wouldn't have accepted Garrosh as Warchief.

The only contention between the two is Cairne having died in vain. Again, this is nothing to do with betrayal. If Baine said 'I should have killed Garrosh long ago, when he killed my father' then everything works out.

[Velshin]

Which was fully explained in the Shattering. I quoted the sections two pages back. Baine came to accept that Garrosh was clear of wrongdoing, and Garrosh was even supportive of revenge on the Grimtotems. This clearly shows there is no betrayal involved. If there was, Baine wouldn't have accepted Garrosh as Warchief.

The only contention between the two is Cairne having died in vain. Again, this is nothing to do with betrayal. If Baine said 'I should have killed Garrosh long ago, when he killed my father' then everything works out.

Yes I know because I also read the Shattering , and no Garrosh was not supportive of revenge against the Grimtotems he was just pissed off at his ignorance of not knowing his weapon was poisoned by Magatha and just sent a letter to Magatha insulting her that's it he didn't do anything. Yes back then Baine fully accepted his father's fate and accepted Garrosh as his Warchief and pledged his loyalty to him but things can be changed. Baine didn't expect Garrosh will take the Horde this dark path which is why you see Baine change of attitude toward Garrosh now.

[Thimagryn]

Yes I know because I also read the Shattering , and no Garrosh was not supportive of revenge against the Grimtotems he was just pissed off at his ignorance of not knowing his weapon was poisoned by Magatha and just sent a letter to Magatha insulting her that's it he didn't do anything. Yes back then Baine fully accepted his father's fate and accepted Garrosh as his Warchief and pledged his loyalty to him but things can be changed. Baine didn't expect Garrosh will take the Horde this dark path which is why you see Baine change of attitude toward Garrosh now.

"Yet--your mercy to the Grimtotem confuses me. I have heard that although you have driven them out, you did not exact revenge on them either. Here, the mak'gora or even stronger revenge seems appropriate. Why did you not execute the Grimtotem? Or at least their deceitful matriarch?"

[Velshin]

"Yet--your mercy to the Grimtotem confuses me. I have heard that although you have driven them out, you did not exact revenge on them either. Here, the mak'gora or even stronger revenge seems appropriate. Why did you not execute the Grimtotem? Or at least their deceitful matriarch?"

As I said people can change you know it's like real life sometimes you make decisions then later in the future when things get dire or having bad situation or bad days you start to remember the past and maybe have some regret you will start ask yourself: "Hmm if I haven't done this then such thing would never happened."

It's clearly now Baine regret his past decision for being merciful and more regreting his decision for being loyal to a tyrant Warchief because back then he didn't know that Garrosh will drag the Horde this dark path. The only one who knew and have major expectation about Garrosh will never be a good Warchief and will only lead them to darkness was Cairne because of his experience in life and wisdom. He was right all along about Garrosh even Thrall knows Cairne was right but at that moment Thrall was kinda desperate and made his decision.

[Thimagryn]

People change, events don't.

Everything you're saying is fine, but I don't see what it has to do with the point that Cairne was never betrayed by Garrosh. Baine can change the way he feels about Garrosh, but it doesn't mean he can start blaming him for things he never did.

[Katie45]

People change, events don't.

Everything you're saying is fine, but I don't see what it has to do with the point that Cairne was never betrayed by Garrosh. Baine can change the way he feels about Garrosh, but it doesn't mean he can start blaming him for things he never did.

why not? people do that all the time in real life. people always blame others for stuff they did not do it not far fetched that Baine is doing that because he is mad at Garrosh for what is going on now.

[Thimagryn]

Because it's bad writing?

Think of it this way. Years later, Bolvar, the new Lich King, raises an army of undead and starts a new campaign against the living. Bolvar destroys a few major cities in this war. Tirion once more heads up the Alliance and Horde together with the Argent Crusade to fight back the threat. He says to Bolvar "I should have killed you long ago, when you betrayed the Alliance".

It's an out-of-place statement because it's untrue.

[Xeraxis]

So Baine isn't allowed to have tinfoil hat theories about Garrosh actually betraying his father yet you're allowed to have tin foil hat theories about them retconning it?

---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 02:51 AM ----------

Because it's bad writing?

Think of it this way. Years later, Bolvar, the new Lich King, raises an army of undead and starts a new campaign against the living. Bolvar destroys a few major cities in this war. Tirion once more heads up the Alliance and Horde together with the Argent Crusade to fight back the threat. He says to Bolvar "I should have killed you long ago, when you betrayed the Alliance".

It's an out-of-place statement because it's untrue.

In that case yes it is untrue but you have to remember that only we the players know what truly happened in the duel because of The Shattering. Up until this point it's only been Garrosh's word that he didn't poison Cairne and it was Magatha's doing all along. Would you continue to believe the word of someone who has clearly gone bat-shit insane? Or do you truly believe that the NPCs have gotten the book and read it themselves to you know hash out any details pertaining to their lives?

[Thimagryn]

Yes, because they wrote a novel explaining that he acknowledged Garrosh being free of treachery.

The only solution is if there is new evidence provided that shows that Garrosh planned it all along, or that he was involved with some sort of betrayal. If they do this, then it's still bad writing and retcon, because throughout the Shattering he is painted as an honourable warrior. A hot-headed, foolish warrior, but nonetheless honourable. Batshit insanity doesn't give cause to be blamed for every bad incident in the past.

Baine knows it was Magatha's doing because he confronted her after her failed coup. It was concluded right then and there that it was her plan. She didn't speak out on anything he said, making no notion that it was Garrosh's plan (which would have served to her purpose of a more lenient punishment, whether true or not). Baine believed that Garrosh was simply a pawn. It's in the damned novel, this is what we're supposed to believe to be true. There are no hints otherwise.

If this is all a ruse and Garrosh planned it all out from the beginning, it destroys the integrity of everything written in that novel. It comes off more as a retcon than a red herring. This is very much similar to the Redshirt bringing up the whole Kurdran/Falstad thing, it's an oversight that has complications to it if it came to pass.

[Xeraxis]

Yes, because they wrote a novel explaining that he acknowledged Garrosh being free of treachery.

And once again do you believe Vol'jin and Baine have read The Shattering? Think real hard before you answer that.

[Velshin]

People change, events don't.

Everything you're saying is fine, but I don't see what it has to do with the point that Cairne was never betrayed by Garrosh. Baine can change the way he feels about Garrosh, but it doesn't mean he can start blaming him for things he never did.

and why not? is Baine perfect angel who doesn't have emotions or can't be wrong sometimes? he is normal mortal he has emotions he can hate/love, regret, and blame either he is right or wrong is not relevant. The most important part is shows that he is mortal and can express his emotions and he can be change either to the better or worse.

[Aquamonkey]

In that case yes it is untrue but you have to remember that only we the players know what truly happened in the duel because of The Shattering. Up until this point it's only been Garrosh's word that he didn't poison Cairne and it was Magatha's doing all along. Would you continue to believe the word of someone who has clearly gone bat-shit insane? Or do you truly believe that the NPCs have gotten the book and read it themselves to you know hash out any details pertaining to their lives?

Except Baine knows that Magatha poisoned Gorehowl and doesn't hold Garrosh responsible.

"I will expect the same challenge from the son as the father, then," he said.
"You will not have it."
Garrosh frowned, not understanding. Baine continued. "Do not think that I would not enjoy fighting you, Garrosh Hellscream. Whatever was on the blade, yours was the hand that cut down my father. But tauren are not so petty. The true killer was Magatha, not you. My father issued the mak'gora, and the argument between you and he is settled, even if, due to Magatha's treachery, the fight was no fair one.
--The Shattering

Baine must have bumped into the Sha of Amnesia.

[Thimagryn]

And once again do you believe Vol'jin and Baine have read The Shattering? Think real hard before you answer that.

What? Have you read the Shattering? Because half the story is about Baine. And it explains what he's thinking of, what he thinks is going on, and who is to blame for all the events surrounding the death of his father. He is a POV character.