‘Romanian wage slaves threatened with death in Germany’

[Stir]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2266385.stm


Even in 2007 it was know that these people would be exploited. The problem is in the EU that enables this behavior.

But your link doesn't show that, does it?
What is says is:
-Immigration helps drive economic growth, and the EU will be able to work with new member states to tackle organized crime and trafficking.
-Cheaper labour is good for the economies of richer European nations (debatable since it creates unfair competition with our own poverty classes), and it is better for them if companies relocate to Central Europe than to India or China (I don't see the benefits for the company per sé, but for the Central European countries, the benefits of this low-wage thing is huge. It means more people have more money to spend, which means wages must then go up (if the market is properly regulated), causing lower-wage people to become wealthier.
-The richer member states gain more from being members of a large single market than they pay out in transfers to the poorer countries. This is true as well, of course, but is mostly a benefit added in that list to sway wealthier countries into agreeing to letting countries like Romania (which will cost the EU billions of euros) to join anyway. It's an argument meant to show the wealthier member states that they'll be getting at least something back for all the money they're transferring to poorer member states.

Basically: You're just screaming 'Forrinners Dunnit,' and citing texts that could creatively be held to prove your point, but make more sense when actually used to oppose your point.
Face it: 'Forrinners' are helping Romania. I don't know if Forrinners should, mind you, since the EU is already dangerously wobbly, but they are.

[Deleted]

Plus it seems it wasn't really all 'forrinners':

They were recruited in Romania by Romanians. They have to pay recruitment "fees" to those guys in Romania. The CEO of the Spanish Company is Romanian. The local Boss is Romanian. The threats were issued by a Romanian and the "accidents" were hinted to happen in Romania...

Sure, there were other people involved and it takes place all over the EU, however in this case it seems like a Romanian based organized crime ring exploiting their fellow citizens. Of course this is illegal in Germany and the EU but it's not easy to fight, though I'll admit it probably doesn't get the attention it deserves.

However if you think that not being in part of the EU would stop the (Romanian) Mafia from exploiting people, you'd be in for a surprise I bet.

[Cybran]

Basically: You're just screaming 'Forrinners Dunnit,' and citing texts that could creatively be held to prove your point, but make more sense when actually used to oppose your point.
Face it: 'Forrinners' are helping Romania. I don't know if Forrinners should, mind you, since the EU is already dangerously wobbly, but they are.

As I said a million times the EU Funds for Bulgaria and Romania are not absorbed and returned to Brussels. On top of not receiving that money Bulgaria and Romania still pay 380 and 680 million euro to the EU every year for being inside it. Both countries are losing from being in the EU.

When you factor in the losses that the local firms suffer from regulations, taxes, competition from the older countries you see that joining was the biggest mistake both countries have done.

[Stir]

As I said a million times the EU Funds for Bulgaria and Romania are not absorbed and returned to Brussels. On top of not receiving that money Bulgaria and Romania still pay 380 and 680 million euro to the EU every year for being inside it. Both countries are losing from being in the EU.

When you factor in the losses that the local firms suffer from regulations, taxes, competition from the older countries you see that joining was the biggest mistake both countries have done.

You did not say that 'a million times' in this topic, which is the framework of this particular conversation. I did not partake in the topic where you did say that 'a million times,' and therefore, your saying it so, só very often is of absolutely no consequence.
The EU funds not being absorbed, however, is not the EU's fault, now is it? I don't know why that happens, but I'll hazard a guess and say that it might have something to do with the membership fee which the country cannot afford due to being in debts it somehow forgot to disclose prior to joining.
The local firms suffer losses from regulations, taxes and competition? The latter is nonsense; it's everyone else who needs to compete with cheaper Romanian businesses. Unless you're referring to multinational companies such as MediaMarkt or something, to which I would say: They're multinational companies. It's not like a government can say where they can and cannot be.
Regulations? Oh, dear... Local firms suffer because they need to pay minimum wage? Do understand that that money comes back to them in terms of expenditure. People with more money to spend spend more money. This increases until an annual income of roughly 70K euros, after which more money is actually holding the economy back (because of potting up).
Taxes. Of course. Because who needs roads, schools etcetera?

But you know what? I'm another EU citizen. My taxes go to development in countries such as Romania. Now; I think it's all for the best, of course. I'd like to see Romania developing into a fairer country with a better, more stable economy. With a lower class that can afford good housing and mothers don't sell their daughters into sex slavery (sex slavery is a real issue in the Netherlands; Dutch (lower class) prostitutes cannot compete with Romanian sex slaves (who also don't pay income tax), so illegal prostitution is another issue Romania brought here).

What I'm trying to say is: Romania is a corrupt hell hole. Sure; if you're wealthy enough, I suppose, and belong to that middle class of educated, English speaking bourgeoisie, you've got nothing to worry about and you might not like the EU prodding into things. But the things you blame on the EU now are things caused by that same bourgeoisie in Romania. That's what you get for treating your lower class as scum. And that's what we get for you treating your lower class as scum. But worst of all: That's what your lower class gets for you treating them as scum.

[Cairhiin]

What does this have to do with the EU? It's the same as saying "A couple of Romanians stole, and burned Dutch paintings after they were unable to sell them, so all Romanians must be thieves."

[Deleted]

If it's so terrible for Romania, why don't they just leave?

They wouldn't be missed.

---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 12:08 PM ----------

What does this have to do with the EU? It's the same as saying "A couple of Romanians stole, and burned Dutch paintings after they were unable to sell them, so all Romanians must be thieves."

There are always gypsies in my city centre trying to sell me shitty jewellery as well, they must all be beggars!

[Bakis]

There are always gypsies in my city centre trying to sell me shitty jewellery as well, they must all be beggars!

I'm off to the city museum in 5 mins. There is an exhibition on the Romani people there now. On the way there I will bump into 10 beggers from central Europe if not more.
I will blame the EU for that ;(

[Deleted]

As I said a million times the EU Funds for Bulgaria and Romania are not absorbed and returned to Brussels. On top of not receiving that money Bulgaria and Romania still pay 380 and 680 million euro to the EU every year for being inside it. Both countries are losing from being in the EU.

When you factor in the losses that the local firms suffer from regulations, taxes, competition from the older countries you see that joining was the biggest mistake both countries have done.

Of course you should also factor in why EU funds for Romania were frozen: corruption, fraud and poor administrative performance.
http://euobserver.com/regions/119867

So maybe stop whining about those evil "forrriners" and kick your own government/businesses into shape.

[Cybran]

You did not say that 'a million times' in this topic, which is the framework of this particular conversation. I did not partake in the topic where you did say that 'a million times,' and therefore, your saying it so, só very often is of absolutely no consequence.

http://euobserver.com/regions/119867

The EU's €347 billion worth of structural funds - aimed at helping regions, cities and small businesses get better internet connections, clean water plants or better roads - work best in countries that are already well off and not marred by corruption, says a report published last year by Bruegel, a Brussels-based economic think tank.

Confronted with this conclusion, Hahn's spokeswoman Shirin Wheeler on Thursday admitted that having a "decent administrative capacity, that controls the efficient use of funds goes along with having good results."

The Funds are designed to benefit France, Germany, Ireland, Spain and not the new member states.

The local firms suffer losses from regulations, taxes and competition? The latter is nonsense; it's everyone else who needs to compete with cheaper Romanian businesses. Unless you're referring to multinational companies such as MediaMarkt or something, to which I would say: They're multinational companies. It's not like a government can say where they can and cannot be.
Regulations? Oh, dear... Local firms suffer because they need to pay minimum wage? Do understand that that money comes back to them in terms of expenditure.

Regulations for producers of Milk, Eggs, Agriculture, etc. The EU said that firms need at least 1 veterinary and people with 10-15 animals had to kill their livestock and look for work abroad.

http://www.thedairysite.com/articles...new-challenges

A stop to prophylactics subsidies, the imminent closure of over 20,000 farms and palm oil rulings are all due to hit the Bulgarian dairy sector as it gets used to life the European Union.


Bulgarian dairy sector faces an important year which will likely represent a turning point for its future
development. In 2013 all cattle dairy farms should meet EU milk quality requirements. 27,000 farms
may have to close if operational procedures are not upgraded.

Taxes. Of course. Because who needs roads, schools etcetera?

Not such taxes. Additional taxes for green energy, green fuel, alcohol, cigarettes, etc. Our Electricity bills are inflated by 35% due to EU dictated additional costs. Electricity produced in our country is cheaper to buy in Serbia, because they are not in the EU.

But you know what? I'm another EU citizen. My taxes go to development in countries such as Romania. Now; I think it's all for the best, of course. I'd like to see Romania developing into a fairer country with a better, more stable economy. With a lower class that can afford good housing and mothers don't sell their daughters into sex slavery (sex slavery is a real issue in the Netherlands; Dutch (lower class) prostitutes cannot compete with Romanian sex slaves (who also don't pay income tax), so illegal prostitution is another issue Romania brought here).

What I'm trying to say is: Romania is a corrupt hell hole. Sure; if you're wealthy enough, I suppose, and belong to that middle class of educated, English speaking bourgeoisie, you've got nothing to worry about and you might not like the EU prodding into things. But the things you blame on the EU now are things caused by that same bourgeoisie in Romania. That's what you get for treating your lower class as scum. And that's what we get for you treating your lower class as scum. But worst of all: That's what your lower class gets for you treating them as scum.

http://www.euractiv.com/priorities/f...ia-news-514574

In the 2007-2013 EU budget, €19.7 billion was allocated to Romania and €6.9 to Bulgaria. But Romania has been able to absorb, by January 2012, only 4% of these funds, while Bulgaria’s absorption rate is of 19% for the same period.

“These are the lowest absorption rates in the Union of 27 countries,” the French authors write.

I am not Romanian. Your taxes don't reach the Romanian people. We (the new members) would be better off if we never joined.

[Deleted]

http://euobserver.com/regions/119867

The Funds are designed to benefit France, Germany, Ireland, Spain and not the new member states.

So now the fact that the Romanian government does a poor job requesting EU resources and pretty much all of it never reaches the intended recipients due to corruption and fraud is the fault of the EU as well? Wow.

Would the new members be better off without joining the EU? I seriously doubt it but of course I can't prove it. I am however quite certain people then would complain about being exploited by not being allowed into the EU...

[Cybran]

So now the fact that the Romanian government does a poor job requesting EU resources and pretty much all of it never reaches the intended recipients due to corruption and fraud is the fault of the EU as well? Wow.

The reason money is not absorbed is the insane bureaucracy needed to apply for funding.

If I wanted to apply for financing to make my house energy efficient I would need months and tens of thousands of euro for a project. After that I have to wait until march next year for my project to be approved then use my own money to fix my house and hope that someday the EU will refinance 75% of my money. This is why people and Mayors don't bother applying for EU money. No one wants to deal with such bullshit.

Would the new members be better off without joining the EU? I seriously doubt it but of course I can't prove it. I am however quite certain people then would complain about being exploited by not being allowed into the EU...

We would be much better if We had never joined.

[Authary]

The reason money is not absorbed is the insane bureaucracy needed to apply for funding.

If I wanted to apply for financing to make my house energy efficient I would need months and tens of thousands of euro for a project. After that I have to wait until march next year for my project to be approved then use my own money to fix my house and hope that someday the EU will refinance 75% of my money. This is why people and Mayors don't bother applying for EU money. No one wants to deal with such bullshit.

Oh noes, the EU gives you money for your house but you have to do some paperwork !

Bad, bad EU.

[Ravenblade]

[...]
http://www.euractiv.com/priorities/f...ia-news-514574

Funny. I was about to quote the same article. I know you are selectively quoting but the article titles the whole thing as "missed opportunity [by Bulgaria and Romania]" and they blame a lot of things including lack of experience and fraudulent practices. They are also saying that you quite literally still in post-communist transition phase and struggling to come to terms with it.

“The difficulty of absorption of EU funds of Bulgaria and Romania brings to mind that in the reconstruction of a state, everything goes upfront: it is because the rule of law is not achieved that the administrative and judiciary mechanisms remain unreliable, and that the funds are poorly absorbed. And while they are poorly absorbed, they don’t bring the expected results,” the senators write.

“From this mission the participants draw the conclusion that Bulgaria and Romania are still in transition phase and struggle to put in place in an irreversible way a state, based on the rule of law.”

I am not Romanian. Your taxes don't reach the Romanian people. We (the new members) would be better off if we never joined.

Then why are you starting the whole debate upside down? You want to criticize that? Start with how they got the idea to join the EU would be good for them despite the negative issues being laid out and available for anyone to read. It would involve some self-criticism though and for once abstaining from teutophobic blames.

[Slant]

Wow, that article is totally representative for every european country and every situation. I knew it, we're all just wage slaves. Or... perhaps it's just another criminal activity that gets shut down and punished with jail as soon as authorities get wind of it. We can of course dramatise it, because heck, it's summer and fuck all is happening elsewhere.

I suggest we start rioting now and start a revolution! :P

Btw, General Off-Topic forum is a place for weird topics, isn't it? 8 out of 10 topics here are utterly crazy.

[Deleted]

About the foreigners being abused, not really surprised, they're desperate and the mafia abuses their desperation. This is an organized crime problem, not quite a problem because the EU exists and we're in it. That said, I am sad to see some comments in this thread, calling us thieves and beggars... this shows what education some people on these forums have.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why so many Romanian workers get exploited like that?
Here's a hint: Because the Romanian poverty class is exceptionally large. Romania is, for many members of its populace, a shit-hole, and those poor workers are left with no other choice than to enter into shady, abusive and exploitative business 'agreements.'

So maybe if you want to keep your 'Forrinners Dunnit' stance a bit more fairly, you might want to take a look at the stuff happening inside your borders.

Yea, ok, look. Did you ever think that it's hard to fix corruption when there's some things always preventing you. For example, our dear president, a corrupt horrible person. I won't go into detail on why he was a communist party member or how he sold our fleet and how all his relatives seem to have gotten rich all the sudden after he got president (strange coincidence, huh?) but what I will say is that over 80% of the people that came to vote when we wanted to make him leave voted for him to leave. But he went and cried to Merkel and then the EU came and said we're trying a coup! So this is a perfect example of how the EU stopped the people's try to get rid of the corruption. I like the EU, but some of the aspects of it are horrendous, and this is one, the friendships leaders make with one another and then the strong ones try to keep the stupid ones in power if they're in their favour ignoring if they are good for their people.

Wow, that's dumb. I wonder why that tread got locked :P

Exploits like this are usually organized for people who cannot speak the language of the foreign country. They are easy prey because they don't know the law and cannot get help from local authorities. Also, it's usually organized by their own fellow countrymen. I know this phenomenon very well, lots of hungarians who cannot speak german are hired by hungarians living in germany and they get ripped off in the end. I bet it's the same in romania as well.

This is correct, it happens to Romanians too.

[Cybran]

Wow, that article is totally representative for every european country and every situation. I knew it, we're all just wage slaves. Or... perhaps it's just another criminal activity that gets shut down and punished with jail as soon as authorities get wind of it. We can of course dramatise it, because heck, it's summer and fuck all is happening elsewhere.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-dev...our-conditions

According to ILO figures (pdf), 70% of the 880,000 people identified as being in forced labour conditions are in forms of labour exploitation, with a further 270,000 people estimated to be victims of sexual exploitation.

In April this year the European Commission launched a new report (pdf) showing that, despite the introduction of new anti-trafficking directives across the EU, the numbers of identified trafficked people rose by 18% between 2008-10. Over the same period, the number of convictions for human trafficking fell by 13%.

The report also revealed that more than 60% of those trafficked or in forced labour conditions were from EU member states, most frequently Romania or Bulgaria.

Over a million people are exploited in Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, etc. This is not a minor issue. This is extremely serious.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-dev...our-conditions



Over a million people are exploited in Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, etc. This is not a minor issue. This is extremely serious.

And most, if not all of those Mafia rings are run by individuals (I'm not going to insult the human race by calling these criminals "people") from guess where? Hungary and Romania. Guess where the people are recruited? Hungary and Romania. Guess whose governments should crack down on these Mafia groups? Hungary and Romania. Guess whose governments ARE NOT cracking down on those Mafia groups because they extremely corrupt? Hungary and Romania. Who can (in theory) get those governments to do something? The citizens of Hungary and Romania.

[Bakis]

And most, if not all of those Mafia rings are run by individuals (I'm not going to insult the human race by calling these criminals "people") from guess where? Hungary and Romania. Guess where the people are recruited? Hungary and Romania. Guess whose governments should crack down on these Mafia groups? Hungary and Romania. Guess whose governments ARE NOT cracking down on those Mafia groups because they extremely? Hungary and Romania. Who can (in theory) get those governments to do something? The citizens of Hungary and Romania.

Dont bring logic or truth to someone so eager to play the victim card.
No matter what it will always be the fault of the EU to the full extent and noone else.

[Stir]

Yea, ok, look. Did you ever think that it's hard to fix corruption when there's some things always preventing you. For example, our dear president, a corrupt horrible person. I won't go into detail on why he was a communist party member or how he sold our fleet and how all his relatives seem to have gotten rich all the sudden after he got president (strange coincidence, huh?) but what I will say is that over 80% of the people that came to vote when we wanted to make him leave voted for him to leave. But he went and cried to Merkel and then the EU came and said we're trying a coup! So this is a perfect example of how the EU stopped the people's try to get rid of the corruption. I like the EU, but some of the aspects of it are horrendous, and this is one, the friendships leaders make with one another and then the strong ones try to keep the stupid ones in power if they're in their favour ignoring if they are good for their people.

My point was more along the lines of 'stop blaming everything on the EU.'
Now; I'll happily believe that 80% of the populace voted against the current president. And I'll even believe that Merkel supported that same president because it would serve her own interests.
What I do not agree with is the notion that the EU as a whole institutionalizes the abuse of Romanian (and other eastern European) workers. Especially not since that same abuse (not the workers, mind; the abuse of those workers) is causing havoc in other economies as well.

[Ravenblade]

Over a million people are exploited in Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, etc. This is not a minor issue. This is extremely serious.

France, Germany, Italy, Ireland, Latvia, the Netherlands, Poland, Spain and Sweden. Denmark is nowhere mentioned in this article.