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  1. #261
    but did you include the reduced time inside proving grounds given from more haste as opposed to mastery into your calculations into your wrath, moonfire, and/or cat dps or if you're running HotW?

    jk :^)

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Jordaen View Post
    The 561 gloves you looted have two yellow sockets and a crap ton of Crit. Crit is technically a resto druid's worst stat. The tier gloves have two red slots and a lot of haste. This, on top of the ~2% increase to healing the t164p gives you, I would strongly recommend you toss the 561 gloves and take your four piece. The tier gloves will also help you reach the 13163 haste break point (if you're going for it).
    Thank you very much. I haven't tried the 13163 break point yet, because we often lack the 5% haste buff. I'll try this too.
    How much mastery can I afford to lose when I try to reach 13163 ?
    Thank you very much.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by insanedruid View Post
    What I say is that base on the math the benefit of the 6.6K breakpoint is the same if you spec into SotF or not.(base on my assumption)
    It should be noted that this is not entirely true. If you use SotF, Wild Growth is going to be a bigger part of your total healing, meaning you'll gain more benefit from the 6.6k haste breakpoint. The exact value of the breakpoint is going to depend on your own spell breakdown, which can vary a lot.

    For example, compare your numbers to my own numbers for Norushen 10H from yesterday:
    Quote Originally Posted by insanedruid View Post
    Below are the percentage of heal done by spells:
    WG: 11.8%
    LB: 12.1%
    EFFLO: 21.1%
    My percentages on the same fight:
    WG: 20.5%
    LB: 5.3% (wasn't really paying attention and had a terrible uptime)
    Efflo: 20.5%

    Note that I'm at 13k haste, so my numbers aren't really applicable to this situation, but my point is that everyone will have to use their own breakdowns if they want good results.

    Quote Originally Posted by insanedruid View Post
    Even in some situitions where the 6.6K build is better it's still just a tiny increase.
    Agreed. Norushen heroic is a very special case. That fight has a ludicrous amount of steadily incoming damage to the whole raid, which heavily favors spells like Efflorescence and Wild Growth, which happen to scale well with haste. On most fights you'll use Rejuvenation much more, and it doesn't benefit from haste at all between 3k and 13k.
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  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Just wondering what other Tailor Resto Druids are doing in terms of cloak enchant, Lightweave or Darkweave and how does it effect your stat choices? I'm personally using Darkweave and then setting my Spirit 500 below what I usually would. AMR suggests to use Lightweave but I'm not actually sure if that's better to use or if it just defaults to that, upon first glance it doesn't seem good since you cannot control when it procs so it may be completely wasted whereas the Spirit proc is always going to be useful.
    Just bumping this question, it appears to have been lost quite quickly on the previous page. Any help appreciated.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Just bumping this question, it appears to have been lost quite quickly on the previous page. Any help appreciated.
    Lightweave is technically better, as 1 intellect is worth much more than 1 spirit. Darkglow is more predictable than Lightweave, though, so your preference may depend on the fight. On a bursty fight like Garrosh, Lightweave is pretty likely to proc at a time when you don't have all that much use for it, making Darkglow look much better in comparison. However, Lightweave is better on a more constant fight like heroic Norushen when you always have plenty of people to heal.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Just bumping this question, it appears to have been lost quite quickly on the previous page. Any help appreciated.
    I prefer using darkglow as a healer in general because regen is a stat that you can actually average with results that matter. Throughput procs are rarely worth as much as their averaged out value so I prefer to enchant the regen proc and drop spirit into other stats.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by bargio View Post
    Thank you very much. I haven't tried the 13163 break point yet, because we often lack the 5% haste buff. I'll try this too.
    How much mastery can I afford to lose when I try to reach 13163 ?
    Thank you very much.
    Don't worry about dropping any amount of mastery to reach the haste cap, what you need to watch is losing too much spirit/breaking too many gem slot bonuses.

    However 13k haste without the 5% buff is really hurting yourself, you should try and get that nailed down if you can (if you have a hunter the 5% haste buff is usually one of the most important due to factors like these).

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by adynn View Post
    However 13k haste without the 5% buff is really hurting yourself...
    Even worse, without the 5% haste buff that 13k haste is pretty much useless. You'll have given up a truckload of mastery for basically nothing. Without the haste buff, you don't get the next Rejuvenation tick until 15974 haste. You'll get extra ticks of some other stuff, but without the extra Rejuvenation tick it's not worth the loss of other stats.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  9. #269
    Here is the math I came up with insanedruid, Alltat, and Thalur - this clearly shows that as far as WG is concerned, 13168 > 6652 > 4377 haste. Keep in mind that most of the haste used to get to 6652 was not at the expense of mastery. None of my gems are haste gems, none of my reforges are mastery -> haste, and none of my enchants are haste enchants. I welcome you to explain why sitting at 4377 haste is better than going for 6652, regardless of whether you use SoTF or not.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...druid/advanced

    WG Buffed + Harmony 6652 HR - as close as I could get (HR 6652, MR 11024)
    Avg Tick: 8129
    HPC (Glyphed): 439006
    HPC (no glyph): 365838
    SoTF HPC (glyphed): 829233
    SoTF HPC (no glyph): 691027

    WG Buffed + Harmony 3043 HR - as close as I could get (HR 4377, MR 12939)
    AVG Tick: 8373
    HPC (Glyphed): 401937
    HPC (no glyph): 334947
    SoTF HPC (Glyphed): 803873
    SoTF HPC (No Glyph): 669894

    WG Buffed + Harmony 13168 HR - as close as I could get (HR 13168, MR 4724)
    AVG Tick: 7327
    HPC (Glyphed): 439618
    HPC (no glyph): 366349
    SoTF HPC (glyphed): 835275
    SoTF HOC (no glyph): 696062

    So in my case and many other druids out there like me sitting inbetween t15 and t16 gear, 6652 is definitely worth going for, however 13168 was not worth chasing because I would lose way too much mastery (6300 or 23%) going from 6652 to 13168 for a minimal increase to my heals, being a 25 man raider - that 23% mastery is more of a healing increase than the 13k HBP would net me.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    Here is the math I came up with insanedruid, Alltat, and Thalur - this clearly shows that as far as WG is concerned, 13168 > 6652 > 4377 haste. Keep in mind that most of the haste used to get to 6652 was not at the expense of mastery. None of my gems are haste gems, none of my reforges are mastery -> haste, and none of my enchants are haste enchants. I welcome you to explain why sitting at 4377 haste is better than going for 6652, regardless of whether you use SoTF or not.
    Okay, so what you say is that WG heals more when you have 6652 haste than when you have 4377 haste. This is totally unsurprising, as you got another tick for it. However, you completely forgot to take into account what you lose when you go for that haste breakpoint. Let me finish your math for you (comparing 4377 and 6652 haste ratings.)

    So what you showed is that your WG healing is increased by about 9% (with Glyph) or 3% (with SotF and Glyph). Looking over my last logs, WG is about 15% of my healing on average. So my overall healing would be increased by 1.35% (or 0.45% with SotF).

    What I lose is 1915 mastery that would increae my healing from Rejuvenation by about 4%. Since Rejuv is about 30-35% of my healing, this would increase my overall healing by roughly 1.2 - 1.4%. So without SotF, the gain from WG should average out the loss from Rejuv. With SotF, you would sacrifice a lot of healing (i.e. 4377 haste is way better).

    Note that I only compared WG to Rejuv. While the haste vs. mastery trade should not affect Efflo and LB much (slightly faster ticks with slighly less healing), you lose more healing on Tranquility and all cast-time spells. So even though these were all pretty rough calculations, it should be clear that 4377 haste is better than 6652.

    And if you do the same calculations for 13k vs. 3k haste (assuming all haste came from mastery), you will find that 13k haste is better no matter how much mastery you would have left (no matter what raid size).

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by adynn View Post
    Don't worry about dropping any amount of mastery to reach the haste cap, what you need to watch is losing too much spirit/breaking too many gem slot bonuses.

    However 13k haste without the 5% buff is really hurting yourself, you should try and get that nailed down if you can (if you have a hunter the 5% haste buff is usually one of the most important due to factors like these).
    I tried to reforge and reached only 9 k. I didn't try to change gloves/boots enchant and I have only two yellow sockets if I remember correctly.

    Thank you for your help. I think I'll stay at 5320 haste (the 3043 breakpoint without 5% haste) until I get other gear.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    ...this clearly shows that as far as WG is concerned, 13168 > 6652 > 4377 haste.
    Sure, but was that ever in question? Yes, going for 6652 will increase the healing done by your Wild Growth. It will also increase the healing done by your Efflorescence and Lifebloom. Aside from that if will reduce the healing done by every other spell in your arsenal (except Ysera's Gift, which is tied to your health). The question is whether or not going for the 6652 haste cap increases your total healing done. Even in the absolutely best possible case specced for SotF on the most Wild Growth-friendly fight in the entire tier, WG shouldn't account for more than ~20% of your total healing. Unless you're doing something odd, Rejuvenation should be your top healing spell and it doesn't benefit from haste at all between 3k and 13k.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    Sure, but was that ever in question? Yes, going for 6652 will increase the healing done by your Wild Growth. It will also increase the healing done by your Efflorescence and Lifebloom. Aside from that if will reduce the healing done by every other spell in your arsenal (except Ysera's Gift, which is tied to your health). The question is whether or not going for the 6652 haste cap increases your total healing done. Even in the absolutely best possible case specced for SotF on the most Wild Growth-friendly fight in the entire tier, WG shouldn't account for more than ~20% of your total healing. Unless you're doing something odd, Rejuvenation should be your top healing spell and it doesn't benefit from haste at all between 3k and 13k.
    Not to mention when you add in the loss of mastery/crit to get the 6652 it takes away from the gain you get, to the point where it almost cancels it out while also nerfing all other spells. 6652 just really not worth it this entire xpac.

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    So in my case and many other druids out there like me sitting inbetween t15 and t16 gear, 6652 is definitely worth going for, however 13168 was not worth chasing because I would lose way too much mastery (6300 or 23%) going from 6652 to 13168 for a minimal increase to my heals, being a 25 man raider - that 23% mastery is more of a healing increase than the 13k HBP would net me.
    Stop spreading misinformation.

    There *is* a possibility that you might want to go for 6652 sometimes, but it relies on the premise that you have too much haste to get down near 3k and not enough to get to 13k. This is a very, very small subset of players, even for your gear which is close to falling into that category it's still slightly better to go mastery (fyi you still haven't justified where you're getting the mana from for extra rejuvs due to the reduced gcd). It seems pretty clear that your 6k haste bp only offers competitive healing when you are using extra rejuvs (but as I said the 4k/mastery build still seems to come out on top).

    Quote Originally Posted by bargio View Post
    I tried to reforge and reached only 9 k. I didn't try to change gloves/boots enchant and I have only two yellow sockets if I remember correctly.

    Thank you for your help. I think I'll stay at 5320 haste (the 3043 breakpoint without 5% haste) until I get other gear.
    FYI next time simply use askmrrobot, just make sure you set your spirit soft cap to a level you're comfortable with and choose the 13k haste bp.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    Glyphed Regrowth will always heal for more than Healing Touch if you factor in Living Seed. While glyphed RG doesn't scale with your crit rating, it does scale with the crit multiplier bonus from the Prismatic Prison of Pride. Since HT triggers the global cooldown even at five stacks of Sage Mender, RG will always do higher HPS than HT. Sage Mender can make HT more mana efficient than RG and the spell being instant has obvious utility, but it'll still heal for less.

    Also note that Glyph of Healing Touch is fairly useless now that Swiftmend doesn't proc Efflorescence anymore. Without SotF there's not much point in being able to use it slightly more often, and with SotF you'll usually be saving Swiftmend until WG is about to come off cooldown anyway.
    At ~22% Crit (closer to 23% with a Prismatic Prison of Pride) Healing Touch is more average Healing than Gylphed Regrowth including seeds for both. However, unglyphed Regrowth, if you don't penalize its HoT portion in any way, will always do more average healing than Healing Touch and more healing than Glyphed Regrowth at ~17% Crit. The degree to which this matters is pretty small because Regrowth and Healing Touch use is heavily prescribed by Omen of Clarity and Sagemender stacks and whether you want to use the Regrowth glyph or not should be based on the damage profile of the fight rather than minor differences in numbers.

    Glyph of Healing Touch now reduces the CD of Nature's Swiftness by 3 secs when you cast Healing Touch. It's certainly not an amazing glyph, but there are situations where it might be optimal in 10-man raiding.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Skagasm View Post
    Glyph of Healing Touch now reduces the CD of Nature's Swiftness by 3 secs when you cast Healing Touch. It's certainly not an amazing glyph, but there are situations where it might be optimal in 10-man raiding.
    I use the healing touch glyph in 10 man on heroic dark shamans, healing the Haroom group. Since there's four of us up there, no need for the glyph of WG, on top of the fact that I don't take SotF for it either. I get a fair amount of sagemender stacks (lots of genesis!) but this is the only fight that I'd ever use it on.
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  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by adynn View Post
    Stop spreading misinformation.

    There *is* a possibility that you might want to go for 6652 sometimes, but it relies on the premise that you have too much haste to get down near 3k and not enough to get to 13k. This is a very, very small subset of players, even for your gear which is close to falling into that category it's still slightly better to go mastery (fyi you still haven't justified where you're getting the mana from for extra rejuvs due to the reduced gcd). It seems pretty clear that your 6k haste bp only offers competitive healing when you are using extra rejuvs (but as I said the 4k/mastery build still seems to come out on top).



    FYI next time simply use askmrrobot, just make sure you set your spirit soft cap to a level you're comfortable with and choose the 13k haste bp.
    Ok, I feel like I am talking in circles here - so lets review:
    A.) I did not base my assumption that 6652 is better just because of the benefits of 1 spell, I used one spell only as an example and people fixated on that.
    B.) Yes I lose healing from rejuv by losing mastery.
    C.) The overall healing I lose from rejuv does not outweigh the net increase in overall healing I get when you factor in all the other HoTs that are given extra ticks or have their tick speed reduced by 20-60%.
    D.) My math does not include healing from direct heals - however they only account for 4-6% of my healing so whatever small increase I get from those is going to be minimal overall.
    E.) My math does not include the benefit of a reduced GCD, or a reduced cast time to direct heals (which with the 4pt16 is a non-issue) - or in your case adynn, the downside to a reduced GCD?

    Let me elaborate on these bullet points. I made my assumption that 6652 is better based on the benefits given to the HoTs that contribute 71.7% of my healing, not just 30%. Basing your gear strategy by looking at only one spell is foolish. Yes Rejuv does a significant chunk of that 71.7%, but the other 41.7% of your HoTs at the end of the day still contribute more. If you can get an increase to the other 41.7% of your healing done and only take a slight hit (less than a 10th of a percent loss in overall healing done by that spell) to the one doing 30%, Even thought I am taking a -0.08% in my overall healing done by Rejuv by favoring the 6652 build, I still end up with a 0.11% increase to my healing done overall when Efflo, WG, LB, Tranq, and WG are also factored in.

    Like I said before - 6652 is not an optimal build by any stretch of the imagination. I am not saying that you are going to see a significant increase in your heals by going for 6652, you won't. At the end of the day, a 0.11% increase to your total healing done isn't going to make or break progression for your raid. I am not stating to blindly get the 6652 HBP without making sure it is better to stay where you are with haste. I am merely stating that if the circumstances are such where you cannot get down to 3043, and you don't have enough haste to reach 13k, 6652 is an acceptable stopgap if you can reach it without sacrificing mastery to the point it becomes a loss until you can find the pieces needed to either get back down closer 3043 or get to 13163. Why this turned into "6652 is Satan, REPENT SINNER!!" I have no idea.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skagasm View Post
    At ~22% Crit (closer to 23% with a Prismatic Prison of Pride) Healing Touch is more average Healing than Gylphed Regrowth including seeds for both.
    If you're casting a big fast emergency heal, average healing done isn't really your main concern. For life-saving heals, the relevant factor is how much healing you can reliably deliver. In that regard, glyphed Regrowth is preferable to Healing Touch. That's also the main selling point of the Regrowth glyph: your RG would crit most of the time anyway, but the glyph eliminates the randomness and the possibility that it won't crit when you need it the most.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    C.) The overall healing I lose from rejuv does not outweigh the net increase in overall healing I get when you factor in all the other HoTs that are given extra ticks or have their tick speed reduced by 20-60%.
    Sorry did you provide the math on how the lost from rejuv does not outweigh the gain?

    Again all your post are just telling us the 6.6K bp will increase you throughput of WG. This is what everybody already knows.
    What everybody wants to tell you is that even the 6.6K bp will increase the throughput of WG/LB/Efflo, the benefit does not out weight the lost of the mastery.
    You have to see the whole picture.

    I used a scenario that favors the haste build WG/LB/EFFLO did 45% of the total healing
    But still I got the result that the 6.6K bp is still slightly weaker than the 4K haste build.

    Your post said that the 6.6K bp is a huge HPS increase which should not be ignored.
    What I wanted to tell you when I first replied your post was that it may be a gain in some cases but even if it is the gain will be tiny.
    And in most cases the 6.6K bp will be a slight HPS lost.

    If you want to prove that you are right at least you have to provide the math on a sensible scenario containing the full picture. Not just how the 6.6K breakpoint increases the WG healing.
    Last edited by insanedruid; 2013-11-24 at 09:14 AM.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by insanedruid View Post
    Your post said that the 6.6K bp is a huge HPS increase which should not be ignored.
    What I wanted to tell you when I first replied your post was that it may be a gain in some cases but even if it is the gain will be tiny.
    And in most cases the 6.6K bp will be a slight HPS lost.

    If you want to prove that you are right at least you have to provide the math on a sensible scenario containing the full picture. Not just how the 6.6K breakpoint increases the WG healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    Like I said before - 6652 is not an optimal build by any stretch of the imagination. I am not saying that you are going to see a significant increase in your heals by going for 6652, you won't. At the end of the day, a 0.11% increase to your total healing done isn't going to make or break progression for your raid. I am not stating to blindly get the 6652 HBP without making sure it is better to stay where you are with haste. I am merely stating that if the circumstances are such where you cannot get down to 3043, and you don't have enough haste to reach 13k, 6652 is an acceptable stopgap if you can reach it without sacrificing mastery to the point it becomes a loss until you can find the pieces needed to either get back down closer 3043 or get to 13163.
    Again I am talking in circles posting the same thing over and over because people are too lazy to read the entirety of my posts. If you aren't going to read the entire posts, and you are going to throw words in my mouth like "huge HPS increase", I am done replying to you. We both AGREE on the same thing. There is no math needed. If you doubt that I know what I am talking about, look my druids up. Their numbers speak for themselves.

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