Healing in Raid Finder completely lacks coherence and a sense of self worth.

[Deleted]

It's a mess of a ton of healers, healing low damage on random people randomly stepping into fire, without anyone knowing what anyone is healing and how he is doing it. The result is that you have little room to feel you are doing anything important, barring the exception of an overgeared healer carrying just dinged healers but that's a nonstarter since there's no reason being in the raid.

The thing is, you can't say "raid finder is like that for all roles" because tanks can have a limited sense of self worth and a feel they control the action in a sense just as they always do, and the dpses, can often properly can go on a dps race. Healing in raid finder feels like there is no race, just a mess that it will be 90% of the time an overheal-fest and 10% of the time 0 good healers or 1 overgeared one doing all the work, that he shouldn't be in there anyway with that gear.

I get sense this mess, this absolute mess in 25man raiding that lacks proper coordination, is one of the reasons that the only serious raiding tier is going strictly 20man only. "Those extra 5" always seemed useless. 10man is small and 15 seems fine so something between 15-20 seems optimal and even raid finder may benefit from something like that.

[Volibear]

But raid finder IS like that for all roles.
I was gearing my alt DK tank through LFR, and almost every OT I had in SoO LFR had no idea of any tank mechanics, yet was still able to tank efficiently enough to get over the line.
LFR can be completed as long as ~25% of the group has any idea of mechanics.

[Socialhealer]

I get sense this mess, this absolute mess in 25man raiding that lacks proper coordination, is one of the reasons that the only serious raiding tier is going strictly 20man only. "Those extra 5" always seemed useless. 10man is small and 15 seems fine so something between 15-20 seems optimal and even raid finder may benefit from something like that.

judging 25man raiding by LFR standards saying it requires no coordination, is like saying 5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

more people = more coordination.

[Amerrol]

WTF did I just read?

[Herecius]

5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

I fucking love you.

Seriously though, LFR is a clusterfuck. The blind leading the blind, off a cliff, but it's ok because at the bottom of the cliff there are plenty of pillows and soft things to make sure you don't die anyways. That's just how it is, and that's ok. That's LFR's thing, that's its niche. Comparing it to any kind of actual, organized raiding, be it 10, 25, or 20 or anything in between, is an exercise in futility.

[Volibear]

WTF did I just read?

In short, this. ^

[Deleted]

judging 25man raiding by LFR standards saying it requires no coordination, is like saying 5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

more people = more coordination.

That paragraph you quoted wasn't derived from raid finder. It was an afterthought. In heroic and normal raiding, 10man always felt small but too coherent and 25man always felt like up to 20 people can communicate very robustly but it feels like the 5 extra aren't that much needed to improve it.

I think the 20man size is a very good idea. My original theory called for ~17man because that's around a middle ground, but I guess we can't have non-round numbers for the kids.

[Volibear]

That paragraph you quoted wasn't derived from raid finder. It was an afterthought. In heroic and normal raiding, 10man always felt small but too coherent and 25man always felt like up to 20 people can communicate very robustly but it feels like the 5 extra aren't that much needed to improve it.

I think the 20man size is a very good idea. My original theory called for ~17man because that's around a middle ground, but I guess we can't have non-round numbers for the kids.

From the perspective of a 25man heroic raider;
25man IS coordinated. The only difference between 10man and 25man is how many people are shouting through Mumble/TS/Vent.

[whywhatwhowhenhow]

I agree. I hate healing 25 man raids, no matter what difficulty. It feels too messy. It's not as bad if your designated tank healer, but other than that I much prefer a smaller group to heal.

[Deleted]

From the perspective of a 25man heroic raider;
25man IS coordinated. The only difference between 10man and 25man is how many people are shouting through Mumble/TS/Vent.

They can be coordinated, but it usually takes the form of a "crowd" that is being lead by a very concise leadership of up to 4 people. 10man raiding's beauty was that it can feel, in some good guilds, that everyone is sort-of a leader, without taking anything away from coordination, even though 10man does feel too small and boring sometimes. I think bigger than 10man is a good idea but go past 20 and you make a "crowd" of a team.

There may be a reason very few sports have more than 10 to 15 players in a team.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

No shit, everything in LFR is a joke.

[toychristopher]

I agree. I hate healing 25 man raids, no matter what difficulty. It feels too messy. It's not as bad if your designated tank healer, but other than that I much prefer a smaller group to heal.

I agree. In fact in general I don't like healing with more than one other healer. Heal sniping is so annoying but it's difficult to coordinate and prevent it.

I like how it is in FFXIV, because in a raid the UI forces you to focus on your own party. You can heal the other raid members if you specifically target them, but aoe effects are only on your party. This keeps healing fun and stops it from feeling like a chaotic mess when you are in a large group.

I agree that healing in raid find is especially bad. Most fights can probably be solo healed or two healed. Unlike DPS, where you really never have enough, that means that a lot of healers have absolutely nothing to heal, which means nothing to do since healers have practically no DPS capabilities so they can't even help out with that.

[FiveOneTwo]

I get sense this mess, this absolute mess in 25man raiding that lacks proper coordination, is one of the reasons that the only serious raiding tier is going strictly 20man only. "Those extra 5" always seemed useless. 10man is small and 15 seems fine so something between 15-20 seems optimal and even raid finder may benefit from something like that.

I'd say there's almost no question that the raid finder format would benefit MASSIVELY from being changed to a 10 or 15 man size

-More player visibility could encourage people to contribute more as problems would be identified faster-and poor performance from an individual would be more noticeable
-it would be much easier to coordinate or assign specific tasks allowing for more complex mechanics that are often removed or made insignificant in LFR currently
-a stronger sense of personal contribution feels better for everyone in general.

Unfortunately, for all of its benefits, it will probably never happen due to already very long queue times for damage dealers being literally doubled as a result. It's kind of a shame really.

[MasterHamster]

25man healing in general is just an endless smart- or groupheal whack-a-mole

[Sqeen]

judging 25man raiding by LFR standards saying it requires no coordination, is like saying 5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

you Sir just won the internet!

[ACES]

Take "Healing in" out of the title and you've got it.

[Sansnom]

I get sense this mess, this absolute mess in 25man raiding that lacks proper coordination, is one of the reasons that the only serious raiding tier is going strictly 20man only. "Those extra 5" always seemed useless. 10man is small and 15 seems fine so something between 15-20 seems optimal and even raid finder may benefit from something like that.

So, only 20 man, ie Mythic, is serious raiding. And all the others, LFR, Normal, Heroic, are what?

Healing I find is inversely proportional to the group. The better the group, the less job a healer has to do. As people outgear content, the healers jobs gets easier and easier. At start however, it is probably the most taxing.

There has always been argued if 10 is harder or easier 25. Depending on the encounter, one is harder than the other. In general, losing a member is more serious in 10 than 25. In encounter where movement and separation is required, 25 is harder, more people in the same amount of space.

LFR was designed for random groups where co-ordination is at a minimal. If the group has one or more heroic raider, then this person can carry the whole raid most of time. It happens.

[rda]

Obligatory:

It's going to be better in WoD!! They say so!

[Amerissis]

I get sense this mess, this absolute mess in 25man raiding that lacks proper coordination

That's your problem then, isn't it? Heroic 25 man raiding has plenty of coordination, or you wouldn't be downing a boss. Healers coordinate who heals who, to minimize overhealing and maximize throughput. Obviously this is not the case in LFR, but that's not the point of LFR.

So, I'm not sure what you mean. And saying that 5 people feel useless in any given group is just personal opinion. No one would be downing 25 man bosses with 20 man before they are severely overgeared, so I guess those 5 people are useful too... You prefer 20 man, others prefer 5, 10, 15, 25, 40 or 200. No one is useless, as the content is tuned for the amount of people that should be in the raid.

[Deleted]

I actually don't prefer 20man. I think something between 15 and 17 would be optimal to both not be too small or too overcrowded, but I guess blizzard wants round numbers for the kids. Also, notice almost all major sports have no more than that kind of players, and there's a reason.