Lore Interview with Dave Kosak

[Talen]

Certainly sounds like you're taking it personally.

Heres the thing...

Between the WC RTS games and WOW until LK, Blizzard did a great job in getting people to invest in the various factions. To make them care what happens. To make them want to see what happens next. Granted, people didn't have much faction pride in the Alliance, but hey still cared.

Sure...they are pixels in a game - but they are OUR pixels in OUR game.

Since LK? Blizzard done a great job in destroying that sense, for the Alliance at least. And Alliance faction pride was never that high to begin with. Alliance players play the game...and they see loss after loss. They get to see important quests and stories from Vanilla either removed or retconned for no good reason. Yes - the Alliance were denied even their vanilla victories - and what sort of message does that send to Alliance players? That giving the Horde a generic Hunter trainer is more important than giving them a sense of faction pride. They see their faction being depicted as idiots. As soft touches. They get to see losses not through clever tactics on the Hordes part, but through the use of stupid, idiotic Deus Ex Machinas. They get to see their faction treated not as a serious player, but as a joke. They get to see the Alliance snatch defeat from the jaws of victory time after time after time.

And then they see what the Horde got. Not only the victories, but the sense of pride. The sense of polish in the quests and stories. There were no cheesy CSI rip offs for the Horde. There were no sudden unexplained reversals that resulted in idiotic defeats. They got to win, they got to do it in style, they got a high polished and developed storyline, interaction with their faction leaders and they got to stick two fingers up to the Alliance whilst doing so.

Alliance players get told - Sorry, we ran out of time so we couldn't give you the experience we wanted you to have. Here, have a cookie.

So, yes...there is a bit of jealousy there. But that's also because players cared about their faction. And noone likes to see their faction getting the short end of the stick. Especially in game where BOTH sides are expected to get equal development and attention.

Yes - we all know about Vanilla. Big secret? That doesn't change a thing. Blizzard messed up with cataclysm, it messed up big style, it alienated a lot of Alliance players and its refusal or inability to correct that has brought us to the current situation. The Horde problems with Vanilla were as nothing compared with what the Alliance are going through now.

The Alliance reaction is understandable. They get involvement but no progression, no development, no story of their own. They get a substandard poorly developed set of quests. Blizzard so ignored the Alliance story because "they don't need one" that they end up sabotaging their own questlines. They simply ended up reinforcing the notion that the Alliance aren't worth Blizzards time or effort.

EJL

[seije]

Durotar is also invaded by the Alliance. It's the only starting zone that a race have to deal directly with the other faction attacks.

Belves, Draenei, Worgen.

[Wyrt]

Durotar is also invaded by the Alliance. It's the only starting zone that a race have to deal directly with the other faction attacks.

How the hell did you miss Gilneas?

[Combatbutler]

Oh would you look at that pointless bickering yet again. You can argue all day about blizzard bias and it won't change a thing, except for you getting riled up about. If you want to adress the problems use the official forums, where blizz might actually read it.

[Deleted]

Belves, Draenei, Worgen.

How the hell did you miss Gilneas?

Again, starting zone, as the Valley of Trials. The Blood Elves deals with Wretched on their starting zone, the Draenei with Kael's Blood Elves and the Worgen aren't Alliance.

The Valley of Trials is the only direct Horde/Alliance conflict in all the starting zones.

EDIT: None of those three races were part of a main faction at the beginning of the game, to be correct.

[Deleted]

Again, starting zone, as the Valley of Trials. The Blood Elves deals with Wretched on their starting zone, the Draenei with Kael's Blood Elves and the Worgen aren't Alliance.

The Valley of Trials is the only direct Horde/Alliance conflict in all the starting zones.

EDIT: None of those three races were part of a main faction at the beginning of the game, to be correct.

A meager quest mobs to be harvested instead of the centaurs that occupied this place before! How could I possibly forget?

This should get Alliance's faction pride up and running again!

Newsflash- -this isn't Europa Universalis where gameplay boners are had from each provincional advancement.

[Aquamonkey]

As far as I remember my Forsaken playthroughs, we -as a Horde- get to wipe out the defenders as they try to make it to the shore following being exposed during reconaissance.

You are sent into Fenris Keep to kill/convert them, but they drink Worgen blood and Agatha pulls you out in a retreat. Those forces you wipe out on the lake are offensive units they are sending out from Fenris.

As far as I can tell, Horde never goes back and finishes the job at Fenris Keep.

EDIT: I flew over the island and inside the keep is empty (still has Alliance shields all over the walls), but the island itself (inside and outside the walls) is crawling with Hillsbrad Refugees. I didn't do any of the quests on that toon.

[seije]

Again, starting zone, as the Valley of Trials. The Blood Elves deals with Wretched on their starting zone, the Draenei with Kael's Blood Elves and the Worgen aren't Alliance.

The Valley of Trials is the only direct Horde/Alliance conflict in all the starting zones.

EDIT: None of those three races were part of a main faction at the beginning of the game, to be correct.

Forgive me, it's been a while since i've played through the orc starting zone, but i thought the Alliance stuff was happening right outside the valley of trials, not the valley itself?

Durotar is also invaded by the Alliance. It's the only starting zone that a race have to deal directly with the other faction attacks.

If your point was to show that the 'other' faction is strong enough to be a threat even in your starting zone, then I'm pretty sure you don't have to be part of the alliance/horde for foreign combatants to be considered an 'other faction.' And by seeing these attacks, it does show that the horde/alliance are a threat.

[Deleted]

Forgive me, it's been a while since i've played through the orc starting zone, but i thought the Alliance stuff was happening right outside the valley of trials, not the valley itself?

It's right from the second quest, where the orcs have to kill stealth humans inside the Valley itself.

If your point was to show that the 'other' faction is strong enough to be a threat even in your starting zone, then I'm pretty sure you don't have to be part of the alliance/horde for foreign combatants to be considered an 'other faction.' And by seeing these attacks, it does show that the horde/alliance are a threat.

I do agree with that. Beside the Draenei, which 1-20 conflict has nothing to do with the Horde, both Alliance and Horde are extremely imperialistic.

[KrazyK923]

You are sent into Fenris Keep to kill/convert them, but they drink Worgen blood and Agatha pulls you out in a retreat. Those forces you wipe out on the lake are offensive units they are sending out from Fenris.

As far as I can tell, Horde never goes back and finishes the job at Fenris Keep.

EDIT: I flew over the island and inside the keep is empty (still has Alliance shields all over the walls), but the island itself (inside and outside the walls) is crawling with Hillsbrad Refugees. I didn't do any of the quests on that toon.

Here is why I can't take you seriously. You've brought up Fenris Keep what, 3 times now? Please show me where this Alliance "Fortress" is ever used against the Forsaken in any capacity? You utterly decimate their forces there. You kill the majority of those NPCs you see during that quest later on in the zone. You push the Gilneans back out of Silverpine. So because there are Alliance NPCs wandering around the island doing nothing means that's an Alliance victory?

Are you fucking being serious here? No, really. Are you? Because, if so, you are reaching so goddamn hard you're liable to pull a muscle.

Fenris Keep's "threat" is brought up and dealt with entirely in the Silverpine storyline. It is never mentioned again and Sylvanas is apparently fine with moving on to Andorhal (Which is after the Silverpine storyline) instead of dealing with the VERY DIRE THREAT of Fenris Isle.

Give me a fucking break.

I've also noticed you guys bringing up the random lowbie mobs have seemingly transcended from "victories" to just "appearances." Of course the Alliance shows up in Horde zones. The Horde is invading Alliance all over Azeroth. And guess what? The Alliance loses in every single one. And not only that, they are often shown to be so woefully incompetent that platoons of soldiers are taken out by one person. I know us players are more powerful than Foot Soldier/Grunt X, but holy shit, the Forsaken player takes out the vast majority of Stormpike soldiers in Hillsbrad by themselves alone.

[Aquamonkey]

Here is why I can't take you seriously. You've brought up Fenris Keep what, 3 times now? Please show me where this Alliance "Fortress" is ever used against the Forsaken in any capacity? You utterly decimate their forces there. You kill the majority of those NPCs you see during that quest later on in the zone. You push the Gilneans back out of Silverpine. So because there are Alliance NPCs wandering around the island doing nothing means that's an Alliance victory?

Are you fucking being serious here? No, really. Are you? Because, if so, you are reaching so goddamn hard you're liable to pull a muscle.

So because you are forced to flee, then later stop their offensive across the water that means they no longer hold the keep? If Horde never go in and finish the job, of course the Alliance still fucking hold the keep. They aren't just going to keel over as a courtesy.

[KrazyK923]

So because you are forced to flee, then later stop their offensive across the water that means they no longer hold the keep? If Horde never go in and finish the job, of course they still fucking hold the keep. They aren't just going to keel over as a courtesy.

Dude, the "threat" of Fenris Keep is never brought up again after you slaughter all of their Worgen forces. Good thing the Alliance is reinforcing the Keep and launching attacks on Undercity, amirite?

Good thing the Alliance has been using Fenris Keep to begin retaking Silverpine, amirite?

Good thing the Alliance has been fortifiying Fenris Keep in order to force a pyrrhic victory for the Horde, who are so afraid of Fenris Keep's threat, amirite?

How the fuck you consider this an Alliance victory boggles my mind. Are you also ignoring the story of why people are there? They didn't do so in an effort to invade Forsaken lands. They fled there after the Forsaken buttfucked Southshore with their plague.

Do I need to repeat it for whateverthenumberth time? Fenris Keep is never mentioned again as a "threat" after that quest where you mow down the Worgen forces. Ever. Anywhere.

[Talen]

While I don't agree with everything said here, I think this post from the US forums sums up quite a bit

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6444?page=4#79

EJL
+++
Zarhym,

The issue the Alliance playerbase is having is, well... Despite what the devs feel and think (not to discount their opinions, but turnabout is fair play), the vocal group spread throughout the fan sites, forums in both US and EU, as well as Scrolls of Lore and the various twitter bugs, have been very clear.

We don't care about victories. They are not, and never really were, the issue. Cataclysm is a good example of this. The Alliance won quite a bit of Ashenvale, for instance. It didn't matter. Yes, some "visible" victories would be nice.

But the problem is, the victories are not the things that matter. Story representation, over-homogenization of our races (Elune being retconed to use the light, Stormwind banner being used to represent the Alliance) lack of racial representation, lack of faction identity, lack of story presentation and explanation (High King is a prime example. The Story teams claim it's like the Supreme Allied Commander and has no other benefits. So why change his title from Supreme Allied Commander, which he had?), lack of respect for characters and races. I'll point to Tyrande and the Night Elves in general for that one.

We get that our voices shouldn't be taken for gospel. It IS your (your being Blizzard, of course) story, after all. But what you've "been" doing has largely made the problems worse for the last two expansions. The player complaints haven't lightened up, the same fan sites and forums go on about the same things.

We don't doubt that Blizzard "wants" to make Alliance fans happy. But, yes.. We have to question how much of our feedback is received when at least two occasions the feedback that was said to have been received....wasn't the feedback that was given (Tyrande and players not liking her being fierce, and players not liking espionage in 5.3).

We know it's your story. We know that you may or may not agree with what we are telling you the problem is.

However, and I can't state enough how much I don't mean this to sound as harsh as it is.... It's really, really, really, not fair to those fans who "have" given you years worth of feedback that go, in many ways, directly against the way things have panned out to have a developer come out and say "Pssh, we tried to give them all these awesome moments. Look at all these strings of victories! There really isn't pleasing the Alliance. I mean, come on, what else can we do! We are trying to not alienate the Horde!"

It's... It's wrong. We have, as a group, told you the issues. The issues have, more or less, been universally agreed on throughout the fanbase that is active throughout the various stories when interested in the lore (to be fair, many of those sites intermingle). The way to go about those goals? Certainly a case of the fans not agreeing with each other... But the core issues? It's not a small percentage of forum users saying it.

I don't think that most of the Alliance believes that Blizzard is intentionally trying to screw the Alliance over. And, I can even, on some level, see what Blizzard is trying to do with the Siege and the victories.

But here's the problem.. By giving us those victories, our feedback on those issues that exist will be drowned out as "whining". Issues that still exist. That will continue to exist, and that fans have no way of knowing on if it reaches the Devs (and, I'm sorry, but when every time they say something on "come on Alliance" misses the point, it looks like they don't get it) will continue to give it, but in the end, it will be brushed aside.

Just like it is now by many of the Horde players. By, seemingly, Kosak. Yes... We are raiding Org. Yes... .We are killing Garrosh. Then what? The Alliance didn't particularly come together, though you guys say they did. They didn't have any "strife" to begin with outside of the Council, and then that was never resolved even in Blood in the Snow.

It's something you guys say, but show no evidence. The Alliance is, more or less, in the same place it was in Wrath. Varian as the Supreme Allied Commander, the other races...doing something? It's never really shown, explained, and the over abundance of humans in the story line kind of...makes the faction feel hollow? The difference is, of course, dalaran... But, to be honest, it doesn't change the position in the story. The Alliance is still in teh same place. A bunch of races that get along, with no strife shown, and following a guy who, by all acounts, is only getting the job because he's a human for nostolgia's sake.

What it boils down to is, by saying "The Alliance just can't be pleased" while not even acknowledging the very real and very prevailant feedback given, you guys are kinda saying how ungrateful that guy dying of thirst is from getting upset when he asked for water only to be given a slice of pie.

Sure, pie is...nice? But that guy is still dying of thirst. And while the Alliance may win, they are still sitting in the same place as they were in Wrath. No identity. No racial tension. No flavor. No progression.

And like pie, when you are not dying of thirst, no one will complain about victories.. But when they are? Pie is "really" the last thing that people want.

[Aquamonkey]

I've also noticed you guys bringing up the random lowbie mobs have seemingly transcended from "victories" to just "appearances." Of course the Alliance shows up in Horde zones. The Horde is invading Alliance all over Azeroth. And guess what? The Alliance loses in every single one. And not only that, they are often shown to be so woefully incompetent that platoons of soldiers are taken out by one person. I know us players are more powerful than Foot Soldier/Grunt X, but holy shit, the Forsaken player takes out the vast majority of Stormpike soldiers in Hillsbrad by themselves alone.

Now you're complaining about PCs being able to mow down mobs?

[KrazyK923]

Now you're complaining about PCs being able to mow down mobs?

No, I'm talking about how after that quest is done, the "threat" of Fenris Isle is never brought up again. Despite you claiming its an Alliance "fortress just outside of UC." As if it has any bearing on the Alliance's hold, or lackthereof, in Lordaeron. Its not, and the fact that you keep pretending it is an absolute joke.

And the Alliance won in Darkshore? Woo boy, they killed those Trolls that invaded their lands. They succeeded in their effort to...not be wiped out? Yay, they came out exactly the same as they have before! Its similar, but still a tad different, to saying the Alliance won Gilneas because they pushed the Forsaken out. Shockingly, when you look at something with absolutely no context, it looks great.

VICTORY! /trumpets

[Aquamonkey]

No, I'm talking about how after that quest is done, the "threat" of Fenris Isle is never brought up again. Despite you claiming its an Alliance "fortress just outside of UC." As if it has any bearing on the Alliance's hold, or lackthereof, in Lordaeron. Its not, and the fact that you keep pretending it is an absolute joke.

You can try to dismiss it all you like, but he fact remains that Fenris Keep remains in Alliance hands. Unless you can show me where they lost it.

And the Alliance won in Darkshore? Woo boy, they killed those Trolls that invaded their lands. They succeeded in their effort to...not be wiped out? Yay, they came out exactly the same as they have before! Its similar, but still a tad different, to saying the Alliance won Gilneas because they pushed the Forsaken out. Shockingly, when you look at something with absolutely no context, it looks great.

VICTORY! /trumpets

Alliance considered it pretty victorious when they pushed the orc invaders out of their lands. Or do you not consider them victorious until the Alliance go through to Draenor?

- - - Updated - - -

While I don't agree with everything said here, I think this post from the US forums sums up quite a bot

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6444?page=4#79

EJL

I hope you got all your friends to vote it up so it doesn't get buried in garbage.

[Anjerith]

The post by "EJL" is pretty much just restating "We want Alliance Victories to show on the world.", except it is stated that isn't what he is saying (even though it is) and it is beat around the bush as much as could be imagined before getting right back to that point.

The Alliance has a pretty fair share of the gameworld, the Horde does too. Just deal with it and play. I am 100% only interested in the story as a reason to keep playing and it is pretty awesome from my neutral-non-faction based view. You have to take it as a whole, not just what you see in-game guys. The games that tried to show progressive story elements by altering the world constantly have failed due to the silent masses not liking the changes. (AC being a prime example) Just because it is an issue people like to harp about online doesn't make it a major thing - it makes it the issue your enjoying harping on.

[Deleted]

The post by "EJL" is pretty much just restating "We want Alliance Victories to show on the world.", except it is stated that isn't what he is saying (even though it is) and it is beat around the bush as much as could be imagined before getting right back to that point.

The Alliance has a pretty fair share of the gameworld, the Horde does too. Just deal with it and play. I am 100% only interested in the story as a reason to keep playing and it is pretty awesome from my neutral-non-faction based view. You have to take it as a whole, not just what you see in-game guys. The games that tried to show progressive story elements by altering the world constantly have failed due to the silent masses not liking the changes. (AC being a prime example) Just because it is an issue people like to harp about online doesn't make it a major thing - it makes it the issue your enjoying harping on.

I think I finally found Zarhym's MMO-champ sockpuppet account.

"You have to take it as a whole, not just what you see in-game guys." --------Seeing fun beyond every material layer of the in-game content? Sorry, but I want an immersive, enjoyable product - NOT a religion.

[Combatbutler]

I think I finally found Zarhym's MMO-champ sockpuppet account.

"You have to take it as a whole, not just what you see in-game guys." --------Seeing fun beyond every material layer of the in-game content? Sorry, but I want an immersive, enjoyable product - NOT a religion.

Then you will never happy to be honest, either the Horde or Alliance get better content, in classic Alliance was far more fleshed out and that changed through the expansions, since cata the horde gets "better" content but the lore as a whole keeps it somewhat balanced.

[khalltusk]

Did anyone notice in the interview it was said the dragons had their powers for 50k years. :S